Rival Claimants to the French Throne 1: Ending 2020

[Perillos]

Had a restoration in favor of the Orléanistes been effected, then yes, Madame la Comtesse de Paris would have been Queen of France; had there been a Legitimiste restoration in favor of the Bourbon-Anjou claimant, Madame would have been only the Duchesse d'Orléans. By all accounts Madame was a lovely person in life; however the House of Orléans historically has brought nothing but disgrace to France since "Philippe Egalité", and that husband of hers was no better than his ancestors. Better France should remain a republic than ever have to suffer the princes of Orléans on her throne ever again.

 

[Helena]

I believe that the Duke of Vendome and the duke of Angoulme are very decent men, so I do not see your problem. Only a small fraction of the french monarchists are so-called 'legitimists'...and even a smaller number are napoleonists...most of the monarchists in france support the house of Orléans! The claims of Don Luis Alphonso are very meagre, and besides that, to suffer a great-grandson of the spanish dictator, fascist and mass-murderer Franco on the french throne would be very unacceptable as well!

 

[Perillos]

"Philippe Egalité" and his son Louis-Philippe committed crimes against the legitimate kings of France, Louis XVI, Charles X and Henri V. If Orléanistes hold that the crimes of Franco can be visited upon his great-grandson, they had best not look too closely at the past of their own dynasty - nor should they throw stones.

The ancient "lois fondamentales du Royaume" state that the "Ainé des Capetiens" is the King of France, without further qualification beyond order of birth. It has nothing to do with popularity nor the size of one faction versus the other. The "Ainé des Capetiens" is Louis-Alphonse, duc d'Anjou. It matters not where he was born or who his maternal great-grandfather was.

His wedding, tentatively scheduled for next September, should be a glittering affair and a focal point for all French monarchists.

 

[Helena]

what about the treaty signed when Louis XIV robbed the Habsburgers of their spanish throne & installed his grandson the duke of Anjou there as Felipe V? I believe that the members of this branch of the house of capet lost their claims on the throne of France. Also, the Duc of Berry stated that the only pretenders after his death would be the the house of Orléans

 

[Perillos]

Are you referring to the Treaty of Utrecht? Louis' grandsons were closer relatives (grandnephews) to the deceased Carlos II of Spain than the Habsburg Archduke Karl, who was a very distant cousin. The Spanish succession laws did not disqualify female inheritance, so the descendants of Marie-Therese, daughter of Felipe IV and consort of Louis XIV were eligible to succeed as closest heirs. The Dauphin and his eldest son the Duc de Bourgogne were the heir-apparent and heir-presumptive of France, so the claim was passed to the third in line in terms of hereditary primogeniture - Philippe, Duc d'Anjou. The French just had to fight a long and costly war in order to secure his rightful succession against the Habsburg usurper.

The terms of the Treaty of Utrecht stated only that one king could not wear both crowns - those of France and Spain - simultaneously. In fact, when it looked as though the infant Louis XV might not survive a life-threatening illness, Felipe V did abdicate the throne of Spain in favor of his son Luis in anticipation of assuming the throne of France. Louis XV recovered, and shortly thereafter Luis of Spain died, whereupon his father reclaimed the Spanish throne. The Treaty of Utrecht, contrary to what the Orléans princes have claimed since 1883, did not compel Felipe V of Spain or his descendants to renounce their claims to France, and they were never written out of the Almanachs du Cour before 1830 (when Louis-Philippe of Orléans usurped the throne) or superceded in the line of succession by the cadet line of Orléans.

And I'm not sure who you are referring to as the Duc de Berry, who was assassinated in 1820 and was the father of the future Henri V. I suspect you are referring here to Henri V by his childhood title, Duc de Bordeaux, which he shed upon becoming Head of the Royal House of France and was subsequently styled "Comte de Chambord" in exile. If this is the case, then the answer is no - Henri V specifically and pointedly did not recognize the Orléans princes as successors. In his will, Henri left his personal effects to his nephew, Robert, Duke of Parma, while he left the symbols of royal authority in his possession, the Collars of the Ordres du Roi, to the new "Ainé des Capetiens" - Carlos, the Duke of Madrid. The Orléans princes have never been able to produce a single shred of evidence to support their contention that Henri V regarded them as next in the order of succession; had he done so, he would have left the Collars to the Comte de Paris instead. At Henri's funeral, the Orléans princes were not given the place of honor in the chapel, but were instead placed behind all the other branches of the House of Bourbon (Spain, Two Sicilies, and Parma). Had Henri recognized the Comte de Paris as his successor, he would have been given the place of honor. As it was, the Comte de Paris presumptuously announced Henri's death to the European courts, assuming a function that was not his to carry out.

The only advantage the Orléans princes has to advance their claims is the support of a majority of French monarchists who prefer them because they have lived in France since 1950. In terms of legal rights, they have none. Time and time again they have tried to assert their rights while denying the rights of the elder line in French courts, and each time they have failed.

"L'Ainé des Capetiens c'est le roi de France..."

 

[Perillos]

The headship of the Royal House of France is disputed; to many, Madame la Comtesse de Paris was simply the de jure Duchesse d'Orléans. The Orléans line is the least senior of all the surviving lines of the House of Bourbon, though many consider all those lines senior to it to have forfeited all claims to the throne of France. The debate has been going on since the death of France's last legitimate monarch, Henri V, in 1883. Henri, called the Comte de Chambord during his long years of exile, willed the grand collars and other insignia of state belonging to the "Ordres du Roi" not to the Orléans claimant, but to the Duke of Madrid, the next senior Bourbon in terms of male primogeniture. "Legitimistes" today still consider the claim to France's throne to properly rest in the Spanish branch with Don Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez Bordiu, whom they consider to be HRH Louis Alphonse of France, Duc d'Anjou, or "Louis XX" of France and Navarre.

 

[tiaraprin]

Upon reading The Royal Families of Europe by Geoffrey Hindley, he puts forth the arguments for who is the true heir of the French Crown. He discusses the Orleans branch, the Spanish Borbons, the Napoleons, and a couple of others--including HM Queen Elizabeth II!!

Who is the true heir and why??? I am curious to hear your opinions!!!!

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

]I really don´t think that HM Queen Elizabeth II is the person who are going to be the real heir to the French crown and neither the rest of her family becaus they have allredy spoilede the English crown.

 

[Aubisse]

Heir of the royal family of Bourbon (kings of France from 998 to 1830) : Monseigneur Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou et de Bourbon.

Heir of the royal family of Orléans (one king : Louis-Philippe 1830 - 1848) : Monseigneur Henri de France, comte de Paris, duc de France

Heir of the imperial family of Bonaparte : Son altesse impériale le Prince Napoléon

 

[hillary_nugent]

So exactly which one of these families are the true heirs to the throne?
i've been told that the royal family of Orleans are the true heirs.
by the way do the French Royalties get the same special treatment like other royalties and are they still considered royalties???

 

[carlota]

i would say that according to the situation nowadays luis alphonse deserves the throne. he was the only one present in thursday's funeral for luis xvii heart... apart from that, the bourbon's family was the one in charge of the throne after the revolution...

 

[Sancia]

Yes, but the last king of the Frenchs (and not the king of France) was Louis-Philippe Ier, firm the Orleans family. The currents heirs are his descendants.

 

[tiaraprin]

What about the Treaty of Utrecht, which Louis XIV signed, stating that his grandson Philip, upon becoming King of Spain, renounced all his rights to the French throne for him and his descendants? If this holds up, then Louis Alphonse has no claim.

I love playing devil's advocate The answer to this question is quite complicated!

 

[Splodger]

Originally posted by Moonlightrhapsody@Jun 16th, 2004 - 2:46 pm
I'm sure this is stupid of me to ask, but what does it mean when they say "pretender to the throne"? I've seen this phrase applied to the Russian and French royal circles.

This isnt a dictionary perfect reference, however basicaly a Pretender to a throne is someone who 'pretends' to be king, or claiment of a throne after that throne has been officialy abolished. So Russia & France for example both have officialy abolished the monarchy, therefore the PRETENDER is the person who claims their 'pretence' to the throne following their belife in former dynastic rules of succession.

King Constantine of Greece is and isnt a pretender as although the monarchy has been abolished, he was crowned king. a pretender has usualy not ever been king but would have been if the regime hadnt been abolished.

 

[claudia]

The real heirs to the French Throne are the Orléans.
When the Count of Chambord died, his legal heir in relation to the french royal family and chief of the French Royal Family was the Count of Paris.

Luis-Alfonso of Borbón, has no title, from his spanish side ( royal ), his father cames from a morganatic marriage and was made duke and Royal Highness by Francisco Franco. When the Duke of Cadiz died, the title returned to the royal family and to the king of Spain.
The same happened with the title of Duke of Angouleme and Duke of Anjou, both belongs to the royal house of France, when Philip V, renounced to his french titles and rights the title that he had as french prince ( duke of Anjou ) returned to the House of France.
Luis-Alfonso, his father and the legitimist are wrong and should not be causing all this troubles and confusions.
The chief of the Royal House of France ( Orléans or Bourbon ) is the actual Count of Paris Henri d´Orléans , Orléans-Braganza.

The King of Spain recongnized the Orléans as the real Heirs.

 

[Charles]

As for my opinion, the heir to France is Henri d'Orléans, Comte de Paris et Duc de France.

France was last a kingdom under Louis Philippe and he is the direct heir.

 

[tiaraprin]

What about the French court ruling in 1997 that the Treaty of Utrecht was not legally valid, thus making the Spanish Borbons the direct heirs because they descend directly from Louis XIV and the Orleans branch only from Louis' brother Phillipe??

I love playing the devil's advocate!!! :woot:

 

[Charles]

The last instatement of the French throne was under Louis Philippe. The last royal laws are thus valid at his reign and in favour of his descendants.

The treaty never had a bearing on their claim as it is the last valid one.

 

[Aubisse]

According to the french law of succession (i.e. 'La loi Fondamentale du Royaume') no one can choose the next king of France, even the actual one. The king must be the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage.

According to the treaty of Utrecht, the king of Spain cannot be also king of France.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is the elder mâle of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage. He is not king of Spain. He is the only one who can be the true king of France.

But I am afraid, we shall have to wait before the return of our King ...

 

[grecka]

It will be a cold day in hell before there's another King of France. Nobody wants it, and France is better off as a republic than as a monarchy, as almost every country that has changed from monarchy to republic is.

 

[Aubisse]

See "Royal Family of France" : all Orleans and Bonaparte are there. To find the duke of Bourbon and Anjou, look at "Louis Alphonse of Bourbon".

 

[hrhcp]

I haven't read through all of this thread ... but on a whimsical note, I hope some-one has made reference to
'De Gaulle' being the "True Successor to the French Throne"
after his comment in the 1970's of "Vivre Le Quebec Libre" !

 

[Aubisse]

Henry became the head of the Bourbon family of France but his marriage to Theresa of Austria-Este (Modena) remained childless. So after his death in 1883 the french branch of the Bourbon family had died out & only italian and spanish branches excisted. The successionrights went to the descendants of the brother of Louis XIV, the Orleans family.

First my political opinion :

Orleans were a cadet line and still are. The problem is that they were the only line beeing France resident, and royalists were very nationalists. The other problem was thas the elder line of the Bourbon family was the Carlist line, quite unfashionable. So the larger part of french royalists became "Orleanists", an very few made allegeance to the Spanish Bourbon.
In the middle of the XXst century, the carlist line became extinct and king Alfonso XIII of Spain, in exile, became the head of the Bourbon family. His elder son remained childless, the second, don Jaime, was deaf. So the third Don Juan became heir to the Spanish throne. He was the father of King Juan Carlos. Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon is the only surviving grandson of the said do Jaime. His father, Alphonse, died in a ski accident.

Orleans family was very popular in France up to the seventies. They were glamourous, had a large family, married european royalties. Then came divorces, scanals and disturbing political attitudes from the Count of Paris.

Alphonse of Bourbon raised and went quite often to France. He was glamourous and a conservatist catholic. So more and more french royalists "voted" for him.

Leading geneologists, most of the french aristocracy, magazines and other royal families all support the Orleans claim, even King Juan-Carlos of Spain!
I have a much higher opinion of the duke de Vendome then of Luis-Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez. As I said, the entire issue is caused by the dislike of some people of the Orleans family & that is why they searched & searched untill they found someone vein enough to support them in their childish battle.

Leading geneologists (...) support the Orleans claim

: can you give me ONE name

most of the french aristocracy (...) support the Orleans claim

: I found one in Provence, that's all. There are few aristocrats in the association supporting Orleans claim (IMRF). There are two dukes - Bauffremont and Clermont-Tonnerre - at the head of the association supporting Louis Alphonse de Bourbon

(...) all support the Orleans claim, even King Juan-Carlos of Spain!

Of course Louis Alphonse beeing quite popular in spanish aristocracy too, Juan Carlos don't want him to shadow his children

I have a much higher opinion of the duke de Vendome then of Luis-Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez.

It's because you support him.


That was my political opinion. An now again my legal one again:



According to the french law of succession (i.e. 'La loi Fondamentale du Royaume") no one can choose the next king of France, even the actual one. The king must be the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage.

According to the treaty of Utrecht, the king of Spain cannot be also king of France.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage. He is not king of Spain. He is the only one who can be the true king of France. See Louis-Alphonse Of Bourbon Forum.

 

[Iain]

Upon reading The Royal Families of Europe by Geoffrey Hindley, he puts forth the arguments for who is the true heir of the French Crown. He discusses the Orleans branch, the Spanish Borbons, the Napoleons, and a couple of others--including HM Queen Elizabeth II!!

Queen Elizabeth isn't even the rightful monarch of Britain never mind of France.

 

[Warren]

Heirs to spare

:Who is the proper heir? I'm so lost!!

If you support the Orléanists, then it's HRH Henri VII, Comte de Paris, formerly Comte de Clermont, Duke of France, Head of the Royal House of France;

If you think the Orléans are a usurping and regicidal branch of the Bourbon dynasty, loyalty would lie with Louis Alfonso, Duke of Touraine, Duke of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou, "Primogeniture Representative of the House of France."

If you are a Bonapartist you would support HIH Charles, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House of France;

BUT if you accept the intention to bypass Charles as stated in the will of his father, the late HIH Louis, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House, then the rightful Head of the Bonapartes is Charles's son, HIH Prince Jean-Chrisophe.

Plenty to choose from here! Most accept the Comte de Paris as the rightful heir to the Throne of France because he is the direct descendant of the last reigning King, Louis Philippe I.

Prince Charles Bonaparte is a descendant of Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's youngest brother, who reigned as King of Westphalia 1807-1813. Napoleon I's only son died in 1832 unmarried, and Napoleon III's only son was the Prince Imperial who died tragically in Zululand in 1879.
.

 

[Idriel]

Thanks Warren. I'm even more confused now! LOL!
Hum? Vive la Republique? LOL!

 

[Avalon]

There are 2 current French pretenders (not counting Charles Bonaparte, who is the pretender to the Imperial Throne of France).
One of them is Comte de Paris, the other is the so-called Spanish line.
After the death of the childless legitimist pretender "Henry V", Comte de Chambord (grandson of King Charles X of France), most accepted his selection of the heir, the Orleanist Pretender, Comte de Paris (grandson of King Louis-Phillipe, who descends from the second son of King Louis XIII). Few, however argue that the rightful descendant is the descendant of Louis XIV (Spanish line).
The point of the argument is that Prince Philip (King Philip V of Spain) renounced any claims (including future) to the French throne, upon becoming the King of Spain. Therefore the Dukes of Orleans were recognized as the rightul heirs (after the direct line) before the French Revolution. The opposite group says that this renunciation was invalid and impossible (some also point that Philippe Egalite and Louis-Philippe forfeited any rights to the throne for disloyalty during the FR).
Personally I recognize Comte de Paris as the rightful heir.

 

[Russian]

I would like that France have won Validity, Legality, Honour and Decency. I think, it is possible only with restoration of monarchic authority. For me the monarchic authority is the legitimist kingdom. I am the supporter of Legality and validity, therefore I am legitimist. If French legitimists consider that lawful king of France is the Spanish prince Luis Alfonco de Bourbon, I need to agree with these French monarchists.

I know sad history of Egalite and his son Louis-Philippe. Still so it is known, that Louis-Philippe perfectly knew, that last king of France Charles has renounced in favour of the grandson because Louis-Philippe had the letter from Charles in whom this duke was appointed regent owing to small age of the grandson of king Charles. However Louis-Philippe has preferred to become king, instead of to execute will of King of France Charles. Do not forget, Louis-Philippe named King of crowd. Therefore for me their descendants cannot become successors of the French throne.

 

[Toledo]

On the hypothetical question Who is the right heir to the French throne?

There is the rightful person, which I guess is the direct male descendant of the senior branch. That is young Luis Alfonso, son of the late Duke of Cadiz and grandson of the older brother of King Juan Carlos' father, the Count of Barcelona.

But, rightful person aside, I'll rather go for the most appropiate candidate: The Bonaparte Heir. Why?
First he is an Imperial Prince, so far in my book that's a little more rank than Royal
Second, he married a House Bourbon-Two Sicilies Royal Princess and that makes their son a descendant from the Capets, like all the Bourbon, Borbon, Borbone and Orleans and Orleans-Braganza branches. So the one that combines both historical periods, past and present is my winner.

Not that it matters because as Grecka so vividly put it...

It will be a cold day in hell before there's another King of France...

 

[jovan66102]

It's really simple. If you love the Revolution, mass murder and oppression of the Church, you support the House of Orleans.

If you love France, you support the House of France in the person of le duc d'Anjou!