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  #561  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK
Olga7777, what I was saying was that the posters needed to think about twice if they decided to copy from the Cotilleando forum, if you didn't copy, then I didn't talk about you. I had never said the others copied from that forum in the China trip thread. I remember someone was only asking questions back then and they had never talked about it like a fact.
You are wrong, white color doesn't apply to clothes, just like the black color doesn't apply to clothes in the USA. I already showed you the events of daily life as well as the wedding celebration (very formal, much more high profile than the visit of Felipe and Letizia) of one of the most rich and powerful family recently. The mother wouldn't have wore an unlucky color (white, as you claimed ) to her own daughter's wedding. I had many business meetings in China before, white clothes were not uncommon at the meetings with Chinese officials.
I insist again in the several issues that have been raised.

First, I think at this stage it's already been proven the differences made in China, whether it refers to a specific adoption of a european tradition, in this case a white wedding in China with western clothes. On the other hand you have the ancient traditions that cover a significant part of life in there. You adopt a certain type of clothing depending of the event or circumstances. In the case of the western type wedding, white western style dress is adopted. In other events you will see the people adopting other types of styles when wearing that will be considered more appropriated. As stated before, everywhere in the world there are conventions about what to wear depending of the circumstances. I mentioned before how we have casual, formal, evening, and gala (or much more formal clothing) in everyday life. Also depending of the circumstances you will be expected to wear in a certain manner. Nobody will be shocked nowadays in western countries if you go to a funeral wearing clothing in other colour than black, but again that's considered not appropriated. Also it's considered to be a lack of knowledge of social traditions and a lack of respect, depending of course, of the circumstances that were involved in that scenario.

Regarding to the posters and them having to think twice when they post, labelling someone's opinion as "trash copied from Cotilleando" looks to me as the kind of thing that you should rethink before posting. We all have the right to express our opinions without them being per se and upfront, labelled as trash, or have questioned our sincerity or our intellectual honesty, just because you don't share them.

Regarding to the last point, may I obtain more information about that wedding, please?.
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  #562  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:08 PM
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Just to contribute to this whole matter about the color of her clothes:

She was wearing a white pantsuit with a red top on their arrival. So, it was not entirely white. In fact, her clothes on that day was of the same color combination as the white and red silk dress that had been made from the material that had been given to her by the wife of the Chinese premier.

If the Chinese are indeed tradition-bound, the mother or mother-in-law of the bride in the photos of the wedding posted by donnaK would never risk wearing such a color if it was indeed, still an 'unlucky' color during a wedding, one of the most important events in the life of their child. I was brought up in Asia and to me, the wearing of white by one of the family members in that photo is a sign that there is a shift in how people perceive that color in Chinese culture.
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  #563  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:16 PM
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Olga7777, I already said enough in this subject. I saw white clothes everywhere in China, in casual, formal, evening, or gala, any event you could think of.
I have my own opinion too on that forum, I'm pretty sure I was not the only one here calling that forum trash, others also called similar things to it.
The father of the groom was from China, was holding a high political position in Taiwan (Vice President) before, now he already retired and travelled between China and Taiwan a lot. I find the pictures quite intriguing since the height difference between the groom and bride is quite similar to the one of Felipe and Letizia . The groom is 194cm, the bride is 168cm.
  #564  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
In the issue of her committing some mistakes, she has made several protocol mistakes, as going first in acts she accompanies the Prince and wearing white in China (which might not have been what it would have been in the past, but nonetheless she should have reconsidered that suit)
Was she taking part in a traditional Chinese ceremony or was it a Western-style affair?

I imagine that if it were traditional Chinese type of affair, she would have been briefed on the correct protocol because its so different from Western protocol. If it were a Western-type of affair, then I don't think wearing white was so much a breach of protocol.

Its when you wear white in the traditional Chinese manner that it is a protocol faux-pas, I believe.
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  #565  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:26 PM
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May I understand for your words that the wedding was not between Chinese people but people from Taiwan? I ask that because Taiwan has had more relation with western countries and western culture than mainland China. So not sure whether it's correct to apply.

In anycase I refer to your previous posts and the way I have been answer to what it was a clearly specify opinion.

As LenaT says

Quote:
I was brought up in Asia and to me, the wearing of white by one of the family members in that photo is a sign that there is a shift in how people perceive that color in Chinese culture.
Saying that there is a shift means that there are a significant number of people that still follows some traditions.

Again I must insist in the last sentence of my first post, it was a clearly expressed opinion. I have the same rights as you in that issue, and I have in my believe deal with it. I have also try to deal with by PM. If you wished we can continue with that that manner. The offer is there if you wish to take it.
  #566  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Was she taking part in a traditional Chinese ceremony or was it a Western-style affair?

I imagine that if it were traditional Chinese type of affair, she would have been briefed on the correct protocol because its so different from Western protocol. If it were a Western-type of affair, then I don't think wearing white was so much a breach of protocol.

Its when you wear white in the traditional Chinese manner that it is a protocol faux-pas, I believe.
I have mentioned in general in my first post several protocol mistakes and I referred to the Chinese incident in particular as example. As I continued writing:

Quote:
In the issue of her committing some mistakes, she has made several protocol mistakes, as going first in acts she accompanies the Prince and wearing white in China (which might not have been what it would have been in the past, but nonetheless she should have reconsidered that suit) and she has make several remarks not appropriated in several occasions....Definitely it's not as if she has harmed the country, but I have to hope she will never do anything like that
As I said in my first post that started all this, please notice the text in bold, she should have reconsidered that suit and try to be on the safe side, just in case and added in my western opinion.

I made before reference to the Starbucks incident just to give more information about how important certain traditions are in China. I have seen images of the local in TV and I could not see anything offensive in the place and there is nothing illegal on it. But my perspective is a western one and not a Chinese one.
  #567  
Old 02-12-2007, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
May I understand for your words that the wedding was not between Chinese people but people from Taiwan? I ask that because Taiwan has had more relation with western countries and western culture than mainland China. So not sure whether it's correct to apply.
The communists abandoned lots of traditions, for many years China had been close to outside world, but neither kept the old traditions either, the communists like to have their own rules, own ways of doing things. On the other hand, Taiwan has kept many old Chinese traditions, has the most protocols, is the most traditional among China, HongKong and Taiwan. The past 20 years, Businessmen from Taiwan and Hongkong flooded to China, there is really not much difference in the outside appearance these days, but in terms of inner values, Taiwanese are still among the most traditional.
I also saw the pictures of weddings of other famous Chinese from China, looked quite similar to the ones I posted.

A beautiful white outfit by a Chinese woman.
http://image2.sina.com.cn/ent/v/p/20...0212120931.jpg
  #568  
Old 02-12-2007, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777

As LenaT says



Saying that there is a shift means that there are a significant number of people that still follows some traditions.
Just to clarify, I meant that there is a REAL shift, i.e. significant numbers of people NO longer consider white an 'unlucky' color. Call it a 'paradigm shift' in how people view colors, if you will.

Also, to reiterate, she was wearing a RED top with the white pantsuit on her arrival. So this whole discussion based on whether she breached protocal by wearing white is imo, moot.

As for Starbucks at the Forbidden City, it may not be an issue of tradition but rather, globalization and the fear of further homogenization.
  #569  
Old 02-12-2007, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
I have mentioned in general in my first post several protocol mistakes and I referred to the Chinese incident in particular as example. As I continued writing:



As I said in my first post that started all this, please notice the text in bold, she should have reconsidered that suit and try to be on the safe side, just in case and added in my western opinion.

I made before reference to the Starbucks incident just to give more information about how important certain traditions are in China. I have seen images of the local in TV and I could not see anything offensive in the place and there is nothing illegal on it. But my perspective is a western one and not a Chinese one.
Thanks for explaining. It was not clear from the word suit that it was a Western event. I think other countries' customs can be grossly misunderstood from the outside so as Westerners, we can be playing guessing games as to what is offensive to their culture and what is not.

What were the Chinese reactions to the white suit?
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  #570  
Old 02-12-2007, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel

What were the Chinese reactions to the white suit?
Nothing because she did not break protocol at all because there is no protocol of such at all. The Chinese children who welcomed them at the tarmac were also wearing white.
  #571  
Old 02-12-2007, 09:31 PM
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First in the issue of Starbucks for what I have seen in news in TV, they were making references to the cultural value of the Forbidden City, and one Chinese person that appeared in the news was talking about the cultural value for Chinese people of the place and the need to keep it free of things such Starbucks. The fear of globalization would refer to all Starbucks in China. As far as I know, the campaign is only against that specific outlet in the specific context of the Forbidden city. I assure you the images I have seen about the outlet are very respectful in my opinion with the place. But that's my western opinion.

Again the red top was barely visible, as I said before it's my opinion she should have played on the safe side and avoid the suit descending from the plane. She didn't wore the whole suit or anything in whole white after that. When I was talking about the shift, based in the comment made by Lena T, I mean that it was important before, and therefore the need to play in the safe side. If there is a shift is because it's still remember, and again I would like to point to my first message in that regard saying that "it might not be what it was before".

Regarding to the Chinese reactions, considering her status and the situation I'm sure they are aware of the cultural differences between the two countries and I'm completely sure they did not take it as an offence but it's a question of impressions made in other people. You can never depend in their understanding, you have to try to play in the safe side when you are in a situation as Letizia is. That's what is all about. Protocol, more specifically royal protocol is not only an issue of the rules but more like an art about how you can apply them, so to speak.

The Chinese children wore white shirts, red neckties and skirt and trousers in non-white colours. They were not wearing white in full.

I have repeatedly provided information about the context of the photos, on arrival descending of the plane, and provided links to those photos plus link to the thread in this forum that deals with the trip to China. I've tried very hard to be very specific in my messages and to provide sources and information about that specific event.
  #572  
Old 02-12-2007, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
First in the issue of Starbucks for what I have seen in news in TV, they were making references to the cultural value of the Forbidden City, and one Chinese person that appeared in the news was talking about the cultural value for Chinese people of the place and the need to keep it free of things such Starbucks. The fear of globalization would refer to all Starbucks in China. As far as I know, the campaign is only against that specific outlet in the specific context of the Forbidden city. I assure you the images I have seen about the outlet are very respectful in my opinion with the place. But that's my western opinion.

Again the red top was barely visible, as I said before it's my opinion she should have played on the safe side and avoid the suit descending from the plane. She didn't wore the whole suit or anything in whole white after that. When I was talking about the shift, based in the comment made by Lena T, I mean that it was important before, and therefore the need to play in the safe side. If there is a shift is because it's still remember, and again I would like to point to my first message in that regard saying that "it might not be what it was before".

Regarding to the Chinese reactions, considering her status and the situation I'm sure they are aware of the cultural differences between the two countries and I'm completely sure they did not take it as an offence but it's a question of impressions made in other people. You can never depend in their understanding, you have to try to play in the safe side when you are in a situation as Letizia is. That's what is all about. Protocol, more specifically royal protocol is not only an issue of the rules but more like an art about how you can apply them, so to speak.

The Chinese children wore white shirts, red neckties and skirt and trousers in non-white colours. They were not wearing white in full.

I have repeatedly provided information about the context of the photos, on arrival descending of the plane, and provided links to those photos plus link to the thread in this forum that deals with the trip to China. I've tried very hard to be very specific in my messages and to provide sources and information about that specific event.
To a certain point I agree with you olga, but if the Chinese children were partially clothed in white too, that really changes my perception of the event. Its too much of a coincidence that both the children and Letizia were all partially clothed in white. Do we absolutely know for sure that a color scheme wasn't agreed upon by the Chinese hosts and Spanish guests in advance? If white is so taboo in China, why were Chinese children wearing white when representing their country in front of the wife of a future foreign king? That seems a more unforgivable taboo for the Chinese children to wear partial white than Letizia wearing white. At least the adults dressing the children should have known better but Letizia as a foreigner not used to the culture could be forgiven.

Based on the last posts about the event, I think the Chinese hosts were very well aware of what they were expecting when they invited Letizia and that white in this circumstance was OK. As I said, it was too much of a coincidence that both the children and Letizia were clad in white.
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  #573  
Old 02-12-2007, 10:23 PM
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My opinion about the children in the photos is that they were wearing school uniforms in a western style plus a red necktie in a western manner. I assume that the western manner would be because it might be more normal that uniform in China nowadays and also because they will wanted to honour their guests and make them feel comfortable. That's my opinion, though

Regarding to the issue of colours I don't think the exchange of information in those events reach that point. I know of one story that involves Tony Blair, British Prime Minister, in America with George Bush and "some" informal gathering taken place, ending with Tony Blair rushing to change his clothes to be dressed properly for the event. So I don't think the exchange of information reaches that level. Also it points to the importance of being properly dressed for the events.

Letizia is not a normal foreigner, she is the consort of the heir to the throne in Spain, she is advised in questions of protocol and has to behave in a manner that represents the country and leaves the country in the best manner. The marriage to the Prince of Asturias brings that with it. I'm not saying she made a horrendous and unforgivable mistake, but she should know better by now.
  #574  
Old 02-12-2007, 10:47 PM
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Ok, I just called my cousin's Chinese husband and asked him about this. He told me that there is no such thing as you're not supposed to wear white because it's a taboo of some sort. He laughed and asked me where the hell I got it from.
  #575  
Old 02-12-2007, 11:27 PM
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This is going in circles and not being a very productive discussion and I have to sleep.

I have never said it was a tabu, I have never said it was forbidden, I have talk about the issue being a tradition, white being an unlucky colour because it was associated with mourning. Something about superstition. I have also added it's no longer what it was, and added about playing in the safe side. Please read my messages, I will not be quoting parts of them as it's very late for me. I remind everyone that I have always expressed it was my opinion and I have provided some sources so as to explain why this was my opinion.

Just one question, I'm Spanish living in Ireland. How many of the people in this conversation are Chinese living in mainland China?
  #576  
Old 02-12-2007, 11:39 PM
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My cousin-in-law (is there such thing?) Ang said that white is the color of mourning, but you can also wear it on any typical day. My cousin Dina wore a white dress on their wedding day in China he said. He said this is already 2007 and Chinese people have already been following Western practices. He said it's just like black, we wear it at funerals and we can also wear it on any occasions. I will ask my Chinese friend Mai when she gets back from HongKong.

Official Trip to China July 12-14 2006

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...6-a-10187.html
  #577  
Old 02-13-2007, 01:31 PM
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All possible opinions about Princess Letizia, wearing a white suit have been voiced and backed up with numerous sources.
I think we can now move on.
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  #578  
Old 02-17-2007, 05:36 AM
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Can somebody translate this article? I haven't a good translator. It is very interesting, I think so. It's a opinion abaut the princess of Asturias from a well known spanish's writer.

ABC.es: opinion - firmas - Una princesa
  #579  
Old 02-17-2007, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapian
Can somebody translate this article? It' s a opinion abaut the princces of Asturias from a well known spanish's writer.

ABC.es: opinion - firmas - Una princesa
The appearance of the Princess of Asturias, accompanying her husband to the headquarters of the Cervantes Institute has moved me profoundly. Her deep pain, her stoic attitude towards the tragedy has moved me. Nobody could have censured her, if she cancelled her official agenda during some time, to look for refuge in her privacy, until the external signs of her pain were mitigated. Not even her merciful detractors would have reproached it. But Doña Letizia has decided to reassume her activities, in a responsible gesture that only makes her more human to our eyes. On one hand, we have been able to see the damage that the pain has caused in her face (a pale reflection of what was caused in her spirit); at the same time, we have been able to verify her immediate will of sacrifice, her desire to put her high mission before the exhausted tears she was struggling not to show in her eyes. Never has Doña Letizia appeared so much as a princess like now.

Doña Letizia has had to face mistrusts and suspicions since her engagement to the Prince of Asturias was announced. About her all type of delirious rumours has circulated. I must confess that there was a time when I credulously listened to them; unfortunately, malicious stories usually have convincing attires. But that image, tributary to the calumny, started to be dissolved in a conversation I had with the archbishop Don Francisco Perez González; the picture he offered me of Doña Letizia exhaustively refuted it. Opposed to the frivolous, capricious and insufferable Letizia that the malicious chains have created, Don Francisco told me of a spiritual, discreet young woman, willing to self-sacrifice to the new dignity she has assumed and fully dedicated to the man she had decided to tie her destiny.

Soon, I had the opportunity to see her and greet her, when she went with her husband to the basilica of the Virgin of Atocha, to present her new born-daughter, Infanta Leonor. I specially recall the mixture of timidity and pride whereupon she welcomed the congratulations from the audience; there was no calculation in that attitude, only an effusive genuineness that completely defeated my initial reluctance. Shortly after, I had the opportunity to have a long talk with her, during the prize-giving ceremony of the Mariano de Cavia awards, when I had the honour of being placed in the same table. She exuded genuineness through all the pores of her skin; she was cautious without being shielded; she was likeable without any histrionic signs; very calmly amused, when the occasion deserved it, and also serenely conscious of her obligations and the vocation she had assumed. That night, I could verify by myself that the woman created by the gossip was exactly on the antipode of the woman I had at my side.

I have never been courtesan. I have not vocation, nor convictions to be such, but Doña Letizia, under her fragile appearance, seemed to me as a woman of a very special temper. I thought I would never pay her this tribute to her; that I would always keep those impressions in the most recondite corner of my memory. But, when I saw her bearing her pain with so much integrity, I was sincerely touched. I beg your pardon.
  #580  
Old 02-17-2007, 06:25 PM
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Juan Manuel de Prada (the author of the article) is a very famous Spanish writer. He won the Planet award in his 20s, also won other prestigeous literature awards.
My opinion, Letizia has always been the same Letizia. Nothing she did at the tragic death of her sister surprises me. But I'm glad that many people in Spain who haven't followed the Princes very closely saw the real Letizia this time, the malicious weekly attacks by the likes of Jaime Penafiel on her and her family can no longer blind people.
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