Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?

[branchg]

does anyone know the the estimated wealth of the romanov's before the revolution. also, I wondered, how exactly did the imperial family actually get money as well as the various members of the imperial family.

The imperial family owned virtually every major asset in Russia, including mines, forests, buildings, banks, factories, etc. The assets of the State were the assets of the family, with the nobility and merchant families allowed to share in the wealth as well. Their wealth was in the billions.

Generally, members of the imperial family were given huge allowances by the Tsar, who controlled most of the wealth, but not all. Grand Dukes also owned or controlled certain assets personally, from which they received their cash flow and shared with their families. Women generally owned nothing and were dependent on their fathers or husbands for money, except for their jewels.

 

[Russophile]

In this scenario, if the Yugoslav line fails succession would fall to the second daughter of Grand Duchess Helen, Princess Elisabeth of Greece, who married Carl Theodor, Count zu Toerring-Jettenbach, the Head of a mediatised House.

So Warren, where does Catherine Oxenberg fall in the scheme of things?

 

[Warren]

Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia's sister, Princess Elisabeth, is the mother of Catherine and Christina Oxenburg and of Nicholas Balfour.
Alexander and Elisabeth had an unmarried brother, Prince Nikola, who died at the age of 25 in a car accident near Windsor in 1954.

 

[Russophile]

Catherine Oxenberg

Warren, think she'd take a role if they made a Hallmark movie out of the Vlad's succession?
Seriously, since they are Yugo, wouldn't it go to Alexander's house first?

 

[branchg]

Prince Alexander would be first in-line as the eldest son of Princess Olga and Prince Paul and a devout Orthodox Christian. If his descendants are ruled to be ineligible, then it would pass as described by Warren to other branches.

 

[MAfan]

Is it true that Romanov Family Laws stated that Grand Dukes of Russia have to marry to women of equal birth, belonging to Royal Families, but these Laws state nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?

 

[Al_bina]

To the best of my knowledge, Tsarevich (i.e., Heir Apparent) and Grand Dukes (younger sons of any tsar) were expected to marry women of equal birth, who belonged to European Royal Houses. Russian Emperors and courtiers used to strictly follow this rule. What do you mean by Princes of Russia?

 

[MAfan]

Alexander III in 1886 stated that only the children and the paternal grandhildren of the Tsar can bear the title of Grand Duke; the other members of the Family are Princes of Russia; for example, the children of Grand Dukes Sandro and Xenia were Princes of Russia, not Grand Dukes.

 

[Al_bina]

I see ...Well, I was not aware of it. From what I read and heard, Russian royalty and nobility were very keen on maintaining pure bloodlines. Thus, Princes of Russia were expected to follow the aforementioned rule.

 

[Michael HR]

It was changed to the above rule, children and grand children, as the Tsar thought there would be to many Grand Dukes and the cost from the Tsar's funds would be to high hence the rule.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Alexander III in 1886 stated that only the children and the paternal grandhildren of the Tsar can bear the title of Grand Duke; the other members of the Family are Princes of Russia; for example, the children of Grand Dukes Sandro and Xenia were Princes of Russia, not Grand Dukes.

Ioann Konstantinovich was born a Grand Duke in 1886 but must have been stripped of it soon after. His brother Gavril born in 1887 and all subsequent brothers were princes.

How sad and tragically ironic that Alexander worried about there being so many Romanovs he had to reduce the titles and money of some, and so many ended up dead Grand Dukes were an endangered species. I still think Sandro's kids should be higher up, since their mother was the daughter of the Tsar.

 

[MAfan]

So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?

 

[DWC]

So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?

Here is an article by the author Pieter Broek which covers this question.

Article01

 

[branchg]

So my question is: it is true that Romanov Family Laws talk only about the marriages of the Grand Dukes of Russia, and say nothing about the marriages of the Princes of Russia?

The Pauline Law requires Grand Dukes and Princes of Russia to marry equally (to a woman of a royal house) in order for any children to be considered dynasts (within the line of succession).

With the Tsar's permission, a Prince of Russia could marry a woman of good standing who was not necessarily of a royal house (i.e. the Russian nobility). That didn't mean their children were dynasts. They were excluded from the throne and given a lesser title. Grand Dukes of Russia were not allowed to marry morganatically under any circumstances.

The idea behind this was Nicholas II was tired of fighting with his uncles and cousins over morganatic marriages. He made it clear that a Grand Duke should not even think of asking for permission to do so. For Princes of Russia, he was prepared to accept such a marriage for the sake of family harmony, but the wife and children were not members of the imperial family and granted a new style.

 

[Domhangairt]

Actually, the Pauline equality laws are farcical in the extreme, when you consider that firstly, Czar Pavel's own great grandmother (Ekaterina I) was born a Lithuanian peasant, and secondly, most of the early Czars, and earlier Grand Princes, married unequally, usually to daughters of boyars who were subjects. Pyotr 'the Great' himself, married firstly a Russian boyar's daughter, then a Lithuanian peasant.

As for the "purity of blood", this is laughable. The present Russian Imperial House is not even Russian, being a branch of the Danish Royal House of Oldenburg descended from a daughter of Pyotr the Great.

Furthermore, many contributors to this forum might be interested to know that many Russian monarchists in Russia don't think much of Maria Vladimirovna or her family, and would prefer to elect a home grown Czar, like they did back in 1613. the Pauline equality laws have resulted in an imperial family with practically no Russian blood at all. Maria's family is historically Danish, while her mother is Georgian, and her son's father a German prince- small wonder then that the Russian monarchist camp is struggling to broaden it's support base.

On the other hand, I have been studying the Rurikovichy Y-DNA programme being conducted by Prof Andrej Bajor. This programme has revealed that a significant number of people can claim biological descent from Russia's first Grand Prince, Rurik. The most prominant family whose Y-DNA signature closely matches the compiled DNA signature of Rurik, is the princely Gagarin family, descended from Grand Prince Vsevolod III via the Princes of Starodub. Another prominant Rurikovichy family is the Lobanov-Rostovsky family who claim descent from Grand Prince Konstantin via the Princes of Rostov (senior to Gagarin). These princes are all living agnates of Czar Ivan 'the terrible". Surely, in the unlikely event of an imperial restoration in Russia, one of these princes should be elected. They are at least truelly Russian?

 

[AGRBear]

Rurik wasn't Russsian. He was a Viking.

AGRBear

 

[branchg]

The Romanovs are mainly German, the same as many royal families in Europe. Maria's line is certainly not Danish. Her father was English-German and her mother was Georgian. Her paternal grandparents were primarily German in blood.

 

[Domhangairt]

AGRBear & branchg:

You are both right. Rurik was not ethnically Russian, his origins have been identified by DNA analysis as Finnish-Ugrian. He descended from Finnish ancestors who settled in the Swedish province of Uppland. Nevertheless, his family has enough Russian blood in the female line through many Russian marriages to make them sufficiently Russian.

This is not the case with Maria Vladimirovna, who has no recent Russian blood at all going back about 10 generations. Her family is a branch of the Danish royal family which as you rightly point out is German, since Count Christian of Oldenburg & Delmenhorst inherited the Danish crown in 1448?

The point is, back in Russia proper, Maria commands very little support even among Russian monarchists (you are welcome to check the facts out for yourselves). Furthermore in the male dominated world of Russian politics, she has no chance of being accepted even as a republican president. Her main support lies with the exiled Russian nobility, and some more romantic Russian expatriots and diasporan Russians.

In the unlikely, but possible restoration of the Imperial Throne, Russians will not care two hoots about equality laws, they will choose someone who they can firstly identify as Russian, and secondly, someone who can more directly claim descent from Russia's original hereditary rulers. This person would have very limited powers, and will almost certainly be a man.

My personal choice (for what it's worth) would be HH Prince Nicholas Nikolaievitch Gagarin , Ph.D. He has three sons. You can find his photograph and family tree on the Gagarin website www.gagarin.com. He is a direct descendant in the male line of Grand Prince Vsevolod III, ancestor of Ivan "the Terrible", the first of the Grand Princes to call himself "Czar". The Gagarin Y-DNA is also the closest to the compiled Y-DNA signature of Rurik.

I personally have no issue with a Czarina, Catherine "the Great" was a great leader of Russia, but Russia's political class is unlikely to accept a female head of state. Besides, I think a certain element of ruthlessness is required to fill that post, even with limited powers.

 

[COUNTESS]

Catherine the great was, also, not Russian.

 

[Russophile]

Catherine the great was, also, not Russian.

And she was brilliant.
Are the Gagrin's brilliant, by chance? One needs brilliance to be accepted by the Russians. Brilliance of character, of charisma, of intellect, wit. Though were it me, I'd pass the throne by the populance is too fond of assassination. . .

 

[Domhangairt]

Russophile

The present Head of the Gagarin princely family has a PhD and another degree- I don't know if that makes him brilliant. His late father, Prince Nikolai Nicolaievitch spoke ten languages, was a good baseball player, and intellectual. Both his parents were Russian, which sets him appart from Maria Vladimirovna- though she is a great lady with great potential ( I don't know about tact). When the Albanians voted against monarchy restoration in 1997, one of the reasons given was that the King, Leka, is half Hungarian, while his son, Leka, is half Australian. If feel this would also be an issue in Russia. Of course you don't have to go with Gagarin. There are other Russian princely families of Rurikovichy ancestry, such as Dolgorukov, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Galitzine, and others. However, since the Revolution, may of these famillies ended up fairly poor, since the Soviets confiscated their assets which were mostly tied up in property. Quite a few of these families are either now extinct, or facing extinction, which often hapens when a family's finances collapse. I have read that post revolution, some of the Romanoff-Oldenburgs were driving taxis and digging roads to survive in exile! Try to obain a copy of the book Once a Grand Duke, by one of the late Czar's cousins.

 

[Domhangairt]

Countess

Catherine the Great was a minor German princess, the daughter of the Duke of Anhalt-Zerbst. However, I have read that she descends in the remote female line from one of the Russian Grand Princes (I think Mikhail Grand Prince of Tver). So her son, Pavel, could genuinely claim descent, after all, from the original Rurikovichy Grand Princes, despite his German origins. Of course the original Romanoffs were true Russians, more so even than the Rurikovichy. However, the true Romanoff dynasty died out in the male line with Czar Pyotr II in 1730, and in the female line with Czarina Elisaveta Petrovna in 1761. Maria Vladimirovna has no more right, really, to call herself a Romanoff, than her cousin, the Prince of Montenegro, who is also a cognate of the dynasty.

 

[Princess Margaret]

The most intelligent member of the Russian royal family - Nikolay Romanov, who is a historian - doesn't want to be a tzar. Others are less intelligent and want to be. But anyway it is hard to imagine a restoration of a monarchy in the modern Russia.

 

[Domhangairt]

Odly enough, opinion polls have indicated that as much as one third of Russians are partial to the idea of a constitutional monarchy- Russia is currently going through a nationalist phase, mainly due to the loss of large parts of it's former Empire, including Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and the Baltic states. However, few people, including the monarchist camp, take Maria Vladimirovna seriously, and I have read that she has put more than a couple of noses out of joint in Moscow- something you don't want to do if you are campaigning for a restoration- which she believes is possible! I read that Boris Yeltsin was rumoured to be secretly grooming Maria's son, George (Yuri) to be a constitutional monarch, but since Yeltsin's departure from Russian politics, no more has been said or heard of this idea. Vladimir Putin was said to be partial to the idea of an appointed Head of State, because of the logistical nightmare of electing a President in a country as vast and diverse and complex as the Russian federation.

 

[branchg]

Russia is still controlled by the former KGB and Putin is a symbol of that control. Restoring the Romanovs would simply give the current powerholders another tool to use in manipulating the people to meet their own ends.

Maria has not taken a strong stance towards speaking of democracy or freedom of the press in Russia. She is only concerned with pursuing a throne, which has not gone over well with liberals. There is only a very small segment of society that even cares about the Romanovs or the monarchy.

It's not going to happen.

 

[Domhangairt]

I tend to agree with you, however miracles do happen, like the recent campaign for a constitutional monarchy in Georgia- who would have thought that an obscure Caucasian dynasty, out of power for more than 200 years would suddenly attract so much attention again.

But you are right. Unless the Russian royals get in with the former KGB heavies, there would be little hope of a restoration in Russia. I actually don't think that real democracy is possible in Russia- democracy has never been part of it's culture, and there is just too much at stake for the players to act with integrity. A certain amount of corruption and intrigue will always plague Russian politics- as it did under the Czarist regime, and the Soviet regime. What's new, really?

 

[Al_bina]

I think it is inaccurate to project the Georgian scenario of restoration onto Russia. From the geo-political standpoint, the above countries are absolutely different. Monarchists had a good chance for restorations during the Yeltsin's second term, when educated Russians were taken aback by his inability to govern the country. Putin's emergence as a new leader, who was determined to improve lives of ususal Russian as well as create political/economical stability and reduce lawlessness within the country, severely reduced these chances.

 

[Domhangairt]

Very interesting. Yes Georgia and Russia are two very different societies. I think recent Georgian dynastic marriage might just put Bagrationis back on the Throne. Problem with Eatern Europeans, they don't really understand the concept of constitutional monarchy. This is a very diificult concept to sell when they have been used to strong presidencies and dictatorship, for so long.

 

[Princess Margaret]

Do not forget, that Putin was very close to former Mair of St. Petersbourg, Anatolyi Sobchak, and greeted Maria and Georgiy in Russia several times at the times of Eltzine. And of course Romanov's burial was a part of Kremlin image campaign at that time. But you are right, Putin allways wanted to be a tzar himself.

 

[COUNTESS]

It's not going to happen.

You are quite correct. Romanov's shouldn't quit their day jobs. And a Romanovs speaking of democracy or freedom of the press, only if it suited them...a poor joke at best.