Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, Naomi Kern and Family: 2022 -

[maria-olivia]

If Noami Kern did not tell to german newspapers that she was so glad to be a Princess and a Royal Highness , the Comte de Paris should not have written this.

Petty, very petty. The count of Paris seems to be an absolutely absurd person. A statement like this and a decision like this in 2023. We can only be thankful that France has abolished the monarchy. What a family.

 

[Benjamin]

Perhaps she is disappointed, but if she went ahead and announced that she would be a princess without asking/receiving consent from the head of her future husband's house, then I imagine she will accordingly call herself a princess even without his consent. Is the Gala interview online?

Here is the link to the Gala interview: https://www.gala.de/stars/news/naomi-valeska-kern--sie-wird-prinzessin--23039822.html

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Wouldn't it be unusual to take HRH from a child? That didn't happen in Denmark or Britain.

I'm not sure I even understand why this proactive announcement is being made with no announcement of a wedding date. Did I miss something?

I was responding to your remark "that didn't happen....in Denmark" about children losing HRH, which actually did happen.

But I am pretty confused right now about how Britain and Denmark entered this discussion at all.

Maybe our wires have crossed somewhere?

As for Ms. Kern, she seems a fairly sophisticated woman. She must understand that becoming HRH Duchess of Anjou in any Royal House...but particularly in the French Royal House involves a little more than simply exchanging civil wedding vows. As the Count of Paris rather priggishly but accurately pointed pointed out, it simply isn't done that way. Her fiancé is still married in the eyes of the Church of Rome. And in the 1000 year history of the defunct monarchy, that is the ONLY thing that counts.

Shame on Charles Philppe for not helping her understand and allowing her to proudly proclaim herself the future HRH Naomi d'Orleans Duchess d'Anjou. He knows-or should know- better.

 

[maria-olivia]

You are right.
More than 320 posts on the french noblesse et royautés against the Count de Paris !

 

[Prinsara]

I was responding to your remark "that didn't happen....in Denmark" about children losing HRH, which actually did happen.

But I am pretty confused right now about how Britain and Denmark entered this discussion at all.

Maybe our wires have crossed somewhere?

Yes, I believe so. I meant that no HRH was taken from a child as a result of divorce, with Britain and Denmark being relatively recent cases.

As for the fiances and actual title issues, calling herself a future princess may have been gauche and anything from overly-excited to calculating, but what the much-more visible Comte is doing seems unnecessarily and preemptively coldblooded. If it's necessary according to canon law, then there's no need for him to stress it, especially with no actual wedding date.

Unless they are eloping this weekend, he just lost a lot of sympathy.

 

[Sancia]

If it's necessary according to canon law, then there's no need for him to stress it, especially with no actual wedding date.

The wedding is actually planned in six weeks, on 9th September. The couple has turned up Naomi's Instagram account into a common Instagram account, on which the date has been announced.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Yes, I believe so. I meant that no HRH was taken from a child as a result of divorce, with Britain and Denmark being relatively recent cases.

As for the fiances and actual title issues, calling herself a future princess may have been gauche and anything from overly-excited to calculating, but what the much-more visible Comte is doing seems unnecessarily and preemptively coldblooded. If it's necessary according to canon law, then there's no need for him to stress it, especially with no actual wedding date.

Unless they are eloping this weekend, he just lost a lot of sympathy.

I agree with you but I believe the Comte's comments are more directed at the Widow Kern than his cousin C-P. According to the Noblesse et Royautes site, she has been bouncing all over the posh places of Europe gleefully anticipating her new title(s). Why hasn't C-P put a stop to it? Is he afraid of upsetting his fiancee or is he stupid enough to believe that he can remarry in full accordance with the French Royal House laws in a civil ceremony, without the approval of the Holy See? And how disrespectful to his former wife and their child to permit this.

I don't disagree with a word of the Comte's communique. As head of even a defunct Royal House, it was not only his right but his responsibility to do so.
My only quibble is that it was communicated so publically.

Nothing but hard feelings will be the likely result.

In any case, Tatiana Maria is probably right when she predicted that Naomi and C-P will continue to claim full Royal titles etc after their civil wedding in September, regardless of what the Count of Paris says.

 

[maria-olivia]

Yes , but I don't know if King Felipe , Princess Isabelle Godfather, will see again Charles Philippe and his future wife Kern

 

[Prinsara]

The wedding is actually planned in six weeks, on 9th September. The couple has turned up Naomi's Instagram account into a common Instagram account, on which the date has been announced.

All right, now there is a date. Although I only read the announcement in translation, did it not say "if he remarries civilly", and not "when"? And Ms. Kern was not acknowledged, nor even mentioned by name. So either the Comte had no idea of an upcoming ceremony or he did know and decided to put this out in unnecessarily cold, vague (and public) terms.

Saying "after his civil marriage C-P [will lose the HRH] and Ms. Kern will be Mme Charles-Philippe, c'est tout" is slightly more civilized. Even if Ms. Kern gave great offense deliberately and not in ignorance and even if Charles-Philippe did nothing to stop it, why descend to the same level?

 

[Somebody]

All right, now there is a date. Although I only read the announcement in translation, did it not say "if he remarries civilly", and not "when"? And Ms. Kern was not acknowledged, nor even mentioned by name. So either the Comte had no idea of an upcoming ceremony or he did know and decided to put this out in unnecessarily cold, vague (and public) terms.

Saying "after his civil marriage C-P [will lose the HRH] and Ms. Kern will be Mme Charles-Philippe, c'est tout" is slightly more civilized. Even if Ms. Kern gave great offense deliberately and not in ignorance and even if Charles-Philippe did nothing to stop it, why descend to the same level?

Of course the Count of Paris knew - otherwise he wouldn't have published a statement anticipating this specific wedding.

 

[crm2317]

To be honest this whole situation is amusing to me. Do the people at play here realise that France is a republic? That they are no more royal than you or I? If it is true that Ms Kern has been boasting of becoming a princess, a princess of where?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

All right, now there is a date. Although I only read the announcement in translation, did it not say "if he remarries civilly", and not "when"? And Ms. Kern was not acknowledged, nor even mentioned by name. So either the Comte had no idea of an upcoming ceremony or he did know and decided to put this out in unnecessarily cold, vague (and public) terms.

Would it not have been more diplomatic to word the announcement even more "vaguely" as a statement of policy without referring to any specific individuals? One of the criticisms on this forum of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark's downsizing announcement last year was that she should have referred to "children of younger children" or such instead of specifically to Prince Joachim's children.

My only quibble is that it was communicated so publically.

Nothing but hard feelings will be the likely result.

To be fair to him, it appears it is public knowledge that the head of the house is considered an authority over the titles of his family members (I believe Charles-Philippe was created Duke of Anjou by the previous head of the house), so in the absence of a public statement from him, those who are interested in the family may have assumed that Naomi-Valeska Kern's announcement about her future titles was made with his approval. Given that he is apparently a devout Catholic, he may have wanted to be clear that he is not being hypocritical by giving his blessing - and titles - to marriages which are noncompliant with the church rules.

If it's necessary according to canon law, then there's no need for him to stress it, especially with no actual wedding date.

But as noted earlier, his father's house rules recognized legal marriages with or without church recognition, so even if Jean's policy of recognizing only church-recognized marriages is more "traditional", it represents a break from the most recent practice.

Petty, very petty. The count of Paris seems to be an absolutely absurd person. A statement like this and a decision like this in 2023. We can only be thankful that France has abolished the monarchy. What a family.

You are right.
More than 320 posts on the french noblesse et royautés against the Count de Paris !

Is it more petty or absurd than the comments which are rife on royalty forums, social media, news media and wiki articles etc. about how so-and-so is not a "real" prince, princess, royal, heir, or member of the house because they are "only" descended from a royal family through a female line or by adoption?

At least this particular comment of Jean's is not about discrimination against people on the basis of their gender or their ancestry, only discrimination between couples who follow family traditions and the family's church's rules for their marriages and those who do not.

To be honest this whole situation is amusing to me. Do the people at play here realise that France is a republic? That they are no more royal than you or I? If it is true that Ms Kern has been boasting of becoming a princess, a princess of where?

In the interview linked by Benjamin she does say she will become a princess. A rough translation:

Interviewer: Your fiancé is a descendant of the French kings. Will you become a princess by marriage?

Naomi-Valeska Kern: Yes, I'll become a princess all of a sudden. (laughs) My husband's title is Royal Highness Prince Charles-Philippe of Orléans, Duke of Anjou – and so I'll be Royal Highness Princess Naomi-Valeska of Orléans, Duchess of Anjou.

Interviewer: Does the title come with duties?

Naomi-Valeska Kern: No, but I think it will offer opportunities. And it means responsibility for a cultural and moral inheritance, since it relates to more than 1000 years of history of rule over France and part of Europe.

https://www.gala.de/stars/news/naomi-valeska-kern--sie-wird-prinzessin--23039822.html

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Just finished up reading on the fairly recent history of the French Orleans dating back to the early 20th century and WHEW!! What a messy, dysfunctional dynasty!

The Windsors and the Grimaldi now seem snoozeworthy in comparion.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Is it more petty or absurd than the comments which are rife on royalty forums, social media, news media and wiki articles etc. about how so-and-so is not a "real" prince, princess, royal, heir, or member of the house because they are "only" descended from a royal family through a female line or by adoption?

At least this particular comment of Jean's is not about discrimination against people on the basis of their gender or their ancestry, only discrimination between couples who follow family traditions and the family's church's rules for their marriages and those who do not.




In the interview linked by Benjamin she does say she will become a princess. A rough translation:



https://www.gala.de/stars/news/naomi-valeska-kern--sie-wird-prinzessin--23039822.html

It’s not that petty because being a member of a royal or noble family in a specific sense is about identifying who is and who is not for clarity and to prevent people from usurping identities, titles etc that don’t belong to them. These things normally have legitimacy and convention usually in reigning monarchies. Many Europeans descend from Charlemagne but that doesn’t really make them royal because it’s based on the type of matrimonial alliances made that counts because it’s easier to trace through those alliances in comparison. For example, Peter Philips can say his mother is a Princess because she is the daughter of the late QEII but that does not make him a Prince. Being a descendant of a family doesn’t necessarily make you a “member” in the patrilineal sense.

Just finished up reading on the fairly recent history of the French Orleans dating back to the early 20th century and WHEW!! What a messy, dysfunctional dynasty!

The Windsors and the Grimaldi now seem snoozeworthy in comparion.

Please what book did you read? I want to know.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It’s not that petty because being a member of a royal or noble family in a specific sense is about identifying who is and who is not for clarity and to prevent people from usurping identities, titles etc that don’t belong to them. These things normally have legitimacy and convention usually in reigning monarchies. Many Europeans descend from Charlemagne but that doesn’t really make them royal because it’s based on the type of matrimonial alliances made that counts because it’s easier to trace through those alliances in comparison. For example, Peter Philips can say his mother is a Princess because she is the daughter of the late QEII but that does not make him a Prince. Being a descendant of a family doesn’t necessarily make you a “member” in the patrilineal sense.

So, according to your thinking, why don't you view the Count of Paris's statement as petty (I assume you don't, as you haven't made the same "it's not that petty" comment about his statement)?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

So, according to your thinking, why do you view the Count of Paris's statement as petty (I assume you do, as you haven't made the same "it's not that petty" comment about his statement)?

I don’t have much to say on the Count’s statement actually, when I said “petty” it wasn’t necessarily about his statement but you saying :
Is it more petty or absurd than the comments which are rife on royalty forums, social media, news media and wiki articles etc. about how so-and-so is not a "real" prince, princess, royal, heir, or member of the house because they are "only" descended from a royal family through a female line or by adoption?

At least this particular comment of Jean's is not about discrimination against people on the basis of their gender or their ancestry, only discrimination between couples who follow family traditions and the family's church's rules for their marriages and those who do not.”

So, according to your thinking, why do you view the Count of Paris's statement as petty (I assume you do, as you haven't made the same "it's not that petty" comment about his statement)?

I don’t have much to say on the Count’s statement actually, when I said “petty” it wasn’t necessarily about his statement but you saying :

Is it more petty or absurd than the comments which are rife on royalty forums, social media, news media and wiki articles etc. about how so-and-so is not a "real" prince, princess, royal, heir, or member of the house because they are "only" descended from a royal family through a female line or by adoption?

At least this particular comment of Jean's is not about discrimination against people on the basis of their gender or their ancestry, only discrimination between couples who follow family traditions and the family's church's rules for their marriages and those who do not.”

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Pardon me, I typed "do" when I meant to write "don't." I meant to write:

So, according to your thinking, why don't you view the Count of Paris's statement as petty (I assume you don't, as you haven't made the same "it's not that petty" comment about his statement)?

I don’t have much to say on the Count’s statement actually,

That's what I thought. Therefore my (now corrected) question still applies.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Please what book did you read? I want to know.

I was Googling archived articles in publications such as Point de Vue, Paris Match and Jours de France. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

As for my opinion on the Count of Paris's statement...the only thing "petty" about it is that it was communicated so publicly. Because point by point, nothing he stated is untrue. The marriage between his cousin and Kern will be valid by civil law but invalid and non sacramental according to Canon law. French Royal House rules require the latter as well as the former.

As much as I have reservations about Jean's ability to take the moral high road here, I do very much appreciate his acknowledging the respect and consideration due to HRH Diana Duchess de Cadaval and little Princess Isabelle.

Ms. Kern was naive at best and indiscreet at worst by making those remarks about her anticipated Royal titles after her civil wedding. What exactly did she mean by saying that the title comes with "moral" inheritance btw?

But I place the blame for the entire problem at the feet of her fiance, not Naomi.

 

[maria-olivia]

I have at home the book of Jacques , Duc d' Orleans, " les ténébreuses affaires du Comte de Paris" ( his father)

 

[rominet09]

I have at home the book of Jacques , Duc d' Orleans, " les ténébreuses affaires du Comte de Paris" ( his father)

So do I and I re-read it often !

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Count of Paris announced some news about the remarriage of Prince Charles-Philippe:

https://comtedeparis.com/communique...fyhWBnfAUC-U7jmhKhJ0img-7GGd4YnfQoQUPuHcYQQw4

Translation: https://comtedeparis-com.translate....l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Prince Charles-Philippe has revamped his website, featuring biographies of himself and his soon-to-be second wife Naomi-Valeska Kern.

I wonder if the Sovereign Prince of Monaco can be expected at their wedding since Charles-Philippe is an ambassador for Prince Albert II of Monaco's foundation and Naomi-Valeska Kern is a longtime resident of the principality and competes internationally for Monaco as a speed shooter.

https://www.ducdanjou.com/

Unsurprisingly, his website omits any mention of the Count of Paris's statement and states that "As tradition would have it, by being joined in the bond of marriage with Prince Charles-Philippe, Naomi-Valeska Kern will bear the predicate of Royal Highness and the courtesy titles of Princess Charles-Philippe of Orléans and of Duchess of Anjou."


Interesting that Naomi-Valeska stated in her Gala interview that she would be "Princess Naomi-Valeska of Orléans" whereas her future husband says she will be "Princess Charles-Philippe of Orléans". And Charles-Philippe's reference to "courtesy titles" appears to imply that the couple will not attempt to have titles for Naomi-Valeska legally recognized by the French authorities.

 

[maria-olivia]

The Magazine Hola annonced that the Civil Wedding of Charles Philippe d' Orleans with Naomie Kern will take place at Orléans on September 9th.
I thought it would be in Monaco.
According to the statement of the Comte de Paris , He will loose his SAR but is still dynast but Naomie and the Children to come will never be Princess or Prince of Orléans
I wonder which will be the family attendance ??

 

[Moonmaiden23]

The Magazine Hola annonced that the Civil Wedding of Charles Philippe d' Orleans with Naomie Kern will take place at Orléans on September 9th.
I thought it would be in Monaco.
According to the statement of the Comte de Paris , He will loose his SAR but is still dynast but Naomie and the Children to come will never be Princess or Prince of Orléans
I wonder which will be the family attendance ??

Since CP said in an interview that his mother and siblings were "ravi" over Naomi, I have no doubt at least they will attend.

I wonder if little Princess Isabelle will attend her father's nuptials?

 

[maria-olivia]

A few weeks ago ,Prince Charles Philippe Duke d' Anjou dubbed i (?) his younger brother François , Comte de Dreux, as Knight of the Order of St Lazare.
On Saturday 16 September HRH Prince François d' orleans , Comte de Dreux will be the 51e Grand Master of the Order of St Lazare during a Pontifical Mass in the Abbey of Maredsous. Royals will attend (I suppose his father le Comte d' Evreux)
The day before Leurs Altesses le Prince Francois and et la Princesse Theresa d' Orleans , Comte et Comtesse de Dreux will host a Ball at the Mercure Hotel of Namur.

Prince Charles Philippe will stay the Honorary 49e Grand Master .

 

[Marengo]

Posts about the wedding have been moved to the wedding forum, which you can find here.

 

[maria-olivia]

After the Wedding of CP, the whole family of HRH Prince Michel d' Orleans , Comte d' Evreux, his first wife Beatrice , his second wife Barbara, his daughter Clothilde and grand Son Crepy attended the Pontifical Mass at the Abbey of Mardesous where HRH Prince François , Comte de Dreux was introduced as the 51 Grand Master of the Order of St Lazarus.
His Brother Prince Charles Philippe (not HRH anymore ) is the honorary 49th Grand Master.