Royal Courtiers, Ladies in Waiting, Staff, etc

[MasquedCount]

I would like some clarification on positions in current & past Imperial & Royal Households. I understand many are based on Germany or Byzantine Empire or early France.

I feel like something is being lost in translations or are they accurate? I know it differs from household to household but could someone clarify perhaps the normal standard differences between the Chamberlain (or chamberlains), the Master of the Court or Household, and the Court Marshal/Grand Marshal?

I undertand the Grand Chamberlains are usually ceremonial, are there other chamberlains?

It becomes more murky for me in the differences in most courts between the Grand Master/Master of the Household/Court and the Grand Marshal or Court Marshal.
Also some use Chancellor, perhaps some clarification on that too.

Can this be moved to Royal Ceremony and Protocol? May get more of answer there hopefully.

 

[LadyFinn]

According to the countess Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister, the Mistress of the Robes of the Swedish Royal Court, queen Silvia has at the moment two ladies-in-waiting.
1. Baroness Christina von Schwerin, 70 years, since 1990
2. Eva Hafström, 52 years, she started at 1st September.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

During the reign of King Edward IV of England, The Black Book of the Household was drawn up. It enshrined the rights and duties of all the members of the royal household.
The Black Book of the Household also included the ceremonial details to be observed at court. It was compulsory for every male member of King Edward IV of England's household above the rank of gentleman to wear a gold collar of suns and white roses in honor of the House of York.

Empress Marie Louise of the French's principal lady-in-waiting was the Duchesse de Montebello.
​

 

[USCtrojan]

Does anyone know if any of the ladies of the non-reigning houses have ladies-waiting? Queen Anna-Maria, Queen Anne, former King Simeon's wife, or even Crown Princess Katherine of Serbia?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The Empress Elisabeth of Austria's aunt, who was also her mother-in-law, the Archduchess Sophie, chose the Countess Esterhazy to be the Mistress of the Household.
​

 

[Mbruno]

This is interesting, But I have a question. What's the difference between the aristocratic, noble and patrician?

"Patricians" are members of old and well-known Dutch families who are listed in the so-called "Blue Book" (officially Nederland's Patriciaat). Patrician familes are those that have held prominent public offices for several generations in the Netherlands throughout the centuries and belong to the country's upper class, but were never formally admitted into the nobility (de Nederlandse Adel).

The nobility on the other hand is a class of individuals who, by inheritance, birth right or royal decree are legally entitled to use a title (e.g. count, viscount, baron, etc.) or an honorific predicate. The list of families who belong to the nobility is maintained by an official state body known as de Hoge Raad van Adel (the High Council of Nobility), which reports to the Dutch council of ministers.

In the Kingdom of the Netherlands, one could be admitted into the nobility by 3 different methods:

1. The person's family could be recognized by the monarch as part of the indigenous nobility of the Netherlands from the days of the old Dutch republic (1572-1795).
2. The person could be elevated to the nobility by royal decree.
3. If the person's family held nobility status in a foreign country, he/she could be incorporated into the nobility of the Netherlands when he/she or his/her father became a naturalized Dutch citizen.

I believe #1 is theoretically still possible, albeit very unlikely, since most eligible families were already recognized a long time ago. New elevations to the nobility on the other hand, although common in 19th century, are now legally possible only for members or former members of the Dutch Royal House. Likewise, incorporation of foreign nobility is no longer allowed by law.



When a person was admitted into the Dutch nobility (by one of the 3 aforementioned methods), he could be also granted a title, or have a pre-existent family title recognized/confirmed by the monarch. Otherwise, if no title was granted or recognized, the admitted person became part of what is called the untitled nobility. Sometimes a family was admitted as untitled nobility and, many generations later, they could be raised by the monarch to titled status, either by granting of a new title or recognition of a pre-1795 title.



The general rule in the case of recognized pre-existent titles is that the title is transmitted from birth to all male and female descendants, but in male line only. New titles on the other hand were generally inherited by the first-born son only, but, in some cases, they could also be transmitted to all male-line descendants. In the northern Netherlands (i.e the current Kingdom of the Netherlands), the usual titles of nobility were/are count and baron, whereas in the southern Netherlands (modern-day Belgium), the title of viscount also existed in addition to the former. Members of the untitled nobility on the other hand are entitled to use the honorific predicate of jonkheer, which is also hereditary in male line.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

What are a gentleman's background requirements to be hired as a Royal Valet?

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[Duc_et_Pair]

In the Netherlands the Hofdames (litterally: Ladies of the Court) and the Dames du Palais (more senior Hofdames) as well the Kamerheren (Chamberlains) are appointed and dismissed at the King's pleasure. These ladies and gentlemen are not paid for their services but are reimbursed for all costs they make for their duties. The Hofdames, Dames du Palais and the Kamerheren form part of the so called Civil House.

Beside the Civil House, there is also the Military House. This is responsible for all the ceremonial and protocol for which the military is responsible. The Aide-de-Camps accompanying members of the royal family are appointed and dismissed at the King's pleasure as well, after a nomination by the Minister of Defence. These remain in service of the armed forces but are "detached into the service of His Majesty The King".

Queen Beatrix had far more Hofdames than Queen Máxima. That is logical: a reigning Queen has a total different schedule and agenda than a consort. At the moment Queen Máxima has four Hofdames, led by the Grand Mistress:

Martine Louise Amelie van Loon-Labouchère (Grand Mistress)
Ottoline Antoinette ("Lieke") Gaarlandt-van Voorst van Beesd
Maria Louisa Alexandra ("Bibi") Baroness van Zuylen van Nijevelt-den Beer Poortugael
Josephine Maria ("Pien") van Karnebeek-Thijssen
Anna Magdalena ("Annemijn") Crince le Roy-van Munster van Heuven

 

[carlota]

At the moment Queen Máxima has four Hofdames, led by the Grand Mistress:

Martine Louise Amelie van Loon-Labouchère (Grand Mistress)
Ottoline Antoinette ("Lieke") Gaarlandt-van Voorst van Beesd
Maria Louisa Alexandra ("Bibi") Baroness van Zuylen van Nijevelt-den Beer Poortugael
Josephine Maria ("Pien") van Karnebeek-Thijssen
Anna Magdalena ("Annemijn") Crince le Roy-van Munster van Heuven

gosh, that's a good troop of aides for Maxima ! looks like Pien and Bibi are Maxima's age which must be nice for her... do each of them help Maxima in a different way?

here are some pics of them:

Annemijn
Pien
Bibi
Lieke
Martine


to my knowledge, letizia only has a male secretary. kate seems to have 3 or 4 different helpers who travel with her. mary has caroline, her secretary and her LIW, tanya.

 

[rchainho]

thanks for the images and info. that was great.

 

[ashelen]

wow can't believe this people work with no pay!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

wow can't believe this people work with no pay!

It is not really work, a Hofdame is more or less "approved company of Her Majesty". Traditionally these were ladies of good descent whom were financially independent. They are not paid in the meaning of having an employer-employee relationship, however all costs they make are met by the King.

The Grand Mistress, Martine van Loon-Labouchere, is a widower from Jonkheer Maurits van Loon, who owned a stunning 17th C Amsterdam canal mansion, now a museum: Museum Van Loon Mrs Van Loon lives in the equally stunning mansion next door and uses the venue for grand receptions, also in her function as Grand Mistress. She was earlier married (and widowed) from the Amsterdam shipping magnate Daniël Delprat. From birth she comes from the Labouchère family, which owned a chique bank (Bank Labouchère), which was sold to a financial conglomerate (Dexia) somewhere in the 2000's. The family Van Loon is noble, the family Labouchère is Patriciate.

"Lieke" Gaarlandt-van Voorst van Beesd is the daughter of a CEO in Billiton, one of the world's largest producers of aluminium, copper, iron, silver, mangane, uranium, etc. She is widowed to a publisher of books. The family Van Voorst van Beesd belongs to the Patriciate.

"Bibi" Baroness van Zuylen van Nijevelt-den Beer Poortugael is married to a nobleman whose family owns a large estate which is partly used as a popular holiday- and water-attractions park. Her spouse is the CEO of the family estate. Both the family Den Beer Poortugael as well the family Van Zuylen van Nijevelt belong to the nobility. The last family owns one of the most stunning castles in the Netherlands (now placed into a family foundation): http://defotograaf.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JVH_7555.jpg

"Pien" van Karnebeek-Thijssen is married to a nobleman who is the Chief Sales Manager of Heineken, one of the world's largest beverage companies.

"Annemijn" Crince le Roy-van Munster van Heuven is the daughter of a CEO of a large metal company in Rotterdam. Her own family (Van Munster van Heuven) as well her husband's (Crince le Roy) belong to the Patriciate and have a record of service to the Crown going generations back.

 

[ashelen]

Thank you so much for your explanation Duc et Pair , still its like a job where you have and schedule to follow like any other job!!!! If I am in any of this positions I really would love to work for myself, but of course that's it is me! I admire them that they are doing this job! when they could enjoy a life of luxuries!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Thank you so much for your explanation Duc et Pair , still its like a job where you have and schedule to follow like any other job!!!! If I am in any of this positions I really would love to work for myself, but of course that's it is me! I admire them that they are doing this job! when they could enjoy a life of luxuries!

The Hofdames do arrange together with the Queen who and where will be "on duty". They belong to the highest ranking staff at the palace. A Hofdame has her own salon inside the palace and is -on her turn- served by the palace staff. Until Queen Beatrix, the Grootmeesteres (Grand Mistress) was the highest functionary at the Court... she even held her own New Year's Reception where the who-is-who of the kingdom would attend. It is not really work, it is a honorary function which gives the lady a great prestige. And of course the chance to meet the high- and mighty, to attend State Banquets, to be on the first row at all royal events. For an example being part of the royal cortège in their own carriage: http://www.ppe-agency.com/500px/Sep2012/PPE12091876.jpg

 

[ashelen]

Duc et Pair:
I get your point! Thank you! it is the closest that anyone can get to be a royal! Certenly a presitige as you said! and if on top of that you have your own aids to help, that make it even easier! thank you for all your explanation! I would love to have my own ladys in waiting! haha! would be really fan!

 

[TheWriter]

Who makes up a royal court and what are their jobs?

In old times before monarchies were abolished/throne out or what ever Kings and Queens had a royal court I'm curious what titles made up the hierarchy and what was the function of each title?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In short: in modern times a Royal Court is just the organization which keeps the monarchy running. In essence it is very the same as any ministerial department serving a minister (read: the King) which is lead by the Secretary-General (read: the Lord Chamberlain, the Court Marshall, the Grandmaster), which has a Secretary, often divided into a private and an official one, which has a financial controller (read: the Treasurer), etc.

In the novel A Dark Wood Wandering by Hella S. Haasse, the story focuses on Charles de Valois, Duc d'Orléans (1394-1465) the shy nephew of the mad king Charles VI of France. Here the situation is told in the 15th C. The Duke would marry three times, with Isabella de Valois, daughter of his nephew the King. Then with Bonne d'Armagnac and finally with Marie de Cleves. In the novel the a so-called Hofstaat (Dutch/German) which maybe is best translated as Court Estate, is often mentioned and described. It was very important and was even part of a dowry. The prestige of a lord or lady became visible in his or her Court Estate. A person like the Duchess d'Orléans had younger Duchesses, Marchionesses, Countesses etc. in her Court Estate, completed with a governor, a treasurer, a surgeon, a confessor, a comedian, artists, etc. In those times they were not part of a castle or palace (as the Court was always and ever on the move) but formed a part of the personal entourage. Not only the money, the jewels, the artworks, but also the exact Court Estate which was given to a lady was an important part of the negotations about a dowry.

This is still visible in the Swedish court organization. Where most monarchies have one court organization working for the whole Royal House, in Sweden some functionaries still belong to a Hofstaat, the Court Estate of a specific person. In Sweden there is the Konungens Hovstat med Kansli (the King's Court Estate with Chancellery), the Dronningens Hovstat (the Queen's Court Estate) and the Kronprinsessans Hovstat (the Crown Princess' Court Estate). In the Queen's Hovstat there are (female) advisers (Statsfru), secretaries, Hovdams (ladies-in-waiting). led by the Överhovmästarinna (Mastress of the Court). This organization model still shows how today's court organizations, much more efficient, leaner and meaner than ever before, were once the products of personal Court Estates which formed part of a person's entourage.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

A 21st Century Royal Court is pretty different from a 18th, 19th and Early 20th Century Royal Court Obviously I know that for sure


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

A 21st Century Royal Court is pretty different from a 18th, 19th and Early 20th Century Royal Court Obviously I know that for sure


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

Of course it is, like I also stated in my post (very similar to ministerial departments). I only wanted to make clear how today's Courts are the product personal entourages which were assigned to royals.

In the Netherlands around 450 people are indirectly, and around 350 people directly, working for the Royal House it is divided in the Military Household and the Civil Household. There are also around 100 persons working in the Honorary Household, mostly functionaries whom have left the Court organization but are "stand by" when their services are needed.

The total Court organization is lead by the Grandmaster. Under him there are several bureaus:
- the Bureau of the Grandmaster
- the King's Treasury
- the Bureau of the Master of the Ceremonies
- the Department of the Court Marshall
- the Intendance of the Royal Palaces
- the Royal Mews
- the Royal Forestry
- the Bureau of the Grandmastress and the Hofdames
- etc.
- etc.

Every monarchy does it differently

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Margaret of Anjou, Queen Consort of Henry VI of England, had five female attendants.
One was Dame Elizabeth Grey, daughter of Sir Richard Wydville.
Another attendant was Elizabeth, wife of James Butler, Earl of Wiltshire.
​

The Countess de Altamira was Queen Consort Elizabeth Farnese of Spain's chief lady-in-waiting.
The Countess managed Queen Elizabeth's ladies-in-waiting very strictly.
​

 

[Marengo]

"Bibi" Baroness van Zuylen van Nijevelt-den Beer Poortugael is married to a nobleman whose family owns a large estate which is partly used as a popular holiday- and water-attractions park. Her spouse is the CEO of the family estate. Both the family Den Beer Poortugael as well the family Van Zuylen van Nijevelt belong to the nobility. The last family owns one of the most stunning castles in the Netherlands (now placed into a family foundation): http://defotograaf.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JVH_7555.jpg

Castle De Haer belonged to a junior, catholic branch of the family. It was indeed inherited by the 4 daughters of baron Thierry van Zuylen van Nijevelt de Haar.

BTW his sister was the socialite Marie-Hélène van Zuylen, who 2ndly married Baron Guy the Rotschild. Her son from her first marriage is Count Philippe de Nicolay, who married (and divorced) Pss Sophie de Ligne, daughter of Pss Alix of Luxembourg. Her balls were rather famous in the day.

 

[HisLegendaryMajest]

When royals go on an visit oveseas, how many people travel with them? What different people go with them? Hair and make up artists, assistants? How many security people go with them?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

When royals go on an visit oveseas, how many people travel with them? What different people go with them? Hair and make up artists, assistants? How many security people go with them?

I think most royals do not have a what you call "a make up artist". Most ladies will have a coiffeuse/beautician/dresser, that is a lady who does the hair and a bit of make up and helps them with dressing up. Think about the the Countess of Grantham or Lady Mary Crawley, they are always helped by one and the "head housemaid".

When they go to a foreign country, the security is in principle a responsibility for the receiving country. There will always be some bodyguards. King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima have bought a holiday villa in Greece and it became clear an expensive security fence, a separate house, a separate garage and even a boat-platform had to be constructed for the security personnel travelling with them.

To have an idea about the luggage. On June 12th 2013 Queen Máxima made a visit to Maastricht, in the province of Limbourg. She arrrived the day before and stayed at an über-posh hotel. This was the Queen's luggage for staying overnight in Maastricht: picture. There was no gala-event, so no long gowns or big jewels and already she had all this luggage. Here you see the most important people whom travelled with Queen Beatrix to a State Visit: picture

 

[Muhler]

When royals go on an visit oveseas, how many people travel with them? What different people go with them? Hair and make up artists, assistants? How many security people go with them?

There is an international thumb rule in regards to state visits:

The host country pay for the visiting dignitary (usually a couple) and up to twenty members of the entourage.
If that number is exceeded (like when the US president is visiting) the visiting country pay for the extra guests.

The purpose is presumably to keep the costs for state visits down to an acceptable level so that even a poor country can afford it. - And presumably just as much to prevent a head of state bringing an entourage of 800, who must all be housed and catered! - Either because the head of state wants to show off or annoy the host.

 

[IloveCP]

Queen Mathilde's ladies in waiting:

Queen Mathilde: Entourage: Mathilde's ladies-in-waiting

 

[carlota]

why it is useful to have a lady in waiting: mary's hofdame, carrying her coat today

https://www.flickr.com/photos/137448118@N06/22163058273/in/photostream/lightbox/
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS9cqNbWsAARQPm.jpg

also, this is a picture of Clotilde Boël with queen Margrethe - i guess ladies in waiting get 'lent' to foreign royals and high dignitaries whilst visiting their countries.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mzECgdmBwT0/VXVj8PQl1uI/AAAAAAAAMJQ/Kc9BuSXOJxg/s1600/1.jpg


Clotilde de Peñaranda de Franchimont (°1968) (married to Harold Boël, and goes by the name of Clotilde Boël. They have 2 daughters: Charlotte (°1995) and Agnès (°1997). Clotilde studied Archaeology and is involved in modern art projects at the University of Brussels.)


from http://queenmathilde.blogspot.com/2015/03/entourage-mathildes-ladies-in-waiting.html

 

[CyrilVladisla]

How Courteous?

How courteous do you believe the Royals are?

 

[Curryong]

Do you mean to the general public, those they meet on engagements or staff, servants etc ? I believe that most born royals have had good manners to all drilled into them from childhood. Also it is not good PR to be rude to those you meet on public engagements.

As for private life, well, every Royal person is still a human being underneath! It's natural to get angry, annoyed frustrated with people and situations sometimes and then courtesy slips.

As far as the BRF are concerned various stories slip out over years, Charles shouting at aides, valets, Diana subjecting underlings to the silent treatment so they would resign, Sophie losing her temper at an RPO, to illustrate the point.

Funnily enough, although I can well imagine most members of the BRF letting off steam and being discourteous sometimes on private occasions, I just can't imagine the Queen doing so. There was the time in the early 1950's when she clashed with Charles's nanny and therefore the woman was let go but I don't think there was a row before the sacking.

 

[Osipi]

Do you mean to the general public, those they meet on engagements or staff, servants etc ? I believe that most born royals have had good manners to all drilled into them from childhood. Also it is not good PR to be rude to those you meet on public engagements.

As for private life, well, every Royal person is still a human being underneath! It's natural to get angry, annoyed frustrated with people and situations sometimes and then courtesy slips.

As far as the BRF are concerned various stories slip out over years, Charles shouting at aides, valets, Diana subjecting underlings to the silent treatment so they would resign, Sophie losing her temper at an RPO, to illustrate the point.

Funnily enough, although I can well imagine most members of the BRF letting off steam and being discourteous sometimes on private occasions, I just can't imagine the Queen doing so. There was the time in the early 1950's when she clashed with Charles's nanny and therefore the woman was let go but I don't think there was a row before the sacking.

There was a story once upon a time where the Queen and the DoE got into a tiff and she aimed something (I think it was a shoe or similar) and let it fly as Philip's retreating figure went through the door.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, that was a spousal tiff (and an amusing one) but I do think that the real test of whether royals are courteous or not is how they treat staff, underlings, those who run their charities, people like that. I think every royal couple on this earth have had marital tiffs on occasion, and that includes kings, queens, emperors throughout time.