Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?

[XeniaCasaraghi]

"Bad enough"? At least some of them still exist and are still worn. The BRF has but a fraction of "the Romanov jewels"; if Queen Mary hadn't bought what she did, most of those would have been broken up into engagement rings and other trinkets long ago.

If its a question of whether the jewels be destroyed or be owned to the family which denied the Romanov's a safe haven, I say break them up. Plus other RFs own some of their jewels so Id just give them to the other RFs for free rather than sell them to the BRF.

I jsut wonder, why would they (the Romanovs) want to bother with the whole country. Many disputed heads might have made 'unequal' marriages, but it was mainly because they didn't presume that they would go back to Russia or that anything that has happened, would.

In the 21st century, should that whole "unequal marriage" rule go out the window; just like that no woman rulers rule.

 

[COUNTESS]

They can all support each other, because retoration is a myth. Few want to take back the Romanov self-centered reign. Artiso-Cat, some of them think of the glory, power and maybe there are a few bucks there for them. They, really, don't give a hoot about the people. Never did.

 

[AristoCat]

If its a question of whether the jewels be destroyed or be owned to the family which denied the Romanov's a safe haven, I say break them up. Plus other RFs own some of their jewels so Id just give them to the other RFs for free rather than sell them to the BRF.

Oh, if you really want to get upset, read about how even when the Dowager Empress Marie was alive, how Queen Alexandra even pestered Marie for the gems. It would make you sick to your stomach. The BRF also has other gems from monarchies as well as the Russian one.

 

[NotHRH]

They can all support each other, because retoration is a myth. Few want to take back the Romanov self-centered reign. Artiso-Cat, some of them think of the glory, power and maybe there are a few bucks there for them. They, really, don't give a hoot about
the people. Never did.

I actually believe, for the most part, most RF's do not give a hoot about their subjects.It is hard to believe there are poor royal families. I would enjoy living on only 10 million USD's/year. So flippin' poor! Right!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Oh, if you really want to get upset, read about how even when the Dowager Empress Marie was alive, how Queen Alexandra even pestered Marie for the gems. It would make you sick to your stomach. The BRF also has other gems from monarchies as well as the Russian one.

My dear AristoCat,

I find this very hard to believe, because I have always read that Alexandra was so very gracious and she loved her sister and in light of the Russian tragedy, I would be very surprised that Queen Alexandra would hound Marie for the jewels. Can you direct me to where you read this?

I do know that money became a problem for Marie but I never heard that the two sisters squabbled over the Romanov jewels.

 

[AristoCat]

They can all support each other, because retoration is a myth. Few want to take back the Romanov self-centered reign. Artiso-Cat, some of them think of the glory, power and maybe there are a few bucks there for them. They, really, don't give a hoot about the people. Never did.

You'd be surprised. My contact within the RNA and I agree that if in the event of such a restoration, that in fact, it should be up to the Russian people over who it should be. Not about from which Romanov. It's mainly Maria who wants the glory for her son and herself and Cyril was quick enough to form a Court in exile and start swinging the hammer over the heads of the Romanovs. It's telling, the very organization he created (The Russian Nobility Association) to use as a Court, go figure, turned away from his son Vladimir and is at loggerheads with Maria Vladimirovna over the succession. They support the descendant of Grand Duchess Xenia and likely would have supported the branch that is descended from Olga and neither are interested in campaigning for a restoration.

 

[Cory]

After Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke George if they do not have descendats the succession could pass to the descendants of Grand Duchess Maria (Princes of Leiningen) and Grand Duchess Kira (Princes of Prussia) , the two daughters of Grand Duke Kirill.

 

[branchg]

In terms of equal marriages, that would be the case. But since the Pauline Law requires the heir to be Orthodox, the German marriages of Kira and Marie would likely be excluded, requiring the succession to flow through Grand Duchess Helen Vladimirovna, Cyril's sister.

Her eldest daughter, Princess Olga of Greece & Denmark, married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, an Orthodox union, and their eldest son, Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, also married equally. So, it's very possible the throne would have passed to the Serbian Royal House.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Branchg,

I like this scenario. Couldn't an argument be made that it is undoubted that Grand Duchess Elena made proper marriages, as did her children; if so, and because there is an argument about whether Maria's parents made a valid marriage for succession purposes, the claim to the throne should go through her line and not through Maria?

 

[NotAPretender]

I think this is the most reasonable approach I've heard on this issue in a very long time.

 

[AristoCat]

What about the other Romanovs? There are Romanovs who have the line and can lay claim to the right, it doesn't have to go to just the German/Greek branches. Marie might not view them as dynasts, but they ARE more closely related to Nicholas II than even she is.

 

[Cory]

We do not speak about who is more related to Nicholas II but about he is eligible because of equal marriage and respecting the Laws.The Princes of Leningen can become Orthodox and inherit the throne if Grand Duke George does not have descendants.

 

[branchg]

My dear Branchg,

I like this scenario. Couldn't an argument be made that it is undoubted that Grand Duchess Elena made proper marriages, as did her children; if so, and because there is an argument about whether Maria's parents made a valid marriage for succession purposes, the claim to the throne should go through her line and not through Maria?

Yes. In terms of the strictest interpretation of the Pauline Laws, the rights would indeed have passed from the Romanovs to the line of Princess Olga's marriage to Prince Paul after Vladimir's death in 1992.

 

[Cory]

In terms of the strict interpretation of the Pauline Laws?Which articles of the Law?

 

[branchg]

The part that states a child of a marriage between a dynast and a person who does not possess corresponding rank shall have no right to the throne whatsoever. This morganatic clause disqualifies all the current descendants of dynasts, including Maria Vladimirovna, because their mothers were not of royal rank.

As such, the male line of the Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp line became defunct in 1992 with Vladimir's death. The closest female and Orthodox line (assuming Kira and Marie's marriage are deemed non-compliant for religious and political reasons) would be through Helen Vladimirovna to her female descendants, the eldest of which is Princess Olga.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Yay! I belong to the monarchist group "Anyone but Maria"

 

[Cory]

Grand Duchess Maria's mother belonged to a Royal Family much more ancient than the Romanovs.The marriage was equal and so Grand Duchess Maria is the Head of The Imperial Family.

There are persons who do not like Grand Duchess Maria and try to find pretexts not to recognize her.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

If you are referring to me, I will go on the record to state that I am not a fan of Maria. But her claim to a non-existent throne is disputed, like it or not, and I like this discussion about who should be the pretender to the throne (actually, I don't even know if this is correct since there is no throne; this is different situation and unlike Bonnie Prince Charlie being the pretender to the British throne because that throne is still very much in existence). I hope you are not offended by my comments. Even if I hated (and I do not really hate anyone) Maria, but believed her claim was the strongest, I would support her. But I don't support her claim.

 

[Cory]

I am not a fan of Grand Duchess Maria at all but I am sure she is the head of The Imperial Family and I have no doubt about it.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Cory refuses to acknowledge that Maria is disqualified by the old laws just as much as her family whom she insists are disqualified.
The Romanovs themselves prefer Nicholas, but if the monarchy were ever restored it would be up to the Russian people to decide. Until then the Romanovs are just like the claimants of France; fighting over a nonexistent throne all their lives.

 

[NotAPretender]

Grand Duchess Maria's mother belonged to a Royal Family much more ancient than the Romanovs.The marriage was equal and so Grand Duchess Maria is the Head of The Imperial Family.

There are persons who do not like Grand Duchess Maria and try to find pretexts not to recognize her.

A Bagration/Romanov marriage during Imperialist times was not recognized as equal and Royal. End of that discussion.

These are not "pretexts" - these are valid factually based positions.

You merely continue to restate and restate and restate her position without citing specific laws, examples, or facts. I think you are well spoken and well educated, but I am forced to conclude that you are not a credible contributor on this issue. Indeed, you have in the recent past been insulting and abusive to those holding opposite views from yours.

Provide some genuine, documented, truthful, well-sourced and independently verified data and there may be a difference in the debate.

 

[AristoCat]

The Romanovs themselves prefer Nicholas, but if the monarchy were ever restored it would be up to the Russian people to decide.

Exactly; Maria keeps putting on airs as if she is the only one who has any legitimate right to have the throne, the actual Russian CITIZENRY (not subjects) be damned. The other Romanovs actually take that stance and understand they have much to prove, but Maria already advertises her son as Tsarevich and herself as de jure Empress, as if the matter is already settled.

It has been over a hundred years when the Duma was formed (in 1905) and the autocracy ended and it is quickly approaching the one hundred year mark of the murder of the Imperial Family and the beginning of the dark decades of Communism. Since then the Germans have invaded and wrecked Russia and there has been almost a hundred million dead. For Maria to think she can just step in, get a couple of palaces, get a huge pension, is just plain insane. Where has she been for the past so many years while Russia was under the jackboot of Communism?

Russia is as fragile right now as a Faberge egg and can't handle the burden of supporting a pretentious woman and her son. Russia needs rest and support, not a burden of supporting Maria with what little money they have. Russia doesn't have much by way of excess cash and is now only just getting on it's feet. Maria is not entitled to the status or money or any palaces. Russia owes her nothing and I think that fundamentally Prince Nicholas has the right idea of it: "My dear fellow, don't you know, I'm a Republican!" He states that Russia is TIRED and he's right. A restoration in the old form is impractical and impossible and the Russians owe Maria (or any other Romanov) nothing at all.

 

[branchg]

Maria does have recognition from the Church and the Government as the Head of the Imperial House, more as a courtesy than anything else, while the other Romanovs also enjoy good relations with the Kremlin. Life goes on.

The throne is never coming back unless it suits the powers-that-be as something that can be manipulated for their benefit. Maria seems willing to be a puppet of Putin and his sinister nationalistic games, while the other Romanovs keep their distance.

Hopefully, George can someday move on with his life without his mother's constant obsession over a non-existent throne that no one cares about anymore.

 

[Next Star]

I don't see Russia becoming a monarchy again anytime soon nor do I accept Maria Vladimorovna as head of the Russian imperial house and her son George has the heir to this house.This woman needs to wake up and see that no one is interseted in restoring the empire atleast not now.

 

[AristoCat]

I think that good relations iwth the Kremlin is the best the Romanovs could expect and Maria is the only on interested in an official restoration. I don't see the point of an official, taxpayer supported restoration and frankly Maria seems more interested in power than she is over what is in the best interest for the Romanovs as a whole.

 

[Nice Nofret]

.. well, she is living in a dream-world of her own; Anyone could claim anything in a dream - it doesn't make it real.

In my dreams, I'm young and healthy again .... so what? It doesn't change reality .

She should move on - her time will never come. If there will be a day for a new monarchy in russia - it will most probably be a new dynastie .. maybe with marrying a woman of an old one - to connect to the former ones.

 

[Benjamin]

For Maria to think she can just step in, get a couple of palaces, get a huge pension, is just plain insane. Where has she been for the past so many years while Russia was under the jackboot of Communism?

Insane it may well be, but have you heard of the recent developments in Montenegro with regard to the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty?

 

[lucien]

Russia isn't Montenegro,that is a totally different history.

As for the initial question:It certainly isn't Maria,even tho she tries to pull any trick in and out of the book ,and has many way too blind followers from lalaland...History is not their best point to say the very least and very polite....

She's nothing else but a close thing to a princess,not a Grand Duchessthing at all,nor ever will be,she's the phantom no-one really wants around....

 

[Al_bina]

Maria does have recognition from the Church and the Government as the Head of the Imperial House, more as a courtesy than anything else, while the other Romanovs also enjoy good relations with the Kremlin. Life goes on. ...[snipped]

My personal observation is that the Russian government treats every Romanov politely indifferent. They neither show favouritism towards nor ostracise any of the pretenders.

 

[Cory]

There are two different issues here:the restoration of Monarchy in Russia (object of another thread) and the rightful Head of the Imperial Family.