Princely Family of Liechtenstein Current Events 3: May 2007- Aug 2023

[SirGyamfi1]

Hereditary Prince Alois speaks out for only allowing males to rule Liechtenstein, saying this maintains "stability" and avoids having too many members of the princely family.

Liechtensteins Erbprinz gegen Frau an Spitze - Vaterland online

The latter statement is an odd one coming from the regent of a family with over 100 members, per its website, and no plans to revise the House Law to limit the membership of the Princely House.

He does not financially support all the 100+ members and the other branches of the family don’t live in
Liechtenstein.

 

[Alisa]

It's a rather sexist attitude to equate male rulership with stability. I suppose he thinks Queen Beatrix, Queen Margrethe, and Queen Elizabeth(the longest reigning monarch in history) has brought instability to their kingdoms and realms.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

It's a rather sexist attitude to equate male rulership with stability. I suppose he thinks Queen Beatrix, Queen Margrethe, and Queen Elizabeth(the longest reigning monarch in history) has brought instability to their kingdoms and realms.

I don’t think that he thinks badly of the Queens you have mentioned, but the Liechtenstein Princely family were formed by the old Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire) laws about Princely status and probably just want to keep it that way. Not to mention, I don’t believe that any of the women in the family are miffed about the succession because most of them don’t live there and there are plenty of sons from different branches.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

He does not financially support all the 100+ members and the other branches of the family don’t live in
Liechtenstein.

The Hereditary Prince was the one who claimed to be concerned that allowing the crown to pass to women would enlarge the princely family. As you say, it could be argued that there is no financial or optical difficulty with enlarging the family, but HSH presented it as a possibility so concerning that it justifies sexism in constitutional law, and his stated rationalization is inconsistent with his own behavior in allowing the family to be enlarged to 100+ members.

I don’t think that he thinks badly of the Queens you have mentioned, but the Liechtenstein Princely were formed by the old Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire) laws about Princely status and probably just want to keep it that way.

Yes, that is most likely what he meant (although the argument would apply to Queen Margrethe as she succeeded to the throne due to a change in the law). It is not clear why he believes that allowing a female head of state would be more "destabilizing" than any of the other legal reforms (e.g., extending voting rights to women) which have been enacted in the principality over time.

Not to mention, I don’t believe that any of the women in the family are miffed about the succession because most of them don’t live there and there are plenty of sons from different branches.

I don't think living outside of Liechtenstein would guarantee agreement with the ban on women on the throne; it could very well be the other way around, given that some of the women living outside of Liechtenstein will have experience of female heads of state or government.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

The Hereditary Prince was the one who claimed to be concerned that allowing the crown to pass to women would enlarge the princely family. As you say, it could be argued that there is no financial or optical difficulty with enlarging the family, but HSH presented it as a possibility so concerning that it justifies sexism in constitutional law, and his stated rationalization is inconsistent with his own behavior in allowing the family to be enlarged to 100+ members.

Well it would enlarge the family in terms of succession and those 100 + members are from other branches who don’t live in Liechtenstein and as long as his own branch will continue to have sons, it is not really a big issue.


Yes, that is most likely what he meant (although the argument would apply to Queen Margrethe as she succeeded to the throne due to a change in the law). It is not clear why he believes that allowing a female head of state would be more "destabilizing" than any of the other legal reforms (e.g., extending voting rights to women) which have been enacted in the principality over time.

The Liechtenstein family are a Princely family so their structure is different from a Royal one like Queen Margarethe’s and I think he simply does not want dynasty change, and the extension of the suffrage or voting rights to women will not influence changes to the succession because Liechtenstein is a very small country and I don’t believe many people there think deeply on that. Also He mentioned something about if the succession is changed, then the women would have to run the family’s bank in addition to representative duties. Also none of women are involved in the running of the bank.




I don't think living outside of Liechtenstein would guarantee agreement with the ban on women on the throne; it could very well be the other way around, given that some of the women living outside of Liechtenstein will have experience of female heads of state or government.

When I’m saying that the women in the family live outside of Liechtenstein, I’m saying that their lives are not seriously impacted by the succession because they are not well known there and have their own lives outside of Liechtenstein, the media focuses on the Hereditary Couple ( Sophie and Alois) not on the personal business of other members who don’t live there.

Thanks, Tatiana Maria, for this insight!

Yeah, the laws... The Liechtensteins rode to fame and glory and tremendous wealth on the side of the House of Habsburg. And when the Habsburgs had no male heirs, they simply changed their "iron house laws" - Maria Theresia became Archduchess and Queen. So...!

In the early days when the Princely family lived in the Holy Roman Empire, they initially lost properties because back then they weren’t Catholic, but Protestant and converted to Catholicism later on. The House laws weren’t necessarily changed, it was either choose Maria Theresia or dynasty change and the male lines of the Austrian and Spanish branches were extinct.

 

[Alisa]

I don’t think that he thinks badly of the Queens you have mentioned, but the Liechtenstein Princely family were formed by the old Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire) laws about Princely status and probably just want to keep it that way. Not to mention, I don’t believe that any of the women in the family are miffed about the succession because most of them don’t live there and there are plenty of sons from different branches.

Who's to say what he meant? By now he should know that he out to be more careful with his words.
The converse is true as well. There are so many princes of Liechtenstein and the vast majority of them don't live in the principality. In the end it really makes no difference whether women or men can become head of the house.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Who's to say what he meant? By now he should know that he out to be more careful with his words.
The converse is true as well. There are so many princes of Liechtenstein and the vast majority of them don't live in the principality. In the end it really makes no difference whether women or men can become head of the house.

I am quite sure that those are his trains of thoughts because the Princely family are the last true legally recognized part of the former Holy Roman Empire. Those numerous family members are not followed or well known in Liechtenstein because they don’t do royal duties in Liechtenstein or live there.

Who's to say what he meant? By now he should know that he out to be more careful with his words.
The converse is true as well. There are so many princes of Liechtenstein and the vast majority of them don't live in the principality. In the end it really makes no difference whether women or men can become head of the house.

It does make a difference to them because that would mean dynasty change for them. Also the person ruling would also be in charge of running the banking business, family foundations amongst other things.

 

[Alisa]

Again..matters not. It would simply be a change to get accustomed to.
The reigning Prince is actually not in charge of running the banking business and other foundations. When you look at who is in charge of LGT, the Princely art collections, wine company, their rice company...etc. None of that is ran by the head of the house.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Again..matters not. It would simply be a change to get accustomed to.
The reigning Prince is actually not in charge of running the banking business and other foundations. When you look at who is in charge of LGT, the Princely art collections, wine company, their rice company...etc. None of that is ran by the head of the house.

The reigning Prince and Aloïs are actually involved, there’s a reason there’s a saying that Hans Adam is the monarch works in the morning so he can reign in the afternoon when he used to actually be in charge. Why would they want to ever consider dynasty change? Of course other family members are involved in the running of the businesses, but Hans Adam will obviously be aware of the running and ongoing of business matters. They view the family structure and status as a princely house differently from other royals so that’s their prerogative. Also no one in Liechtenstein cares about the leadership of the family as long there is stability in their country and I highly doubt that Liechtensteiners are overly concerned about how other reigning houses change their succession laws.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The reigning Prince and Aloïs are actually involved, there’s a reason there’s a saying that Hans Adam is the monarch works in the morning so he can reign in the afternoon when he used to actually be in charge. [...] Of course other family members are involved in the running of the businesses, but Hans Adam will obviously be aware of the running and ongoing of business matters. They view the family structure and status as a princely house differently from other royals so that’s their prerogative.

I agree, but I see no reason that structure would be more likely to change under a female head than a male one.

Why would they want to ever consider dynasty change?

There was no suggestion of dynasty change.

Also no one in Liechtenstein cares about the leadership of the family as long there is stability in their country

"No one" is quite a sweeping statement; could you back it up? If there are no citizens or residents of Liechtenstein who view male-only rule negatively, then one wonders why the Hereditary Prince felt the need to defend his position in a Liechtenstein newspaper.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I agree, but I see no reason that structure would be more likely to change under a female head than a male one.




There was no suggestion of dynasty change.




"No one" is quite a sweeping statement; could you back it up? If there are no citizens or residents of Liechtenstein who view male-only rule negatively, then one wonders why the Hereditary Prince felt the need to defend his position in a Liechtenstein newspaper.

It would change because the name of the dynasty would change and as I stated they are a Holy Roman Empire Princely family, regardless of whether or not with the fact that we all know that the Holy Roman Empire does not exist, the point is that these types of families won’t change their structures to accommodate change of leadership in the family and they have a traditional outlook on what constitutes a Princely family. He’s probably had to defend his view on the succession because a certain rights movement criticized it some years ago and when I say no one, I mean the majority of citizens there aren’t overly worried about it. I have looked up, but I see little that questions the succession

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It would change because the name of the dynasty would change

Should the house laws ever be modified to allow women to succeed to the headship of the house, corresponding modifications would certainly be introduced to allow female heads of the house to retain and transmit the name, arms, membership, etc. of the dynasty.

and as I stated they are a Holy Roman Empire Princely family, regardless of whether or not with the fact that we all know that the Holy Roman Empire does not exist, the point is that these types of families won’t change their structures to accommodate change of leadership in the family and they have a traditional outlook on what constitutes a Princely family.

I agree that the princely house is traditional, even old-fashioned, in many respects, but that neither exempts it from criticism nor precludes the possibility of changes to structures or traditions. Under the leadership of Prince Hans-Adam, the old house laws were replaced with a fresh house constitution in 1993 because, quoting the new house constitution: "In parts the old provisions no longer met modern requirements." And, as many have pointed out, the House of Liechtenstein was also the first European reigning house in modern times to accept a consort of Black African descent into the family when Angela Brown became Princess Angela of Liechtenstein on marrying the son of the reigning prince.

He’s probably had to defend his view on the succession because a certain rights movement criticized it some years ago and when I say no one, I mean the majority of citizens there aren’t overly worried about it. I have looked up, but I see little that questions the succession

There is a significant difference between a minority and no one, so thank you for the clarification.

 

[Alisa]

The reigning Prince and Aloïs are actually involved, there’s a reason there’s a saying that Hans Adam is the monarch works in the morning so he can reign in the afternoon when he used to actually be in charge. Why would they want to ever consider dynasty change? Of course other family members are involved in the running of the businesses, but Hans Adam will obviously be aware of the running and ongoing of business matters. They view the family structure and status as a princely house differently from other royals so that’s their prerogative. Also no one in Liechtenstein cares about the leadership of the family as long there is stability in their country and I highly doubt that Liechtensteiners are overly concerned about how other reigning houses change their succession laws.

I never said that they are not involved. I said they are not in charge. Big difference.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I never said that they are not involved. I said they are not in charge. Big difference.

Hans Adam actually said that the person who would be Head of house would be involved in the running of the banks, foundations and art collections and real estate. He had been running and trying to reorganize since the family officially moved to the principality so he had been involved and was managing the assets, but overtime he has retired from some functions naturally as he is getting older, and he continues to manage the art collections with curators.

Should the house laws ever be modified to allow women to succeed to the headship of the house, corresponding modifications would certainly be introduced to allow female heads of the house to retain and transmit the name, arms, membership, etc. of the dynasty.



I agree that the princely house is traditional, even old-fashioned, in many respects, but that neither exempts it from criticism nor precludes the possibility of changes to structures or traditions. Under the leadership of Prince Hans-Adam, the old house laws were replaced with a fresh house constitution in 1993 because, quoting the new house constitution: "In parts the old provisions no longer met modern requirements." And, as many have pointed out, the House of Liechtenstein was also the first European reigning house in modern times to accept a consort of Black African descent into the family when Angela Brown became Princess Angela of Liechtenstein on marrying the son of the reigning prince.




There is a significant difference between a minority and no one, so thank you for the clarification.

I’m sorry but Angela’s marriage doesn’t really compare into the issue of the structure of the Princely family and if we are going to have that discussion, I highly doubt he would be accepting of the marriage if it was his eldest son and someone who talked about the marriage in the Liechtenstein thread about Max and Angela’s marriage addressed that it was not about Angela’s race for Hans Adam, but simply the fact that Angela was a commoner just as they were allegedly disappointed with their daughter Tatjana’s marriage to an untitled nobleman. Of course, there were family members who didn’t support the marriage for some not so nice reasons, but I highly doubt Max or Hans Adam were concerned about that. The only instance I see them changing the succession is if there are no available males, which is not going to happen for a long time as there are plenty of males in the succession along with the Austrian branch to continue. Also, Max is a second son with only one male child who is obviously in the succession, but Aloïs has three sons and if they live long and have sons the succession won’t alter. Of course, naturally changes have happened under Hans Adam, but I highly doubt altering the succession will be one of them unless a serious emergency happened.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I didn't say that I expected Hans-Adam to remove the ban on women on the throne. I expect he won't, as it was he who introduced the ban, if I'm not mistaken. (Traditionally, the succession in the house of Liechtenstein was semi-Salic, meaning that a woman would be allowed to succeed if the male lines became extinct.) And I assume Alois had his father's backing in making those comments.

I was responding to the argument that the family has "a traditional outlook on what constitutes a Princely family" and to the argument that the family would never implement structural change.

I’m sorry but Angela’s marriage doesn’t really compare into the issue of the structure of the Princely family

No restructuring of the Princely House would be necessary to accommodate a woman as head of the family, only some minor adjustments to the house constitution. Nonetheless, I cited a previous instance of comprehensive structural change in my last post, namely the replacement of the house laws.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I didn't say that I expected Hans-Adam to remove the ban on women on the throne. I expect he won't, as it was he who introduced the ban, if I'm not mistaken. (Traditionally, the succession in the house of Liechtenstein was semi-Salic, meaning that a woman would be allowed to succeed if the male lines became extinct.) And I assume Alois had his father's backing in making those comments.

I was responding to the argument that the family has "a traditional outlook on what constitutes a Princely family" and to the argument that the family would never implement structural change.



No restructuring of the Princely House would be necessary to accommodate a woman as head of the family, only some minor adjustments to the house constitution. Nonetheless, I cited a previous instance of comprehensive structural change in my last post, namely the replacement of the house laws.

This is news to me! When did they ever have a semi-Salic succession? Was it was when they officially moved to Liechtenstein in 1938? My point was based on the fact that they have not changed the succession so they probably have a traditional outlook on what constitutes a Princely family and have remained that way for centuries. Changing the succession would alter the structure because female descendants would be added to the succession and it would be co-agnatic. Were the house laws about marriage or membership and titles? If it was about membership and titles, that’s one thing. Can you kindly clarify which type of house law? I feel like I am deviating in this thread, if the moderators have a problem, then can we kindly PM about this? I hope I am not going off topic in this thread

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Changing the succession would alter the structure because female descendants would be added to the succession and it would be co-agnatic.

Well, following the same logic, the aforementioned changes of accepting interracial marriages and marriages to commoners also altered the structure because biracial descendants and half-commoner descendants were added to the succession. But irrespective of the semantic definition of structural change, my point was that, in spite of their traditionalism and Alois's argument about "stability", the family has made major alterations to their house laws and customs, not to mention the principality.

This is news to me! When did they ever have a semi-Salic succession? Was it was when they officially moved to Liechtenstein in 1938? [...] Were the house laws about marriage or membership and titles? If it was about membership and titles, that’s one thing. Can you kindly clarify which type of house law? I feel like I am deviating in this thread, if the moderators have a problem, then can we kindly PM about this? I hope I am not going off topic in this thread

The only other thread where this discussion would seem to be on topic is Liechtenstein Princely Family: History, Genealogy and Sovereign Princes, where I've answered your questions about the house laws.

 

[solina]

I would argue that changing the succession law doesn't have a practical reason for now. Hans Adam II, Alois and Joseph Wenzel are all the first-born and the son. I imagine the issue may rise if Joseph Wenzel ends up having a daughter as the first-born.
After carefully read through HRH Princess Sophie's biography on the official website, it is my belief that the family still values titles very much. In the first paragraph, Sophie's noble heritage is stressed: "She descends in a direct line from the last Bavarian King Ludwig III. He was her great-great-grandfather." I have the feeling that the family would expect a blue blooded hereditary princess for Joseph Wenzel as well. Perhaps that is why Joesph Wenzel's girlfriend is never seen on public event.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I would argue that changing the succession law doesn't have a practical reason for now. Hans Adam II, Alois and Joseph Wenzel are all the first-born and the son. I imagine the issue may rise if Joseph Wenzel ends up having a daughter as the first-born.
After carefully read through HRH Princess Sophie's biography on the official website, it is my belief that the family still values titles very much. In the first paragraph, Sophie's noble heritage is stressed: "She descends in a direct line from the last Bavarian King Ludwig III. He was her great-great-grandfather." I have the feeling that the family would expect a blue blooded hereditary princess for Joseph Wenzel as well. Perhaps that is why Joesph Wenzel's girlfriend is never seen on public event.

Why we never see Joseph Wenzel’s girlfriend (s) is because the media in Liechtenstein generally respects the privacy of the family in personal matters and Wenzel isn’t engaged yet, so the relationship right now may or may not be that serious.

Well, following the same logic, the aforementioned changes of accepting interracial marriages and marriages to commoners also altered the structure because biracial descendants and half-commoner descendants were added to the succession. But irrespective of the semantic definition of structural change, my point was that, in spite of their traditionalism and Alois's argument about "stability", the family has made major alterations to their house laws and customs, not to mention the principality.




The only other thread where this discussion would seem to be on topic is Liechtenstein Princely Family: History, Genealogy and Sovereign Princes, where I've answered your questions about the house laws.

When I’m referring to structure of the princely family, I’m actually referring to the laws governing succession and transmission of titles, not racial or marital policies. Most of those family members apart from the main branch of the Hereditary Prince and his regent and son-law as well as children of the eldest son don’t live in Liechtenstein and apart from Max, most of the family members aren’t married to people of different ethnicities outside Europe. Marriages to commoners happened long before Max married Angela and there are notable examples. They’ve made changes no doubt, but that does not mean that altering the succession would be one of those unless there are no more male dynasts.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

When I’m referring to structure of the princely family, I’m actually referring to the laws governing succession and transmission of titles, not racial or marital policies.

In that case, you must have missed my acknowledgement, in the post to which you responded (post #348), that female succession would require some minor adjustments to the house laws.

Marriages to commoners happened long before Max married Angela and there are notable examples.

Yes, but I was referring to this earlier comment you wrote:

"[someone] addressed that it was not about Angela’s race for Hans Adam, but simply the fact that Angela was a commoner just as they were allegedly disappointed with their daughter Tatjana’s marriage to an untitled nobleman".

They’ve made changes no doubt, but that does not mean that altering the succession would be one of those unless there are no more male dynasts.

Happy that we agree on that fact.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

In that case, you must have missed my acknowledgement, in the post to which you responded (post #348), that female succession would require some minor adjustments to the house laws.




Yes, but I was referring to this earlier comment you wrote:

"[someone] addressed that it was not about Angela’s race for Hans Adam, but simply the fact that Angela was a commoner just as they were allegedly disappointed with their daughter Tatjana’s marriage to an untitled nobleman".



Happy that we agree on that fact.

I never said that they never could make changes in their matters, but that the succession and leadership are unlikely given the numerous males. I mentioned Angela and Max because you also mentioned them and he’s a second son so his marriage would be less of an issue than Aloïs even though they allegedly hoped that he too would make a glittering marriage like his older brother and Prince Constantin, but Angela is an accepted member of their family and the Hereditary Prince was present at the wedding.

 

[solina]

Why we never see Joseph Wenzel’s girlfriend (s) is because the media in Liechtenstein generally respects the privacy of the family in personal matters and Wenzel isn’t engaged yet, so the relationship right now may or may not be that serious.

Marie Caroline is seen with the same man a few times, most recently at Princess Marie's funeral. Of course I am not sure if Marie Caroline is engaged or not.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Marie Caroline is seen with the same man a few times, most recently at Princess Marie's funeral. Of course I am not sure if Marie Caroline is engaged or not.

Really? Either way, unless the media in Liechtenstein reports on it I don’t know what to think.

 

[eya]

From August 27th to 29th, Hereditary Prince Alois and Princess Tatjana took part in this year's European Forum Alpbach, which has the general theme "The New Europe".

https://www.volksblatt.li/medien/attachments/thumbnails/resize/1232x819/-Z6W8015.jpg

https://www.volksblatt.li/nachricht...gierungschef-am-europaischen-forum-in-alpbach

 

[Biri]

A Princely Engagement!

Prince Johann-Wenzel of Liechtenstein (b.16 March 1993) [son of Prince Gundakar of Liechtenstein (b.1949) & his wife, Princess Marie of France (b.1959)] got engaged to Countess Felicitas von Hartig (b.10 April 1994) [daughter of Count Lukas von Hartig (b.1964) & his wife Claudia, nee Toperczer (b.1965)] on 25 August; they are going to marry next summer.

Johann-Wenzel is third of five children, elder son and first one who marries.

Sources: Descendants of King Louis Philippe I of the French
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...htenstein.html
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ci-31WzLotp/

 

[Toledo]

Prince Johann-Wenzel of Liechtenstein (b.16 March 1993) [son of Prince Gundakar of Liechtenstein (b.1949) & his wife, Princess Marie of France (b.1959)] got engaged to Countess Felicitas von Hartig (b.10 April 1994) [daughter of Count Lukas von Hartig (b.1964) & his wife Claudia, nee Toperczer (b.1965)] on 25 August; they are going to marry next summer.

Johann-Wenzel is third of five children, elder son and first one who marries.

Sources: Descendants of King Louis Philippe I of the French
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...htenstein.html
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ci-31WzLotp/

She's beautiful. And checking out the link of the descendants of King Louis Phillipe made my head spin, it's like an entire town and even adds in the current House Napoleon family too.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Prince Johann-Wenzel of Liechtenstein (b.16 March 1993) [son of Prince Gundakar of Liechtenstein (b.1949) & his wife, Princess Marie of France (b.1959)] got engaged to Countess Felicitas von Hartig (b.10 April 1994) [daughter of Count Lukas von Hartig (b.1964) & his wife Claudia, nee Toperczer (b.1965)] on 25 August; they are going to marry next summer.

Johann-Wenzel is third of five children, elder son and first one who marries.

Sources: Descendants of King Louis Philippe I of the French
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...htenstein.html
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ci-31WzLotp/

I wonder if many members of the Orleans family will come to the wedding

 

[Toledo]

I wonder if many members of the Orleans family will come to the wedding

Imagine if every member alive and able to travel comes to the celebration, that would be one of the biggest family reunions in history. Practically everyone's line is representing the history of Europe from east to west and the Americas.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Imagine if every member alive and able to travel comes to the celebration, that would be one of the biggest family reunions in history. Practically everyone's line is representing the history of Europe from east to west and the Americas.

I’m sure many members of the Princely family will come, the Princely family is also very big with members living in Central Europe, the U.K and U.S as well. I’m sure much of the German, Austrian, Bohemian nobility will come too

 

[eya]

Prince Johann-Wenzel of Liechtenstein (b.16 March 1993) [son of Prince Gundakar of Liechtenstein (b.1949) & his wife, Princess Marie of France (b.1959)] got engaged to Countess Felicitas von Hartig (b.10 April 1994) [daughter of Count Lukas von Hartig (b.1964) & his wife Claudia, nee Toperczer (b.1965)] on 25 August; they are going to marry next summer.

Johann-Wenzel is third of five children, elder son and first one who marries.

Sources: Descendants of King Louis Philippe I of the French
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...htenstein.html
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ci-31WzLotp/

From the Count of Paris:

"H.S.H. Prince Johann-Wenzel of and in Liechtenstein got engaged on August 25, 2022 in Sicily to Countess Felicitas von Hartig.
Monsignor the Count of Paris and Madame the Countess of Paris extend their congratulations to LL.AA.SS. Prince and Princess Gundakar from and to Liechtenstein, to Count and Countess Lukas von Hartig and best wishes to the future spouses."

https://www.instagram.com/p/CjBIXjGq10A/