Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor and Family News 1: July 2005-

[julliette]

Miracle birth for Windsors

The miracle royal baby has arrived. Lord Nicholas Windsor’s wife, Lady Paola, who will be 45 in August, has given birth to a third son, a brother for Albert, six, and four-year-old Leopold.

When I broke the news of her pregnancy last month, one of their Catholic friends told me: ‘It’s a miracle Paola is having a child at her age so soon after the ceremony of the four Popes.’ This was a reference to the sainthood bestowed on Pope John XXIII and Pope John Paul II in the presence of Pope Francis and his predecessor Pope Benedict.

Lord Nicholas, 43, and his sons are not in line to the throne because they are Catholics. He converted in 2001, like his mother the Duchess of Kent before him.

He wed Paola Doimi de Lupis de Frankopan, who is half-Swedish and half-Croatian, in 2006, becoming the first member of the Royal Family to marry in the Vatican.

Read more: SEBASTIAN SHAKESPEARE: Cheer up, Cressy, it's a drama not a crisis | Mail Online
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.

 

[Ish]

Albert, Leopold, and this new baby are actually all in the line of succession and will remain so until their confirmations. Similarly, their cousin Lady Amelia Windsor is in the line of succession, while her elder siblings, Lord Downpatrick and Lady Marina are not.

 

[Spheno]

According to a very reliable source the Roman Catholic christening of Louis Windsor, third son of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor, took place in the Anglican Chapel Royal, St James's Palace, yesterday, Saturday 1 November.
The British Royals Message Board: Christening of Louis Windsor

 

[Somebody]

At what age does Confirmation in the Roman Catholic church in the UK normally take place? The eldest children of Nicholas and Paola are most likely at the age that they might be confirmed in the near future - meaning they will be without a doubt be excluded from the line of succession (as it seems their baptism did not do so - they were included on the list on the official website until they decided to cut the list by removing everyone after Zara (more recently they decided to include her children as well)).

Their three children:
Albert Windsor (b. September 22, 2007) - turning 15 soon
Leopold Windsor (b. September 8, 2009) - turning 13 soon
Louis Windsor (b. May 27, 2014) - 8 years

 

[Biri]

Maybe Albert and Leopold will be confirmed together? (like Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York).

 

[Denville]

At what age does Confirmation in the Roman Catholic church in the UK normally take place? The eldest children of Nicholas and Paola are most likely at the age that they might be confirmed in the near future - meaning they will be without a doubt be excluded from the line of succession (as it seems their baptism did not do so - they were included on the list on the official website until they decided to cut the list by removing everyone after Zara (more recently they decided to include her children as well)).

Their three children:
Albert Windsor (b. September 22, 2007) - turning 15 soon
Leopold Windsor (b. September 8, 2009) - turning 13 soon
Louis Windsor (b. May 27, 2014) - 8 years

confirmation in the RC church used to be between 10 and 12, but I think it is now a rahter older age, like anglicans. around 14 or so

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The eldest children of Nicholas and Paola are most likely at the age that they might be confirmed in the near future - meaning they will be without a doubt be excluded from the line of succession (as it seems their baptism did not do so - they were included on the list on the official website until they decided to cut the list by removing everyone after Zara (more recently they decided to include her children as well)).

I very much doubt that their former inclusion on the list would hold up in court if contested. The Parliaments of 1689 and 1701 made their intentions plain, and exclusion of children too young for confirmation is established precedent.

Previous discussions:
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/line-of-succession-to-the-british-throne-44513-5.html
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/line-of-succession-to-the-british-throne-44513-14.html

As an aside, it is ironic that if the previous Duke of Kent had moved to Germany ahead of the First World War, his patrilineal great-grandsons would now be Princes in name even though their official standing would be that of private citizens, but as matters stand, Albert, Leopold and Louis are in line to a throne and a peerage which has official standing yet are plain Master/Mr.

 

[the_qvds]

[...] now that it’s in the Daily Mail, everyone knows…!

Fresh anguish for the Duke of Kent as his son splits from his wife

RICHARD EDEN: King Charles and the Prince and Princess of Wales were among the senior members of the Royal Family to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral on Tuesday.

t.co

 

[Alison H]

That's a shame. I would say that it explains why she wasn't there, but I think she could still have turned up to pay her respects to her children's grandmother.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...] now that it’s in the Daily Mail, everyone knows…!

Fresh anguish for the Duke of Kent as his son splits from his wife

RICHARD EDEN: King Charles and the Prince and Princess of Wales were among the senior members of the Royal Family to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral on Tuesday.

t.co

Thanks. Interesting how Richard Eden of the Daily Mail seems to be the reporter of choice for minor royals and relatives of the royal family to announce their separations, though apparently it was only the Duchess of Kent's funeral that forced Lord and Lady Nicholas to publicize theirs, given that their separation already happened "some time" ago:

"'It's very sad, but the couple have been separated for some time,' a friend of the family told this newspaper yesterday.​

​

'They no longer attend family events together. Both are very conservative and dislike divorce, so apparently they will never actually get divorced.'"​

Well, Sarah, Duchess of York, continues to attend family events despite not being only separated but actually divorced...

 

[sophie25]

Thanks. Interesting how Richard Eden of the Daily Mail seems to be the reporter of choice for minor royals and relatives of the royal family to announce their separations, though apparently it was only the Duchess of Kent's funeral that forced Lord and Lady Nicholas to publicize theirs, given that their separation already happened "some time" ago:

"'It's very sad, but the couple have been separated for some time,' a friend of the family told this newspaper yesterday.​

​

'They no longer attend family events together. Both are very conservative and dislike divorce, so apparently they will never actually get divorced.'"​

Well, Sarah, Duchess of York, continues to attend family events despite not being only separated but actually divorced...

Yeah, the late Queen knew she and Andrew were together but never sanctioned her attending any family events. Charles let's her be out and about with the RF now quite frequently, Christmas Day, Easter Sunday, royal enclosure at Ascot, royal box at Wimbledon etc. I can't understand why as her presence does nothing for the popularity of the Monarchy, quite the opposite.

 

[Marengo]

The article mentions that Lady Nicholas' parents are ´Prince Louis and Princess Ingrid´. They are untitled nobles, who added 'Frankopan' to their name without being actual heirs of that noble family. The name change from Doimi di Delupis to Doimi de Frankopan Subič Zrinski only happened in the year 2000 AFAIK.

Anyway, always sad if a marriage strands. From her non-attendence perhaps things are not too amiable. What does a seperation mean in legal terms? You still work f.e. financially as one household?

Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor and Family News 1: July 2005-

Katharine has lead a very private life, the whole family has. She is known as Katharine Kent most often and i'm not surprised she wasn't in the photos. Just because the Duke is a Free Mason and an Anglican doesn't mean he cannot attend his own grandsons christening.

www.theroyalforums.com

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Queen Elizabeth II recognized Paola’s parents as “Don” and “Donna”, Italian honorifics reserved for the highest levels of nobility, typically members of princely families.

(There seems to be frequent confusion between Italy and Spain, where Don and Doña were long used for nobility of any rank, and nowadays even for commoners. In Italy, however, a member of a mere untitled noble family would not have been addressed as Don or Donna.)

“ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE ENGAGEMENT OF LORD NICHOLAS WINDSOR

26 September 2006

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ISSUED BY THE PRESS SECRETARY TO THE QUEEN

The Duke and Duchess of Kent are pleased to announce the engagement of their son Nicholas to Paola, daughter of Don Louis and Donna Ingrid Doimi de Frankopan of London.”

Wayback Machine

In any case, all Italian noble titles were legally abolished when the current constitution of Italy, which states “Titles of nobility shall not be recognised”, entered into force in 1948.

https://www.quirinale.it/allegati_statici/costituzione/costituzione_en.pdf

What does a seperation mean in legal terms? You still work f.e. financially as one household?

There is a procedure of legal separation in the UK, which allows a couple to arrange division of property or maintenance payments as a divorced couple might. But in common parlance “separated” is also used to describe couples whose romantic relationship has ended but are not legally or financially separated, or even necessarily living apart.

 

[the_qvds]

Thanks. Interesting how Richard Eden of the Daily Mail seems to be the reporter of choice for minor royals and relatives of the royal family to announce their separations, though apparently it was only the Duchess of Kent's funeral that forced Lord and Lady Nicholas to publicize theirs, given that their separation already happened "some time" ago:

"'It's very sad, but the couple have been separated for some time,' a friend of the family told this newspaper yesterday.​

​

'They no longer attend family events together. Both are very conservative and dislike divorce, so apparently they will never actually get divorced.'"​

Well, Sarah, Duchess of York, continues to attend family events despite not being only separated but actually divorced...

Sarah is very well a member of the Royal Family in almost all aspects. Period. She’s loved by everyone in the family. Fun and gracious. She had her life mistakes but never actually left the family.

Thanks. Interesting how Richard Eden of the Daily Mail seems to be the reporter of choice for minor royals and relatives of the royal family to announce their separations,

No, Tatiana Maria, this has not been announced by Nicholas and Paola. A BP spokeperson (who represents all the family) declined to comment. It was a family friend who confirmed it to the Daily Mail reporter and the only other time he published about another separtion first was that of Lady Davina, so only 2 times. I wouldn’t say he’s the “choice”.

 

[Somebody]

As was mentioned in the funeral thread. She was also missing at the late queen’s funeral, so it has been suggested that they were already separated at that time.

 

[An Ard Ri]

That's a shame. I would say that it explains why she wasn't there, but I think she could still have turned up to pay her respects to her children's grandmother.

Yes it is a shame and explains her absence from the funeral.

 

[Benjamin]

Nicholas, Paola, and their sons have lived in Italy since 2010: Lady Nicholas Windsor spotted at Rome event

 

[MarleneKoenig]

and I got thanked for the tip

A royal separation

royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com

 

[PrincessofEurope]

and I got thanked for the tip

A royal separation

royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com

Potentially since 2019 that is a lot longer than i anticipated. Shame for all parties.

 

[SLV]

Potentially since 2019 that is a lot longer than i anticipated. Shame for all parties.

I rather like it that it has only come out now. They are private people and fortunately for them, this has been kept private for over five years apparently. All for the better for their sons.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I suspected that they were separated, but still hoped that I was wrong. They were a lovely couple and family.

 

[MarleneKoenig]

Potentially since 2019 that is a lot longer than i anticipated. Shame for all parties.

actually most likely 2018. I updated my article. they attended the Queen's birthday concert at Royal Albert Hall in April, but she was not on the balcony at the Trooping in June. Why shame - perhaps they just drifted apart. Doubt they will divorce

 

[MarcBgd]

Queen Elizabeth II recognized Paola’s parents as “Don” and “Donna”, Italian honorifics reserved for the highest levels of nobility, typically members of princely families.

(There seems to be frequent confusion between Italy and Spain, where Don and Doña were long used for nobility of any rank, and nowadays even for commoners. In Italy, however, a member of a mere untitled noble family would not have been addressed as Don or Donna.)

“ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE ENGAGEMENT OF LORD NICHOLAS WINDSOR​

​

26 September 2006​

​

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ISSUED BY THE PRESS SECRETARY TO THE QUEEN​

​

The Duke and Duchess of Kent are pleased to announce the engagement of their son Nicholas to Paola, daughter of Don Louis and Donna Ingrid Doimi de Frankopan of London.”​

​

Wayback Machine

In any case, all Italian noble titles were legally abolished when the current constitution of Italy, which states “Titles of nobility shall not be recognised”, entered into force in 1948.

https://www.quirinale.it/allegati_statici/costituzione/costituzione_en.pdf

There is a procedure of legal separation in the UK, which allows a couple to arrange division of property or maintenance payments as a divorced couple might. But in common parlance “separated” is also used to describe couples whose romantic relationship has ended but are not legally or financially separated, or even necessarily living apart.

Well, historically, they had the right to use the prefix Don/Donna as members of an ancient untitled nobility. Let's not forget the fact that the whole Croatian coast was at one point was the territory of the Venetian Republic, which indicated Italian rules for nobility...and as Paola's line of the Doimi family was established in Vis island for centuries, they were incorporated into the Venetian nobility and therefor could socially use their prefix of nobility, that they would use officially if the nobility was not abolished. In other countries, where the nobility is abolished, many former noble people are still called by their titles in most cases.

Here is their ancestral palace in Vis:

Palača Vukašinović - Dojmi de Lupis - Turistička zajednica grada Visa

Palača Vukašinović - Dojmi de Lupis

www.vis-tourism.com

When de Lupis is translated to Croatian, it is Vukašinović. The Vukašinović Palace was inherited by the Vis noble family Dojmi (Doimi), who, after the Vukašinovićs died out in the 19th century, added their surname to their own, becoming Dojmi de Lupis (de Lupis – Vukašinović).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thank you for looking into the family history.

Well, historically, they had the right to use the prefix Don/Donna as members of an ancient untitled nobility.

I do not know about custom in ancient times. But in more recent times (while an official Italian nobility still existed), the honorific Don/Donna was limited to the highest (princely) ranks of nobility, not used for untitled nobility.

Italian Titles of Nobility - Regalis

History and ranks of Italian titles of nobility.

web.archive.org

"Principe, Principessa. (Prince, Princess). From the Latin princeps, meaning first, this is the highest Italian title of nobility, and also the title accorded members of the royal families. Many of Italy's noble princes, particularly in northern regions, are princes "of the Holy Roman Empire," and lack feudal territorial designations attached to their titles. Some southern princes descend from the most ancient medieval feudatories. In most cases, the holder of a princely title in Italy is the descendant of forebears who in antiquity were barons or counts, the family having been elevated through the nobiliary ranks over the centuries. Until the latter part of the nineteenth century, princes were addressed most formally as "Your Excellency," a form of address that may be compared, in this instance, to the British use of "Your Grace" for a duke or duchess. The wife of a prince is a princess. The younger son of a prince, and the heir before succession to the title, is a nobile dei principi di (seat), namely a "noble of the princes of" some place. Use of the honorific appellations don (lord) and donna (lady) for the son and daughter of a prince is obsolete except in formal documents issued by institutions that recognize Italian titular nobility. Princes and their consorts are most formally addressed verbally by title and territorial designation."​

 

[Tatiana Maria]

No, Tatiana Maria, this has not been announced by Nicholas and Paola. A BP spokeperson (who represents all the family) declined to comment. It was a family friend who confirmed it to the Daily Mail reporter

Yes, that’s correct. However, unless there is evidence to the contrary, I usually presume that a family friend or the like who comments to the press about their royal friend is doing so with their blessing. It is quite normal in the public-relations world to have one’s cake and eat it too (as the expression goes), by officially refusing to comment through an attributed spokesperson, but commenting unofficially through friends or anonymous sources.

For some discussion on this as it relates to the British royal family (please move my comment there if needed), see here:

British Royal Family and the Media

Over the last few weeks/months, we've seen very different approaches by the two courts in regards to dealing with the media. More in general, it seems the British court - unlike for example the Scandinavian courts - prefer to provide information 'off the record' (called 'briefings') which makes...

www.theroyalforums.com

and the only other time he published about another separtion first was that of Lady Davina, so only 2 times. I wouldn’t say he’s the “choice”.

Richard Eden also announced the separation of Princess Margaret's husband's daughter Frances von Hofmannsthal and her husband Rodolphe (thus, I included “relatives of the royal family” in my comment). I thought he also announced the split of the Earl and Countess of Snowdon, but as I don’t have that on hand, I may have misremembered.

Late photographer Lord Snowdon's daughter and art dealer husband split

Yeah, the late Queen knew she and Andrew were together but never sanctioned her attending any family events. Charles let's her be out and about with the RF now quite frequently, Christmas Day, Easter Sunday, royal enclosure at Ascot, royal box at Wimbledon etc. I can't understand why as her presence does nothing for the popularity of the Monarchy, quite the opposite.

Sarah is very well a member of the Royal Family in almost all aspects. Period. She’s loved by everyone in the family. Fun and gracious. She had her life mistakes but never actually left the family.

So Sarah, Duchess of York is the exception to the rule, whereas Lady Nicholas’s absence from family events is the norm for separated/divorced spouses in the British royal family?

Why shame - perhaps they just drifted apart.

Well, most people are not hoping to drift apart from their spouse.

 

[MarcBgd]

Thank you for looking into the family history.



I do not know about custom in ancient times. But in more recent times (while an official Italian nobility still existed), the honorific Don/Donna was limited to the highest (princely) ranks of nobility, not used for untitled nobility.

Italian Titles of Nobility - Regalis

History and ranks of Italian titles of nobility.

web.archive.org

"Principe, Principessa. (Prince, Princess). From the Latin princeps, meaning first, this is the highest Italian title of nobility, and also the title accorded members of the royal families. Many of Italy's noble princes, particularly in northern regions, are princes "of the Holy Roman Empire," and lack feudal territorial designations attached to their titles. Some southern princes descend from the most ancient medieval feudatories. In most cases, the holder of a princely title in Italy is the descendant of forebears who in antiquity were barons or counts, the family having been elevated through the nobiliary ranks over the centuries. Until the latter part of the nineteenth century, princes were addressed most formally as "Your Excellency," a form of address that may be compared, in this instance, to the British use of "Your Grace" for a duke or duchess. The wife of a prince is a princess. The younger son of a prince, and the heir before succession to the title, is a nobile dei principi di (seat), namely a "noble of the princes of" some place. Use of the honorific appellations don (lord) and donna (lady) for the son and daughter of a prince is obsolete except in formal documents issued by institutions that recognize Italian titular nobility. Princes and their consorts are most formally addressed verbally by title and territorial designation."​

I agree with you, but it seems they adopted the custom of untitled nobility using prefix Don (knights or younger sons of noblemen) as some sort of distinction. They obviously wanted to show that Don is not exclusively for those with high noble titles (princes, dukes, etc.), but is extended in some cases to families of an old nobility / hereditary knights who may not hold a higher title (untitled nobility) but satisfy certain historical/use-based criteria.

LUPPIS LUPIS DI DALMAZIA

If you take a look at their genealogy, all untitled members of the family were listed as Don/Donna.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Thank you, I must read that very detailed genealogy when I have more time.

It seems to show the family as being a branch of the marquesses of Soragna, so perhaps that is the reason for the usage of Don/Donna?

 

[MarcBgd]

Well, I could not know for certain, but based on the Lupis family page, they trace their ancestry in the Kingdom of Siciliy. And the honorific Don/Donna were already well established forms of address in the medieval and early-modern Kingdom of Sicily for members of the higher social orders—both titled and untitled nobles. Maybe due to this connection they thought they had the right to socially (as nobility officially doesn't exist anymore) style themselves as they did.

La Casata dei Lupi - I Rami Vitali

Famiglia Lupis

www.lupis.it