Incestuous Royal Marriages

[sinulord]

Hawaii definitely. Like Egypt Hawaiian royalty praticed sister and brother marriages although it was consider taboo to marry one's own children although they are few cases of this happening. Queen Keopuolani, Kamehameha's most sacred wife and niece was the epitome of incestual relations; her father and mother were half-siblings, her grandmother and grandfathers were close cousins. All Hawaiian chiefs at the end of the 1700s were cousins. But unlike the pharaohs of egypt the Hawaiian kings never show any genetic birth defects, but they did died really young and were unable to produce children.

The inability to produce children in itself can be an indication of genetic birth defects.

 

[Meraude]

The family tree of Charles (Carlos) II of Spain says it all: File:Carlos segundo80.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There is a number of marriages between uncles and nieces and between cousins.

 

[Meraude]

King Louis XIV of France married his first double-cousin Maria Theresa of Spain, his father Louis XIII and her mother Elisabeth of France were brother and sister, as well as his mother Anna of Austria was the sister of Philip IV of Spain.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Yes, inbreeding can produce infertility.

In my own family genealogy (lots of records for my maternal grandmother), the number of cousin marriages (usually not first cousin, but plenty of second and third cousin marriages) is astonishing. Most of that ended after 1500 or so, but still. When people say something like "each person has 1 million relatives living at 600 years ago," they're forgetting that when cousins marry, lines merge and one has far fewer ancestors. This happened so many times in my own line, I'm glad that once we arrived in America we branched out a little (although still surprised to see, for example, that my 5X great grandpa, George, married a woman who shared a common ancestor with his mother some 6 generations earlier). I know 7th or 8th cousins are distant, but still, as i said, I was brought up that if you knew you were related, it was not proper.

In my family's case, it was largely a function of the fairly small number of people who came over to Jamestown in the first 100 years, everyone tried to outmarry, but soon, everyone was related.

 

[norenxaq]

also, sibling marriages were common among inca kings

 

[Kit]

Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth of Austria were 1st cousins. Their mothers were sisters. A third sister married FJs grandfather which made her his 4th wife so she was actually the stepmother-in-law of her own sister. And Elisabeth's parents were 2nd cousins as far as I recall. And if you look back in the Habsburg history there are many marriages between the Habsburgs and the Wittelsbachs who were already closely related.

 

[PrincessKaimi]

Oh, ugh, ugh. So, the third sister was the sister of Franz Joseph's mother? Did she marry the paternal grandpa (I hope I hope, has to be).

 

[Kit]

yes the third sister was Princess Karoline Auguste of Bavaria who married Emperor Franz I. in 1808 and thus became Empress Karoline of Austria. Her sister Princess Sophie of Bavaria married Archduke Franz Carl in 1824. Their eldest son Franz Joseph was born in 1830. So yes she married the paternal grand-father ;-). And Princess Ludovika Wilhelmine of Bavaria married her 2nd cousin Duke Max Joseph in Bavaria in 1828. Their daughter and the later Empress Elisabeth was born in 1837. Empress FJ and Empress Elisabeth who were as already mentioned 1st cousins married in 1854.
What's more Archduke Franz Carl's elder brother and FJ's uncle Emperor Ferdinand was married to his 2nd cousin Princess Maria Anna of Savoy.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Can Queen Victoria's grandchildren's and great grandchildren's marriages between cousins be considered incestuous? Like princess Victoria melita's marriages ....

 

[fearghas]

Can Queen Victoria's grandchildren's and great grandchildren's marriages between cousins be considered incestuous? Like princess Victoria melita's marriages ....

I think in this discussion we are talking about closer marriages, eg some of the Wurttemberg marriages between uncle and niece.

 

[Emperor Roku XIV]

I have read of brother marrying sister before.

 

[Meraude]

Many of the marriages among Pharaohs in ancient Egypt were between brothers and sisters, sometimes between fathers and daughters, or mothers and sons. For example the famous Cleopatra (VII) was married to two of her younger brothers.

 

[theresa_225]

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanta_Benedita_of_Portugal

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

The interesting thing about Egypt was that even when foreign dynasties(like Cleopatra's Greek family) took over they chose to continue the tradition. Once Egypt was under Roman rule it did not continue.


I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).


Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

 

[Meraude]

The interesting thing about Egypt was that even when foreign dynasties(like Cleopatra's Greek family) took over they chose to continue the tradition. Once Egypt was under Roman rule it did not continue.

I think part of the explanation is that both Egyptian and Greek mythology is full of gods and goddesses in incestrous marriages, and Alexander the Great had declared himself to be a god in Egypt, so when one of his generals took over as pharaoh it was quite "natural" to continue the tradition of pharaoh as a god, and sister-brother marriages.

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

 

[Mariel]

I had a 19th century copy of the Book of Common Prayer from England, and it listed forbidden closenesses of relatives. This book was destroyed in a fire in 2000 or I could look it up, but the degrees not permitted extended much farther than first cousin at that time. I don't know how the royals got around this book supported by their own Church.

At least two of Victoria's descendants had Porphyria, as I"ve described in another thread--both Vicki, her daughter, and Vicki's daughter Charlotte. Because of the closeness in relationship between Victoria and Albert, it is not certain from which side (or both?) came this gene, but having it from both sides will not make it "worse", just more "likely". If one parent has it, 50% statistically get it. If two parents have it, statistically 75% get it. Some children would not count in the ratio because they would be miscarried or die at birth.
Some people have Porphyria but live lives which minimize its effects, or they avoid triggers. For instance, Victoria was overweight. People with Porphyria can tend to avoid attacks by consuming lots of sugar and carbohydrates whenever they feel a sick spell coming on.
The Spanish royals who inbred so badly may have had Porphyria but they were so sick that they probably had other bad genes as well. The lives they led, waited on hand and foot, and given special food at their whim, could have contributed to their survival. Bad genes does not always stop the production of many children.
Queen Anne Stuart had 17 children with a close relative as the father, and none survived to reproduce. Question is, did the fact that both parents had a hidden genetic tendency cause this, or not? What was the hidden gene? Some say Porphyria, others disagree, but her ancestors had lots of porphyria, including George III of the Hanovers and James 1 and VI of England and Scotland.

 

[Mariel]

PS--correction to previous post

I said in previous post today (June 16, 2012) that Queen Anne Stewart was descended from Hanovers. No, I think that is not correct. Hanovers followed her. But the Hanover family who followed her also had probable Porphyria, i.e.for example George III, his grandaughter Victoria, etc. So easy to mix these up! Her ancestor James Stewart I/VI definitely was dx'd (according to tools available then) as having Porphyria. His urine turned red without it being blood, which is one sign of Porphyria and a small percentage of other diseases.
Not all people have the red blood who have Porphyria.

 

[purple_Lulu]

I had a 19th century copy of the Book of Common Prayer from England, and it listed forbidden closenesses of relatives. This book was destroyed in a fire in 2000 or I could look it up, but the degrees not permitted extended much farther than first cousin at that time. I don't know how the royals got around this book supported by their own Church.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1662/Kindred1949.htm

You'll be referring to the Table of Kindred and Affinity in the Book of Common Prayer of 1662. Uncle/niece marriages are off but first cousin marriages are permissible.

 

[Meraude]

I said in previous post today (June 16, 2012) that Queen Anne Stewart was descended from Hanovers. No, I think that is not correct. Hanovers followed her. But the Hanover family who followed her also had probable Porphyria, i.e.for example George III, his grandaughter Victoria, etc. So easy to mix these up! Her ancestor James Stewart I/VI definitely was dx'd (according to tools available then) as having Porphyria.

The Stuarts and the Hanovers are related:

King James I/VI Stuart -> King Charles I -> King James II/VII -> Queen Anne Stuart
King James I/VI Stuart -> Elizabeth Stuart -> Sophia of Hanover -> King George I

Queen Anne Stuart and king George I were second cousins, the Hanovers were matrilinear descendants of the Stuart family.

 

[Kataryn]

The Royal Stuarts of Scotland had a long tradition of having porphyria.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

When was the last "incestuous" royal marriage? The last one I can recall is Victoria and Albert.

 

[NGalitzine]

When was the last "incestuous" royal marriage? The last one I can recall is Victoria and Albert.

Why incestuous? Marriages between first cousins was and still is perfectly legal in many jurisdictions so would not be considered incestuous. Certainly in their case neither the state nor the Church had a problem with their relationship as it was a legally valid marriage under UK law. Quite a few of their grandchildren also married 1st cousins.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Exactly - first cousin marriages are still legal in the eyes of church and state.

 

[Roslyn]

Though it's clear for Australians and most other countries which have one law on the legality of first cousin marriages for the whole country, for people in the USA it is a little confusing since it depends on what state they live in. In some states it's permitted; in some it's not permitted but not a criminal offence to cohabit or have sexual relations with a first cousin; in some states it's not only not permitted but it is a criminal offence to cohabit or have sexual relations with a first cousin; in some states it's permitted if one or both of the parties is unable to reproduce; in some states where it is not permitted, out of state first cousin marriages are not void but in some states they are. Curiously, in Texas it's not permitted and it is a criminal offence to cohabit with a first cousin or have sexual relations with them, but the marriage is not void, and in Wisconsin first cousin marriage is permitted but the marriage is void and it's not known whether or not it is legal for the couple to cohabit or have sexual relations!?! Cousin marriage law in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[norenxaq]

mother son pharaonic marriage? I am unaware of any.

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

 

[Lee-Z]

Though it's clear for Australians and most other countries which have one law on the legality of first cousin marriages for the whole country, for people in the USA it is a little confusing since it depends on what state they live in.

You are right, but what people on these forums tend to forget is that they should not think of their own laws when discussing situations in other times and countries....

 

[MAfan]

When was the last "incestuous" royal marriage? The last one I can recall is Victoria and Albert.

I wouldn't call Victoria and Albert's marriage incestuous; btw, their wasn't certainly the last first cousins marriage, just think that Victoria arranged several marriages among her grandchildren (i.e. Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse to Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh; Prince Heinrich of Prussia to Princess Irene of Hesse; she also tried to match her grandson Prince Albert Victor, the Duke of Clarence, first to Princess Alix of Hesse and then to Princess Margaretha of Prussia).

 

[Biri]

Exactly - first cousin marriages are still legal in the eyes of church and state.

In Roman Catholic Church a dispensation is required to contract a marriage with the first cousin; Mario Vargas Llosa & Patricia Llosa Urquidi needed it.

 

[scooter]

Exactly - first cousin marriages are still legal in the eyes of church and state.

Indeed the Spanish and Portuguese RF often married nieces to uncles etc. certain physical features such as the Hapsburg lip became much more pronounced due to such inbreeding.

 

[vkrish]

Since we are talking of marriage among first cousins, I will share the Indian culture regarding first cousins..

The first cousins are of two types (My own terminology)..

1. Straight Cousins: They are father's brother's children, or mother's sister's children..These straight cousins are equal to one's own brothers and sisters. In fact no Indian language has any specific term for these type of cousins..They are simply referred to and addressed as brother and sister..
So marriage among staight cousins is out of question..
Example of straight cousins:
William/Harry/Beatrice/Eugenie/James/
Queen/DoK/DoG/Prince Michael..
Charles/Anne/Andrew/Edward/Sarah/Linley..
In these three sets, each person is a brother/sister of all other members of that set..

2. Cross Cousins: They are mother's brother's children, or father's sister's children..They ARE NOT equal to brother/sister, and there are specific terms for them.. Marriage may always be considered among these cousins..
Examples of cross cousins:
Peter and Zara are cross cousins of Will, Harry, Bea, Eu,Louise,James.
Prince Felipe is a cross cousin of Prince Pavlos
Earl Spencer's daughters are cross cousins of William and Harry..

The marriages among cross cousins were quite frequent till a few generations back.
A cross cousin of same age group was a potential alliance right from birth. In fact there were anxious grandparents waiting for their cross-grandchildren to grow up soon, so that they could marry them off..
But nowadays, no one's bothering that.. Cross-cousins are also being seen as "just cousins" and nothing more..

I wonder if this made any sense..