Bowing and Curtseying


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Artemisia said:
):

- A Queen Consort must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant).
- A Queen Mother must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant), as well as the current Queen Consort.
- A Queen Dowager must only curtsey to Reigning Heads of State (Kings and Queens Regnant), as well as the current Queen Consort, and the Queen Mother.
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Have we ever seen Queen Sonja or Queen Silvia curtsey to QMII? They do see each other rather frequently so if this is the case photographic evidence of a consort needing to make a curtsey to a regnant must be available. I don't recall either Sonja or Marie Therese dropping a curtsey to QEII at the Windsor luncheon.
Is there any photograph of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother or Queen Ingrid or Queen Fabiola ever dropping a curtsey to a visiting reigning monarch. Once widowed they all attended many state events for visiting foreign sovereigns so there should be photographic evidence of this requirement to curtsey.
 
If William had been invested as Prince of Wales, she would remain the Princess of Wales, no?

If William had not been invested, I believe she would be the Duchess of Cambridge.
 
The Master of the Household said at the time of Williams wedding that although Buckingham Palace is frequently asked for a copy of the official protocol book no such book exists, that protocol is really just a question of good manners and what makes sense at the time.
 
Back a few pages ago there was a short video of a girl in TX preforming the very deep exaggerated bow, as I understand it something similar used to be done in England some time back. I read in a book that the women would almost sit back on their heels and then rise unaided when being presented to court/monarch.


LaRae
 
Right, that's the video I posted of the Texas curtsey, or Texas dip, as it's known. It's really low to the floor where the lady crosses her back leg and basically sits on her haunches while bowing deeply. There is an escort to assist them rising, though.
 
they are still outranked by Queens Regnant, so yes, they do have to curtsey to them.
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A Queen Consort is not required to curtsey to a Queen or King regnant. They share the style and designation of 'Majesty' and are thus on equal terms.

Queen Silvia of Sweden does not curtsey to Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain nor does Queen Sirikit of Thailand curtsey to Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands. Queen Paola of Belgium does not curtsey to King Juan Carlos of Spain and Queen Sofia of Spain does not curtsey to King Harald of Norway.
 
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Artemisia said:
- A Queen Regnant (or any Head of State) doesn't curtsey to anyone.
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Just to clarify does this mean that a Queen Regnant would not ever have to curtsey to an Emperor? Would an Emperor who is an imperial majesty not outrank her? Or are they equal because they are both heads of state? Sorry if these questions sound dumb.
 
They are the same rank. If you saw the Jubilee luncheon at Windsor QEII definitely did not curtsey to any of her guests including the Emperor and Empress of Japan.
 
Even Prince Albert of Monaco, as ruler of his own country, isn't obliged to bow to another sovereign even though he's a prince. If he did so to the Queen of England or Emperor of Japan, I'd think it more a matter of respect than protocol.
 
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Noble Consort Ming said:
Just to clarify does this mean that a Queen Regnant would not ever have to curtsey to an Emperor? Would an Emperor who is an imperial majesty not outrank her? Or are they equal because they are both heads of state? Sorry if these questions sound dumb.
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The question is not by any means dumb. :)

A Head of State is still Head of State - whatever his/her title. Thus, an Emperor, a King, a Queen Regnant, a Reining Prince, a Reigning Duke and a President all have equal rank as Heads of State. As such, a Queen Regnant would most definitely not be obliged to curtsey to an Emperor - or any other Head of State.

In past, an Emperor was a Monarch of vast lands which usually consisted of many territories and/or countries. Usually, Kings, Princes and Dukes were his vassals; obviously, he had precedence over them. However, nowadays that is no longer relevant, so all Heads of State (elected and hereditary) are equal in rank.

Now, their precedence depends on the day they assumed the office. That means the King of Thailand (who became Head of State in 1946) has the highest precedence among all Heads of States, followed by Queen Elizabeth (Monarch since 1952).
 
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Artemisia, could put here some reference on the queens consort's obligation by protocol to curtsy to the kings and queens regnant? I mean, it's obvious they are not heads of state and as such, not equal in status with the Sovereigns and republican heads of state but IMO it is customary that they take fully their husbands' status and precedence.
 
Do we have any picture of Kate curtseing?? The only I saw is at her wedding, paying respect to the Queen.
 
Artemisia said:
Princess Beatrice and Autumn Kelly (Peter Phillips' wife) curtseyed to Queen Elizabeth during Ascot 5.
- Princess Beatrice
- Autumn Kelly

I have to say, I much prefer the Countess of Wessex' and Princess Haya's graceful curtseys.
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In photos, I've seen I thought Beatrice & Sophie's curtseys were the same. They look like they are trying to sit down rather than a proper curtsey.

Autumn's had the right idea but hasn't aligned her legs.

Camilla, Kate, Princess Michael and Diana performed proper curtsey.
 
may sound naive, but where did this whole curtsy thing start from? i understand deference, but it all just seems so complicated... assisted, unassisted, cross leg, this and that. whew, just seems like hard work!!!
 
stella1971 said:
may sound naive, but where did this whole curtsy thing start from? i understand deference, but it all just seems so complicated... assisted, unassisted, cross leg, this and that. whew, just seems like hard work!!!
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The curtsey as we know it began in the 17th century, before that men and women both made some kind of bow when greeting others. As for the rituals of curtseying those seems to have been formed during the Victorian era (from Wikipedia), here's a page about the curtsey in the Victorian ballroom: Capering & Kickery: The Lady's Courtesy in the Victorian Ballroom

Queen Camilla said:
Autumn's had the right idea but hasn't aligned her legs.
http://imageupper.com/i/?S0700010030021K13406768261911532
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This photo of Autumn Phillips shows why it's best to cross the legs before doing the curtsey, especially when wearing a short tight skirt.
 
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I thought curtseying came way earlier than the Victorian era. Didn't women curtsey as a form of greeting to most everyone in the regency period like in Jane Austen flicks.

A French language source I have says curtseying goes back to the middle ages where it was done by a woman before dancing.

Edited to add: I just realized that the post above mine didn't say the curtsey came from Victorian times. I misread.
 
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I'm pretty sure curtesying has been around since the Middle Ages. It's really nothing new
 
wanderingnana said:
I'm pretty sure curtesying has been around since the Middle Ages. It's really nothing new
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From Wikipedia: According to Desmond Morris, the motions involved in the curtsey and the bow were similar until the 17th century, and the gender differentiation between the actions developed afterwards. (Curtsey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), before that the gesture was similar for both genders.

As for dancing in medieval times, those dances was not pair dances as we know now, the dancing then was group dances usually done in circles.
 
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Meraude said:
As for dancing in medieval times, those dances was not pair dances as we know now, the dancing then was group dances usually done in circles.
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You cited wiki as your source for the other info you posted which I snipped out. French language wiki says women curtsied before dancing in the middle ages. I do realize these were group dances put people were still lined up men with women.
 
Noble Consort Ming said:
You cited wiki as your source for the other info you posted which I snipped out. French language wiki says women curtsied before dancing in the middle ages. I do realize these were group dances put people were still lined up men with women.
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The medieval times stretches from the 5th to the 15th century so it's a very long period and the way people danced changed during that time, from circle dances to group dances with couples paired up towards the end of that period. I would think that both the male and the female performed some kind of bowing gesture when asking/accepting a paired dance, such as this: http://tinyurl.com/87tvg3x , but the curtsey with bended knees pointing outwards such as we know it today (well, perhaps not this deep), such as this: http://tinyurl.com/852prl6 , came later on, and males bowing with feet together like this: http://tinyurl.com/7zu4yt5

You could call the first one a curtsey-bow made by both men and women, the second a curtsey made only by women and the third a bow made by men and today also by women who don't want to curtsey.

One reason for why women began doing a downward curtsey instead of a forward bow from the waist could have been how the female dress changed to skirts with lots of petticoats and stiff material to keep the skirts very full, to make a forward bow could have the skirt to rise up from the ground at the back and show off more than the woman wanted.
 
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Meraude said:
One reason for why women began doing a downward curtsey instead of a forward bow from the waist could have been how the female dress changed to skirts with lots of petticoats and stiff material to keep the skirts very full, to make a forward bow could have the skirt to rise up from the ground at the back and show off more than the woman wanted.
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And don't forget the decolletage. I'm sure they didn't want to bend over in those heaving bosom dresses.

Thank you for your info, Meraude.
 
On a video on Youtube in regards the Queen's lunch with the heads of state. The Duchess of Cambridge is shown grasping the left shoulder of Princess Margarita of Romania, and then kissing both cheeks and curtseying. A fitting and appropriate touch to a senior royal.
 
Thailand

Hi! Let me talk about bowing and curtseying in Thailand.

This type of manner was introduced to Thailand (or “Siam”) in the reign of Rama III by westerners. However, since Siamese prostrate themselves at royals’ or nobles’ feet to pay respect, bowing and curtseying was really rare until the Siamese Revolution 1932 (reign of Rama VII.) The absolute monarchy changed to the constitutional monarchy. Then, the Revolutionary Council adjusted some of royal protocols including bowing and curtseying.
Some rules in Thailand

- Commoners must (yeah, I said “must”) bow/curtsey to the King, the Queen, and royal family members.
- Royals must bow/curtsey to the one who outranks.
- If the royals received bowing or curtseying from a royal who is older than them, they will do a “Wai” (Thai greeting: Thai greeting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) back, or vice versa.
- Also, royals may do a “Wai” to commoners they respect, and comnners must bow/curtsey back.
- Women wearing full dress uniforms would not curtsey but bow instead, (except female courtiers who would curtsey even though they wear uniforms.)

7DEC10 THAILAND ;4of4; The Social Function of Government Glorifies His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej in Occasion of the 83rd Birthday - YouTube

This video shows HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn did a “Wai” to her elder sister, Princess Ubolratana Rajakanya. Then Princess Ubolratana curtseyed to her younger sister immediately. (0:32)

After playing “Maha Chai” (Grand Victory) anthem (the amthem for senior royal family members,) Princess Ubonratana got into the car. As the car moved, everyone bowed/curtseyed to her, except HRH Princess Chulabhorn who just did a “Wai.” The reason is that HRH Princess Chulabhorn outranks her elder sister. (2:12)

HRH Princess Soamsawali curtseyed to HRH Princess Chulabhorn. (3:12)

FYI: By the palace act, HRH Princess Ubonratana Rajakanya lost her royal status because she had been married to an American. After she divorced and came back to Thailand, HM the King granted her as “Princess Ubonratana Rajakanya” with no “Her Royal Highness” style, and put her after her siblings and her aunts in order of precedence.

By the way, in some very traditional events or just they wanted to do so, we can see people prostrating themselves at the King's feet.
 
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At HM King Bhumibol of Thailand's Diamond Jubilee, you can see many princes and princesses bowing and curtseying. (From 30:00)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WT1cb8laeU&feature=related


1. HH Sayyid Shihab bin Tariq Taimour Al Said (Oman)
2. HRH The Duke of York (UK)
3. HH General Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed Al Nahyan (Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Deputy Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces)
4. TRH The Duke and Duchess of Brabant (Belgium)
5. TRH The Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Norway
6. HRH The Prince of Orange and HRH Princess Máxima (Netherlands)
7. HRH Chhoetse Penlop Jigme Khesar Namgyal Wangchuck (Now HM The King of Bhutan)
8. HRH The Crown Prince of Tonga (Now HM The King of Tonga)
9. HH Shaikh Khalifa bin Salman Al Khalifa (Bahrain)
10. HRH Princess Lalla Salma (Morocco)
11. HM The Queen of Spain
12. HRH The Prince Consort of Denmark
13. HSH The Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein
14. HH Sheikh Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah (Kuwait)
15. HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco
16. HM The King of Cambodia
17. HM Tuanku Syed Sirajuddin Ibni Al-Marhum Tuanku Syed Putra Jamalullail, The Yang di-Pertuan Agong XII and HM Tuanku Fauziah binti Al-Marhum Tengku Abdul Rashid, The Raja Permaisuri Agong (Malaysia)
18. HRH The Grand Duke of Luxembourg
19. HM The King of Jordan
20. HM The King and Queen of Lesotho
21. HH Sheikh Hamad Bin Khalifa Al-Thani and HH Sheikha Moza Bin Nasir Al-Musnad (Qatar)
22. HM The King of Swaziland
23. TIM The Emperor and Empress of Japan
24. TM The King and Queen of Sweden
25. HM Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah Muizzaddin Waddaulah and Her Majesty Raja Isteri Pengiran Anak Hajah Saleha (Brunei)
 
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