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  #201  
Old 07-07-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I understand Don Juan is an HE ( or Excelentísimo Señor) because he is a son of an infanta of Spain and, therefore, is given the same style of a grandee. However, if I am not mistaken, his hereditary title of viscount is not attached to a grandeeship of Spain. Does that mean that his heir ( the future viscount) will be only Ilustrísimo Señor ?
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Maybe his HE was acquired by marriage. Again I don’t think the title of Vuscount de La Torre is attached to a grandeeship, but I may be wrong . Does anybody know ?
I agree. Which titles are attached to grandeeships can be looked up from the Diputacion de la Grandeza's search form.
» Guía de Títulos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The infantas were granted Life peerages upon marriage, meaning neither Lugo or Palma could be inherited. Their kids are don/donna as kids of infantas and that is all they will be.
In today's Spain, even commoners may be called Doña/Don. Children of Infantas/Infantes, assuming they do not enjoy royal status themselves, may be styled with the special honorific Su Excelencia Doña/Don or Excelentísima Señora Doña/Excelentísimo Señor Don.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
Wasnt the duKe of Calabria created an Infante by the King in recognition for being the heir to spain at one time? That might explain why his wife is not an infanta

By the Royal Decree 1368/1987 of King Juan Carlos, the children of the King/Queen (apart from the Prince/Princess of Asturias) and the children of the Prince/Princess of Asturias are automatically qualified as Infanta/Infante of Spain, but otherwise, new grants of the title of Infanta/Infante are to be made in "exceptional circumstances" only. (ETA: This represented a substantial change from the tradition of creating all dynastic spouses of Infantas/Infantes and dynastic grandchildren of reigning kings and queens Infanta/Infante.)

According to the Royal Decree creating HRH Carlos de Borbón-Dos Sicilias an Infante of Spain, the "exceptional circumstances" were that he was the representative of a dynastic line connected historically to the Crown of Spain. I suppose no "exceptional circumstances" were relevant to his wife, and she was not created an Infanta for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
The current Infantas of Spain (by birth). are:
  • Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo (eldest daughter of Juan Carlos and Sofía, King and Queen of Spain);
  • Infanta Cristina, Duchess of Palma de Mallorca (youngest daughter of Juan Carlos and Sofía, King and Queen of Spain);
  • Infanta Leonor of Spain (eldest daughter of Felipe and Letizia, Princes of Asturias);
  • Infanta Sofia of Spain (younger daughter of Felipe and Letizia, Princes of Asturias);
  • Infanta Pilar, Duchess of Badajoz (eldest sister of King Juan Carlos of Spain);
  • Infanta Margarita, Duchess of Soria (youngest sister of King Juan Carlos of Spain);
All of the Infantas/Infantes are "of Spain", although the territorial designation is typically unused within the country.
Los hijos del Rey que no tengan la condición de Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias y los hijos de este Príncipe o Princesa serán Infantes de España y recibirán el tratamiento de Alteza Real. Sus consortes, mientras lo sean o permanezcan viudos, tendrán el tratamiento y honores que el Rey, por vía de gracia, les conceda en uso de la facultad que le atribuye el apartado f) del artículo 62 de la Constitución.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284
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  #202  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:48 PM
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One thing I'm not sure if if the future wife of HE Don Felipe de Marichalar can be styled HE Doña X ?
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  #203  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
One thing I'm not sure if if the future wife of HE Don Felipe de Marichalar can be styled HE Doña X ?

I am not sure either, but I think she can. Normally the wife of a grandee is also entitled to the style of Excellency. The text of the Royal Decree is somewhat ambiguous because it doesn't explicitly say that the children of Infantes are grandees; instead, the text only says that the children of Infantes enjoy "the consideration of grandees". In practical terms, most legal experts I researched say there is no difference, except that the "consideration of grandee" is not hereditary. Hence, Froilán's children for example won't be HEs.
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  #204  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
One thing I'm not sure if if the future wife of HE Don Felipe de Marichalar can be styled HE Doña X ?
Yes, she would be. At the wedding of the Prince and Princess of Asturias in 2004, all spouses of non-royal children of Infantas were styled Excma. Señora/Excmo. Señor.


Children of Infantas:

Excma. Señora Doña Simoneta Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Juan Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón
Vizconde de la Torre [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Bruno Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Fernando Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña María Zurita y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta Margarita]

Excma. Señora Doña Sandra Torlonia
Condesa Lequio di Assaba [daughter of Infanta Beatriz]

Excmo. Señor Don Marco Torlonia
Príncipe de Civitella-Cesi [son of Infanta Beatriz]

Excma. Señora Doña Olimpia Torlonia [daughter of Infanta Beatriz]

Excma. Señora Doña María Teresa Marone y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta María Cristina]

Spouses of the children of Infantas:

Excmo. Señor Don José Miguel Fernández Sastrón [son-in-law of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña Bárbara Cano de la Plaza [daughter-in-law of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña Emanuela Pratolongo, Viuda de Borbón Dampierre [daughter-in-law of Infante Jaime]

Excma. Señora Blagena Svitakova [daughter-in-law of Infanta Beatriz]

Grandchildren of Infantes/Infantas:

Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú [grandson of Infante Jaime]

Excmo. Señor Don Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón y Parodi Delfino [grandson of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]

Señor Don Juan de Bagration y Ulloa [grandson of Infanta Mercedes]

Spouses of the grandchildren of Infantes/Infantas:

Excma. Señora Doña Giovanna San Martino d'Aglie di San Germano [granddaughter-in-law of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]

Señora Doña Floriane del Río y Thorn [granddaughter-in-law of Infanta Mercedes]

Source: http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/...osCatedral.pdf
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  #205  
Old 08-14-2020, 05:14 PM
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The title of the King of Spain is as follows:

Note: Titles marked with * are titles in pretence, historical titles which are only nominal and ceremonial.

"King of Spain
King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies* (Naples and Sicily), of Jerusalem*, of Navarre, of Granada, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Majorca, of Seville, of Sardinia*, of Córdoba, of Corsica*, of Murcia, of Menorca, of Jaén, of the Algarves*, of Algeciras, of the Canary Islands, of the East Indies* and the West Indies* and of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea*;
Archduke of Austria*;
Duke of Burgundy*, of Brabant*, of Milan*, of Athens*, of Neopatras* (New Patras) and of Limburg*;
Count of Habsburg*, of Flanders*, of Tyrol*, of Roussillon* and of Barcelona;
Lord of Biscay and of Molina."
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  #206  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes, she would be. At the wedding of the Prince and Princess of Asturias in 2004, all spouses of non-royal children of Infantas were styled Excma. Señora/Excmo. Señor.


Children of Infantas:

Excma. Señora Doña Simoneta Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Juan Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón
Vizconde de la Torre [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Bruno Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excmo. Señor Don Fernando Gómez-Acebo y de Borbón [son of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña María Zurita y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta Margarita]

Excma. Señora Doña Sandra Torlonia
Condesa Lequio di Assaba [daughter of Infanta Beatriz]

Excmo. Señor Don Marco Torlonia
Príncipe de Civitella-Cesi [son of Infanta Beatriz]

Excma. Señora Doña Olimpia Torlonia [daughter of Infanta Beatriz]

Excma. Señora Doña María Teresa Marone y de Borbón [daughter of Infanta María Cristina]
Spouses of the children of Infantas:

Excmo. Señor Don José Miguel Fernández Sastrón [son-in-law of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña Bárbara Cano de la Plaza [daughter-in-law of Infanta Pilar]

Excma. Señora Doña Emanuela Pratolongo, Viuda de Borbón Dampierre [daughter-in-law of Infante Jaime]

Excma. Señora Blagena Svitakova [daughter-in-law of Infanta Beatriz]
Grandchildren of Infantes/Infantas:

Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú [grandson of Infante Jaime]

Excmo. Señor Don Alvaro Jaime de Orleans-Borbón y Parodi Delfino [grandson of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]

Señor Don Juan de Bagration y Ulloa [grandson of Infanta Mercedes]
Spouses of the grandchildren of Infantes/Infantas:

Excma. Señora Doña Giovanna San Martino d'Aglie di San Germano [granddaughter-in-law of Infante Alfonso de Orleans]

Señora Doña Floriane del Río y Thorn [granddaughter-in-law of Infanta Mercedes]
Source: http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/...osCatedral.pdf



Under the royal decree 1368/1987, children of infantes/infantas have the consideration of Grandees of Spain and, as such, they are entitled to the style of Excelentísimo(a) Señor(a). Their spouses, per the Spanish custom, take the rank and style of their husbands or wives and, as such, are also Excelentísimo(a) Señor(a).


I don't get, however, the use of the style of Excellency for grandchildren of infantes, unless they are themselves the eldest child of a hereditary Grandee, or married to one, or otherwise are Knights/Dames with Collar or Knights/Dames Grand Cross of a Spanish order or hold some public office that carries with it the style of Excellency. Prince Felipe's wedding guest list is not always consistent, however, with respect to styles.
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  #207  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I don't get, however, the use of the style of Excellency for grandchildren of infantes, unless they are themselves the eldest child of a hereditary Grandee, or married to one, or otherwise are Knights/Dames with Collar or Knights/Dames Grand Cross of a Spanish order or hold some public office that carries with it the style of Excellence. Prince Felipe's wedding guest list is not always consistent, however, with respect to styles.
The grandchildren for whom Excelentísima/Excelentísimo is used in the list are children of HRHs. Note that it was not used for Juan de Bagration, whose father's title of pretense was apparently not legally recognized in Spain, so I think it is consistent in this regard.
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  #208  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
The title of the King of Spain is as follows:

Note: Titles marked with * are titles in pretence, historical titles which are only nominal and ceremonial.

King of Spain
King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies* (Naples and Sicily), of Jerusalem*, of Navarre, of Granada, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Majorca, of Seville, of Sardinia*, of Córdoba, of Corsica*, of Murcia, of Menorca, of Jaén, of the Algarves*, of Algeciras, of the Canary Islands, of the East Indies* and the West Indies* and of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea*;
Archduke of Austria*;
Duke of Burgundy*, of Brabant*, of Milan*, of Athens*, of Neopatras* (New Patras) and of Limburg*;
Count of Habsburg*, of Flanders*, of Tyrol*, of Roussillon* and of Barcelona;
Lord of Biscay and of Molina
What happened to all the titles from the New World Empire? Or is that "Mainland of the Ocean Sea"?
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  #209  
Old 05-06-2021, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Letizia falls under a dfferent category. Before Felipe's accession to the throne she was HRH The Princess of Asturias, and also Princess of Girona, Princess of Viana, Duchess of Montblanc, Countess of Cervera and Lady of Balaguer, since, under the RD 1368/1987, the wife of the Prince of Asturias shares all of her husband's titles and styles. [...]
My reading of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 is that HM Queen and HRH Princess of Asturias are the only titles which the King or Prince of Asturias shares with his wife.

Quote:
1. The Crowned head is known as the King or Queen of Spain and may use other titles appertaining to the Crown, including those other noble dignities pertaining to the Royal House. He is styled Majesty.

2. The consort of the King of Spain, during his lifetime and while she remains widowed, is entitled Queen and bears the style Majesty, and bears all honors corresponding to her dignity (position) as established by juridical ordinances.

[...]

The heir to the throne, from the time of his birth or the event conferring this position upon him, shall hold the title of Prince or Princess of Asturias, as well as the other titles traditionally held by the heir to the throne and all honors corresponding thereto. He is styled Royal Highness. Of equal dignity and style is his consort, who also hold all honors as established by juridical ordinances.
The "other noble dignities pertaining to the Royal House" and "the other titles traditionally held by the heir to the throne" are mentioned only to pertain to the King or the Prince, not to his wife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
What happened to all the titles from the New World Empire? Or is that "Mainland of the Ocean Sea"?
The titles have been unchanged since the early 19th century or earlier, according to the website of the Royal House, so I suppose the titles were never expanded further than that.
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  #210  
Old 05-06-2021, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
My reading of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 is that HM Queen and HRH Princess of Asturias are the only titles which the King or Prince of Asturias shares with his wife.

The "other noble dignities pertaining to the Royal House" and "the other titles traditionally held by the heir to the throne" are mentioned only to pertain to the King or the Prince, not to his wife.
Read it a couple of times. You might be right; I guess it depends on how 'of equal dignity and style' is to be interpreted for at least the wife or husband of the Prince(ss) de Asturias. If we assume that all titles are inherently intertwined with the 'dignity'; the spouse would also hold those titles. If it only refers to 'Prince(ss) of Asturias' he/she wouldn't.

A quick Google search found one reference (at a blog, so nothing official; but it is hard to find something not related to the current princess of Girona) to 'The Prince and Princess of Asturias and Girona'
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  #211  
Old 05-06-2021, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Read it a couple of times. You might be right; I guess it depends on how 'of equal dignity and style' is to be interpreted for at least the wife or husband of the Prince(ss) de Asturias. If we assume that all titles are inherently intertwined with the 'dignity'; the spouse would also hold those titles. If it only refers to 'Prince(ss) of Asturias' he/she wouldn't.
In the article of the Royal Decree pertaining to the heir(ess) and their spouse, it is "Prince or Princess of Asturias" which is designated as a "Dignidad", and it is "Royal Highness" which is designated as a "tratamiento".

The article then states that the spouse shares the Dignidad and tratamiento. In contrast, it does not state that the spouse shares "los demás titulos vinculados tradicionalmente al Sucesor de la Corona".
El heredero de la Corona tendrá desde su nacimiento o desde que se produzca el hecho que origine el llamamiento la Dignidad de Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias, así como los demás titulos vinculados tradicionalmente al Sucesor de la Corona y los honores que como tal le correspondan. Recibirá el tratamiento de Alteza Real. De igual Dignidad y tratamiento participara su consorte, recibiendo los honores que se establezcan en el ordenamiento jurídico.
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  #212  
Old 05-06-2021, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In the article of the Royal Decree pertaining to the heir(ess) and their spouse, it is "Prince or Princess of Asturias" which is designated as a "Dignidad", and it is "Royal Highness" which is designated as a "tratamiento".

The article then states that the spouse shares the Dignidad and tratamiento. In contrast, it does not state that the spouse shares "los demás titulos vinculados tradicionalmente al Sucesor de la Corona".
El heredero de la Corona tendrá desde su nacimiento o desde que se produzca el hecho que origine el llamamiento la Dignidad de Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias, así como los demás titulos vinculados tradicionalmente al Sucesor de la Corona y los honores que como tal le correspondan. Recibirá el tratamiento de Alteza Real. De igual Dignidad y tratamiento participara su consorte, recibiendo los honores que se establezcan en el ordenamiento jurídico.
I read it closely at least 5 times in Spanish before posting previously, so I understand where you are coming from. I am mainly trying to explore alternative options. The 'así como' could be interpreted as being an intrinsical part of the Dignidad of the Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias. Or, another way to look at it, is that the heir also has the other titles as 'dignity' (Leonor for example has the dignity of 'princess of Asturias and Girona'), so if their spouse participates in the same dignity, they automatically also have those other titles that are part of that dignity.

I do, however, wonder about the 'honors that are established in the juridical system; did they want more flexibility in regards to the honors the king/queen-consort and consort of the heir would receive; or are the honors that are traditionally bestowed upon the monarch and his/her heir also part of the same system? (but that makes less sense as different wording is used)
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  #213  
Old 05-06-2021, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I read it closely at least 5 times in Spanish before posting previously, so I understand where you are coming from. I am mainly trying to explore alternative options. The 'así como' could be interpreted as being an intrinsical part of the Dignidad of the Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias. Or, another way to look at it, is that the heir also has the other titles as 'dignity' (Leonor for example has the dignity of 'princess of Asturias and Girona'), so if their spouse participates in the same dignity, they automatically also have those other titles that are part of that dignity.
Thank you for clarifying; since I quoted from an English translation and did not explain my interpretation of the Spanish wording I was not sure if it was understandable.

I understand your alternative interpretation you propose now. Still, it seems to me that the interpretation that subsidiary titles are not to be shared with the spouse would be in the same spirit as the queen consort being "only" Queen whereas her husband is King "of Spain".
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  #214  
Old 05-07-2021, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I read it closely at least 5 times in Spanish before posting previously, so I understand where you are coming from. I am mainly trying to explore alternative options. The 'así como' could be interpreted as being an intrinsical part of the Dignidad of the Príncipe o Princesa de Asturias. Or, another way to look at it, is that the heir also has the other titles as 'dignity' (Leonor for example has the dignity of 'princess of Asturias and Girona'), so if their spouse participates in the same dignity, they automatically also have those other titles that are part of that dignity.

I do, however, wonder about the 'honors that are established in the juridical system; did they want more flexibility in regards to the honors the king/queen-consort and consort of the heir would receive; or are the honors that are traditionally bestowed upon the monarch and his/her heir also part of the same system? (but that makes less sense as different wording is used)
There are two Royal Decrees, "General Order of Precedence in the State" and "Military Honors". The first marks the positions in the State protocol, the second the military salutes (anthem, flag, cannon shots) that each member of the Royal Family receives at official events.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1983-21534
https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2010-8188
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  #215  
Old 06-11-2021, 12:53 AM
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https://www.lainformacion.com/espana...TXPwFHneF46j3/

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_VI_de_Espa%C3%B1a

The historical titles of the King of Spain are:
King of Spain.
King of Castile, Leon, Aragon, the Two Sicilies, Jerusalem, Navarra, Granada, Toledo, Valencia, Galicia, Mallorca, Seville, Sardinia, Cordoba, Corsica, Murcia , from Jaén, from the Algarves, from Algeciras, from Gibraltar, from the Canary Islands, from the East and West Indies and from the Islands and Tierra Firme del Mar Oceano (Referring to Spanish America and the Spanish Empire in Asia and Oceania. )
Archduke of Austria.
Duke of Burgundy and Brabant, Milan, Athens and Neopatria.
Marquis of Oristan.
Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Barcelona, ​​Roussillon, Cerdanya and Gocéano.
Lord of Vizcaya and Molina.

King of Hungary, Dalmatia and Croatia.
Duke of Limburg, Lotharingia, Luxembourg, Gelderland, Styria, Carniola, Carinthia and Württemberg.
Landgrave of Alsace.
Prince of Swabia.
Palatine Count of Burgundy.
Count of Artois, Hainaut, Namur, Gorizia, Ferrete and Kyburgo.
Margrave of the Holy Roman Empire and Burgau.
Lord of Salins, of Mechelen, of the Slovenian Brand, of Pordenone and of Tripoli.
He can also use the title of Catholic King.
As head of state, the Spanish Constitution confers on him the supreme command of the Armed Forces, holding the job of captain general, together with the high patronage of the Royal Academies. The king is a grand master of the military orders and other minor military orders or decorations of Spain. He is also the honorary president of the Organization of Ibero-American States.
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Old 06-11-2021, 01:13 AM
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Remember that Felipe VI descends from Bermundo I of Asturias, in a direct line to this day and that he is related to all the European royal houses (practically) because the children of Juana I (children of Isabel and Fernando, the Catholic kings), Carlos I of Spain and V as emperor of the SIRG and his brother Fernando I also emperor of the SIRG, they married their own children between them and also, Fernando I had 15 children who were married both with the Spanish kings-princes-princess, as with the Germans and Portuguese or French. The origin of the different royal houses are the Catholic kings, Isabel I of Castile and Fernando II of Aragon.
Actually the surname Borbón, is a marriage pact between Spanish and French.
The first Bourbon, Henry IV, was the son of Queen Juana III of Navarre (nowadays, Eleanor will not give her offspring the surname of her husband, but rather "Bourbon", but at this time yes) and married to María de Medici that she was the granddaughter Ferdinand I emperor of the SIRG and great-granddaughter of Juana I "la loca" ; her son Luis XIII of France, second Bourbon, marries the Infanta of Spain and Portugal, Ana de Asutria daughter of Felipe III of Spain , and they had Louis XIV (The third Bourbon in France) who married the Spanish Infanta María Teresa; so the French Bourbons have almost more Spanish than French blood, since their wives were all either Spanish or descendants of the Catholic kings, Isabel and Fernando.
Hope it's understandable and not too messy. Thanks.

PD: another daughter of Juana I of Castile "La loca", Leonor, married Christian II of Denmark with whom she had among other children, Dorotea of Denmark (1520-1580), she married in 1534 with the Palatine Duke Federico II.
Cristina of Denmark (1521-1590) who married in 1534 with Count Francesco Sforza of Milan, and in 1541 with Count Francisco I of Lorraine.
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  #217  
Old 06-12-2021, 04:40 PM
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Sorry, it is not Leonor but Isabel who marries Christian II of Denmark. In fact, Isabella the daughter of the Danish princes herderos, is called this way by this queen and Spanish infanta
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