King Paul I (1901-1964) and Queen Frederika (1917-1981)

[BELTRANEJA]

When the coffin of Princess Dina passes in front of the Queen of England, Queen inclined her head. Was gesture of Queen Elizabeth II hypocritical?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Queen Frederika did not just bow or acknowdge the new queen of Greece, she performed a curtsy which is an entirely different story - please consult the video again

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I think that the problem is not in gesture, it is in the word that you have used for define the gesture of Queen Federika "hypocritical".It is true the Queen Federika was the Queen, she had not to make a curtsy, but it is not a hypocritical gesture, she wanted that her gesture symbolized the fact that Greece had a new Queen.

 

[snowflower]

Many people then viewed that gesture as hypocritical in a way . When Frederika curtsied in from of Anne Marie she made a statement, she acted in a way that showed she believed Greece had another Queen from that moment and that she was nothing more that the Dowager Queen, the King's mother. Yet many people, including royalists didn't believe that the Queen ment it, they were sure that she would not remove herself from the spotlight and that she would not stop interfering with matters that were unconstitutionally irrelevant to her, the same way she acted during Paul's reing. That's why that gesture was characterized as hypocritical by many many people

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I think that the problem is not in gesture, it is in the word that you have used for define the gesture of Queen Federika "hypocritical".It is true the Queen Federika was the Queen, she had not to make a curtsy, but it is not a hypocritical gesture, she wanted that her gesture symbolized the fact that Greece had a new Queen.

What I said was that it was considered which means that this is how it was perceived by various parties at the time not how it is perceived by me, although I do not disagree with that interpretation. And I fully agree with Sunflower's analysis.

 

[Jaya]

When the coffin of Princess Diana passes in front of the Queen of England, Queen inclined her head. Was gesture of Queen Elizabeth II hypocritical?

No the gesture was not hypocritical but you know the Greek saying "Greece eats its children"So no matter what Frederika did even to be positive; like knowing about five languages.perfect protocols etc.. was always regarded badly by the Greeks for some reason.She curtseyed and I think it was genuine.
People love to speculate do they not?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Yes, they do love to speculate and I think Queen Elizabeth was literally "bowing" to public pressure by inclining her head as the coffin of her ex-daughter-in-law passed before the Queen. What Frederika did was acknowledge a new reigning consort, although not reigning for long, unfortunately.

 

[wartenberg7]

A majesty does not bow to another majesty except in the case I indicated above.



Used to think this way, too. But both Queen Mary curtseyed her son and daughter-in-law at their 1937 coronation, as well as she did when she met her granddaughter Elizabeth for the first time after she came home from Africa after the sudden death of King George VI.
Elizabeth, the Queen Mother curtsey twice at her daughters coronation in 1953.
So you cannot say a Majesty never curtseys another Majesty in general.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

You are wrong. In fact, I have already quoted precisely what you claim above as exceptions. So you are only agreeing with me.
The difference, lies with the fact that Frederika was correct to bow to her son, but incorrect to bow to her daughter-in-law.
When Queen Mary bowed to Queen Elizabeth II and so did her mother at the coronation in 1953, the rationale was that these majesties were just consorts of sovereigns, while Elizabeth II was sovereign majesty. Thus, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother were bowing to the sovereign ruler of the United Kingdom.

There is a huge difference, between a queen-consort and a sovereign queen.
Both Frederika and Anne-Marie were consort-queens. Thus, the did not have to bow to one-another, except perhaps Anne-Marie to her mother-in-law, as brides do their mother-in-law [Greek custom].

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

You may have a point there. Elizabeth II is Queen regnant, whereas both Mary and Elizabeth were queen consorts. But since the queen consort is also acknowledged as "Your Majesty" wouldn't it be proper for a dowager queen to curtsy to her daughter-in-law if that daughter-in-law is the queen consort? Wouldn't the current queen consort be the first among equals when compared to a dowager queen?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

You may have a point there. Elizabeth II is Queen regnant, whereas both Mary and Elizabeth were queen consorts. But since the queen consort is also acknowledged as "Your Majesty" wouldn't it be proper for a dowager queen to curtsy to her daughter-in-law if that daughter-in-law is the queen consort? Wouldn't the current queen consort be the first among equals when compared to a dowager queen?

A first among equals for sure, but this would be no reason to declare obedience to. Obedience is declared only to the sovereign ruler of a country/nation. Neither Frederika, nor Anne-Marie were symbol of the nation nor did they play a specific constitutional role.

 

[Warren]

The correct term is obeisance, not obedience.
An obeisance is a bow or curtsey or other respectful gesture, homage or deference.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

The correct term is obeisance, not obedience.
An obeisance is a bow or curtsey or other respectful gesture, homage or deference.

And obeisance it is, with my apologies for the error. Obeisance, usually through curtsy or other gesture, indicates respect toward the sovereignty of a monarch and, by extrapolation, his/her representatives.
Thank you.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

And thus, why not have a dowager queen show obeisance not only to the sovereign but also the sovereign's consort? Is this something which is simply not done?

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

And thus, why not have a dowager queen show obeisance not only to the sovereign but also the sovereign's consort? Is this something which is simply not done?

It is not done. And it is not done, I think, because a sovereign's consort holds no cosntitutional office such that another majesty should show obeisance to. But I would love to hear dissenting opinions on the matter.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I don't believe others show obeisance to the King because of the constitutional office but they bow and curtsy because he is the King. The Queen is the wife of the King, his consort, and is addressed as "Your Majesty." Again, what is wrong with a dowager queen bowing or showing obeisance to the wife of the King. Wouldn't this be similar to a show of order of precedence?

 

[Warren]

Yes, a curtsey from one family member to another seems an odd point of criticism.
I'm sure there are greater issues for which the late Queen can be held to task rather than her gesture of showing homage/deference/respect to the new Queen Consort.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

@Warren,

Hear, hear! Well put.

 

[amedea]

Is the bowing you are talking about the one around minute 4 of this video? YouTube - Wedding King Constantin of Greece & Anne-Marie

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Is the bowing you are talking about the one around minute 4 of this video?

Thank you for posting this video! If Frederika is the woman wearing the feathered hat, then it appears both women (Anne-Marie and Frederika) curtsied to one another, which is nice, and supports my opinion that it is a show of respect from one queen who is now a dowager to the queen consort. And vice versa.

 

[snowflower]

Thank you for posting this video! If Frederika is the woman wearing the feathered hat, then it appears both women (Anne-Marie and Frederika) curtsied to one another, which is nice, and supports my opinion that it is a show of respect from one queen who is now a dowager to the queen consort. And vice versa.

I am sure Anne Marie felt unseay then. It was her first curtsy as a Queen and it was from her mother in law. I believe her curtsying back was most likely automatic. Any way I am surprised about how royals kept protocoll back then when I think that Anne Marie used to curtsy to Constantine every time they first met after he became King - even in front of the altar on their wedding day.

 

[amedea]

I have checked the wedding thread http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...incess-anne-marie-of-denmark-1964-a-4560.html and queen Frederika was wearing an hat like that.
And I've seen and seen again the video: to me it looks like Anne Marie bows before; is it just me?? It would be very easy to explain: Anne Marie until 2 minutes before was expected to bow to the queen and the emotional moment made her do it again. Frederika bowed automatically to "save" the situation.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I am sure some nerves were involved on Anne-Marie's wedding day where she went from princess to queen but from what I've heard about Frederika, do you really think she would curtsy to "save" the situation? I don't mean to be unpleasant, and it is nice to think she would be kind to her daughter-in-law, but would Frederika violate protocol in this situation?

 

[Odette]

I agree. Anne Marie was a princess for 18 years before that day and she was quite used to royal protocol. Perhaps she was nervous but her curstsey imho was as much a sign of respect towards her mother in law as much as it was from Q Frederika to the new Queen.
The fact that Anne Marie did the same to the reigning monarch, while she was still for a few more minutes only a princess, shows that she knew what the rukes of etiquette were.

 

[snowflower]

I honestly think that in this situation, she would curtsy to "save" things. Frederika was a controversial figure during her husband΄s reign and she was I believe quite aware of this fact. IMO, this was the reason that she moved out of Tatoi after Paul΄s death and also why the wedding between Anne Marie happened at the quickest time possible, instead of the originals plans - so that she would stop being the country΄s first lady and help her son gain popularity. Anne Marie was a very sweet and amiable girl who charmed most Greeks but that is exactly was she was then - a girl. Frederika IMO could not allow people to view her as a sweet young girl, they should view her as a Queen despite her age. So, I believe that she would not allow Anne Marie to curtsy to her even if it was a simple mistake in order to send a message about which woman had which place inside the Royal Family.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

when Kings of Spain married by Catholic church in Athens, The Queen also committed a protocol error, due to nerves. When the Catholic bishop asks to the Queen Sofia, "Sofia, do you want to this man as legitimate husband....," and before say her"Yes, I want", she had that look to her father, King Pavlo, and King Pavlo bow his head , this is the request of consent of the the King to the marry. Queen Sofia said "Yes, I want"" and forgot protocol.
In 1995 in Sevilla, her daughter of Infanta Elena committed the same error of her mother.
This beautiful anecdotes are caused by nerves of the moment. The Queen Federika of Greece, this is an anecdote, a nice gesture ..

 

[Nikolopoulus]

beltranega, I think that I understand the mistake of Queen Sofia, she did not ask to her father the consent to the marry??? ..Is this??How the mistake was corrected?

the gesture of Queen Federika was correct in my opinion, new QUEEN

 

[GRspecialforces]

in a book i'm reading these days, i came across an incident that only few people know. i think i should share it with my royal friends. when they were a princely couple, at the 2nd world war, they had to leave greece and go to egypt for their protection. king farouk offered them hospitality and one night, at the dinner, he hit on frederika. you know what i mean... the princess handled the situation really smart, because the egyptian hospitality was very necessary at those times and they should avoid a diplomatic conflict between the 2 countries. the author says she was a very beautiful woman when she was young. i think the opposite, but anyway... hehe that's a personal opinion. so did anyone hear this incident before?

 

[BELTRANEJA]

..Farouk ?????? hahahahaha
Did he returned the sword to the Shah of Persia, and the clock Winton Churchill? Hahahah
King Pavlo and Queen Frederika were exiled to Egypt with their two children, and Cheila, the nanny, Lady Katherina .. They met other future menbers of Houses Royales, as Hussein of Jordan.

Queen Federica was a great woman, and a great mother ... and I refer to the words of her daughter.

 

[Maura724]

Which daughter? What did Sophie or Irene say about Frederica?