Edinburgh and Wessex Titles


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I think the papers were making too big a deal about the delay in the announcement and it was always in the cards for Charles to announce it on Edward’s birthday.

Buckingham Palace stated as late as November 2022 that the King hadn't made his final decision about whether to keep the agreement he made in 1999:


From July 2021:

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."

https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/

From November 2022:

A Buckingham Palace spokesman said no decision had been made.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...g-duchess-edinburgh-title-princess-charlotte/
 
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I think Sophie will just be the Dowager Duchess of Edinburgh if DoE is regranted to someone else. The case of Princess Marine is a different story and I don't think Sophie will request or William/George will grant her the permission.

It would not be necessary for Sophie to change her title until there was a new The Duchess of Edinburgh. If, for example, the dukedom was regranted to an unmarried Louis, Sophie would remain known as The Duchess of Edinburgh. Only in the event that Louis took a wife who became The Duchess of Edinburgh would Sophie need to change for the sake of avoiding confusion.

The use of "Dowager" was already viewed as old-fashioned in Marina and Alice's time, which is probably why they chose an alternative.

Dowager Peeresses

According to Debrett's Correct Form:

"Officially the widow of a peer is known as the Dowager Countess (or whatever) of X, unless there is already a dowager peeress of the family still living. In the latter event, the widow of the senior peer of the family retains the title of Dowager for life, and the widow of the junior peer in that family is known by her Christian name, e.g., Mary, Countess of X, until she becomes the senior widow. . . . When the present peer is unmarried, by custom the widow of the late peer continues to call herself as she did when her husband was living, i.e., without the prefix of (a) dowager, or (b) her Christian name. Should the present peer marry, it is usual for the widowed peeress to announce the style by which she wishes to be know in future."(113) This last bit is twentieth century, and Black's agrees: most widows don't use "dowager" at all anymore, and simply use the Mary, Countess of X option, announcing in the press the style they will be using.

"Black's" is listed as the 1932 edition of Titles and Forms of Address: A Guide to Their Correct Use, published by A. & C. Black Ltd., so most duchesses dowager apparently used the style Mary, Duchess of X, by 1932.


Note that there was no formal announcement that the monarch had given permission for Marina's or Alice's new styling. See these posts for details on how their new titles were announced:

Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent:
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...sh-styles-and-titles-258-250.html#post2324071

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester:
https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...ish-styles-and-titles-258-92.html#post1517035


For the time being, the only precedents are Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent and Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester. If that remains the case I would expect Sophie to follow the precedent.
 
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Such happy news, they deserve it!
 
I'm very happy His Majesty did exactly as I specified. ;)

Edward is indeed fortunate his birthday comes after the end of "full mourning", as that seems to be another reason being thrown around for the granting today?
 
So the line of succession was updated promptly on the Royal website but there still (last I checked) has been no change to the list of The Royal Family regarding the Sussex children or the Edinburgh title changes. [.....]. ��
 
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All I have to say is that I'm very very happy for Edward, Sophie, and the late Duke himself! This couple is unbelievably hard working, drama-free and have represented the family so well in the mainland.
 
Absolutely delighted for them,so well deserved!!
 
This is such great news. I’m really happy for Edward and Sophie.



I think the papers were making too big a deal about the delay in the announcement and it was always in the cards for Charles to announce it on Edward’s birthday.



I tend agree. Announcing it on his birthday just seems like a nice thing to do. At the same time- I think if Edward’s birthday were after the coronation, he probably would have just picked a pre coronation day to make the announcement. I think he would have wanted Edward to have it for such a big occasion.

I do wonder if Charles pondered a bit on whether to allow it to be passed down versus lifetime though. I do get him wanting to limit passing down titles. And/Or maybe not wanting a prestigious title like Edinburgh to eventually wind up with someone so far removed from the crown.

Just glad he gave Edward the title. I thought surely he’d keep his public promise. And he has.
 
I do wonder if Charles pondered a bit on whether to allow it to be passed down versus lifetime though.

According to his official spokespersons, he was pondering as recently a few months ago about whether to grant the dukedom as he promised.

From July 2021:

A spokesperson for Charles tells PEOPLE, "All stories of this nature are speculation and no final decisions have been taken. It would be inappropriate and disrespectful to the Queen to comment on matters of accession and we will be maintaining our long-standing policy of not doing so."

https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title/

From November 2022:

A Buckingham Palace spokesman said no decision had been made.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...g-duchess-edinburgh-title-princess-charlotte/
 
Really happy for Edward and Sophie, it is a recognition for their hard work without major fuss.
Now everyone has their new title.
 
Edinburgh / Wessex Titles

According to his official spokespersons, he was pondering as recently a few months ago about whether to grant the dukedom as he promised.



I get what you’re saying- but it also sounds like deflection to me. Maybe I’m wrong. The spokesperson does say no final decisions had been made, but maybe he was trying to avoid all topics of titles. (IE the Sussex grandchildren too) Aside from the Wales one.

I’d like to think he always intended to give it to Edward somehow. But perhaps not. Anyhow- he did keep his promise in the end, which is good.

ETA- it really is nice to see all the title changes for Edward and Sophie here on the forum. They deserve this. I realize titles are not merit based or rewards, but they deserve it just the same. And deserve to be treated as other sons of monarchs have.
 
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This new title announcement made me so happy i had to post here!

For a while I was worried King Charles would have a change of heart about this, but I'm glad they somewhat found a middle ground for it.

It still confuses me why not make it hereditary, but I guess a life dukedom is better than no dukedom?! (But why not give him then a different one then? IMO the problem here is the ~abundance~ of ROYAL titles for non-working members not the abundance of titles in general)

Either way, happy news! Prince Edward and Sophie definitely deserve this recognition for being steady family members for a while now! Glad this matter is settled ��
 
Nothing. Edward will still be THE Earl of Wessex, The Earl of Forfar and The Viscount Severn.

James will use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title but the substantive title will still be Edward's.

We will probably only see them use Edinburgh from now on that as Forfar was the title they used in Scotland but they now have a more senior Scottish title to use.

Iluvbertie, This is a good explanation of the titles.
We now know that The Earl of Forfar title does not go to James but remains as a title with Prince Edward.
 
I'm one of those people who thinks that 'titles don't define a person', but i must say i'm really happy that the Duke of Edinburgh title now has found a worthy new person :flowers:
 
This new title announcement made me so happy i had to post here!

For a while I was worried King Charles would have a change of heart about this, but I'm glad they somewhat found a middle ground for it.

It still confuses me why not make it hereditary, but I guess a life dukedom is better than no dukedom?! (But why not give him then a different one then? IMO the problem here is the ~abundance~ of ROYAL titles for non-working members not the abundance of titles in general)

Either way, happy news! Prince Edward and Sophie definitely deserve this recognition for being steady family members for a while now! Glad this matter is settled ��
He was to be given the title D of Edinburgh so that Philip's title woudl go to one of his sons.
 
Absolutely delighted for them, Good that the wish of Her Majesty make true
Really well deserved for the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburg :flowers:
 
At first, I was disappointed that the Duke of Edinburgh title wouldn't be hereditary, but thinking about it more, it's probably for the best:
- Given the BRF's long lifespans, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh will probably hold the title for 35-40 years
- James, Earl of Wessex, by then in his 50s and definitely a private citizen far down the line of succession, may not want his private life disrupted by suddenly become a royal duke in his middle age (unlike his father, he's not expect to work for the BRF in the future)
- On a similar note, the Dukedom of Edinburgh may not even go to any of HRH The Prince of Wales's children. If my timeline is accurate, they would be 40-50 by the time the title is available. Unless the trend in the future is to marry much later in life (highly possible), then all of them (except perhaps HRH Prince Louis of Wales) will probably be married and already have their own dukedoms
- On a related note, I wonder will the future Duke of Edinburgh have to get the blessings of the current ones children before they receive it (I believe I read in the titles' forum that HRH The Duke of York had to ask Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon for her blessing because she used to have the "of York" designation).
 
I'm sorry I'm a bit confused why people think that James holding the DoE title has anything to do with slimming down the monarchy or would create a change in his status. If he were to become the Duke, that doesn't mean he'd start using HRH Prince, it would just be another title after the two he has used previously. Because let's not forget, James will be the actual Earl of Wessex eventually, which is obviously a title. There is no difference between the duties of an earl and that of a duke, because there aren't any formal ones these days.
 
Another reason to consider for making this a lifetime rather than hereditary appointment is the connection of the DOE with the DOE awards.

They may want to associate the award with senior royalty like Edward but in a generation or two they would have some minor royal giving our awards rather than a more senior royal.
 
Another reason to consider for making this a lifetime rather than hereditary appointment is the connection of the DOE with the DOE awards.



They may want to associate the award with senior royalty like Edward but in a generation or two they would have some minor royal giving our awards rather than a more senior royal.



Good point. That could be a factor.
 
Is James the only peerage heir to be known by the actual title he's going to inherit?
 
Can James pass down his Earl title to his children?

I'm wondering about this. Are both the Earldoms of Wessex and Fofar only subsidiary titles of the Dukedom of Edinburgh or can James inherit them in due course in his own right?


Beth
 
I'm wondering about this. Are both the Earldoms of Wessex and Fofar only subsidiary titles of the Dukedom of Edinburgh or can James inherit them in due course in his own right?


Beth

Pretty sure the earldoms are hereditary in the male line. So yes it does sound rather odd that the Earl of Wessex will eventually become T(?)he Earl of Wessex!
 
I'm wondering about this. Are both the Earldoms of Wessex and Fofar only subsidiary titles of the Dukedom of Edinburgh or can James inherit them in due course in his own right?

Beth

Wessex and Forfar and the Severn viscountcy are normal peerages that James and his heirs male can inherit.
 
I'm wondering about this. Are both the Earldoms of Wessex and Fofar only subsidiary titles of the Dukedom of Edinburgh or can James inherit them in due course in his own right?


Beth

They are separate titles created by Letters Patent with a remainder to "heirs male of the body lawfully begotten and to be begotten", which means James will inherit the 3 titles of Earl of Wessex, Earl of Forfar, and Viscount Severn if he outlives his father.
 
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For anyone who did not keep pace with all the previous developments, Camilla Tominey of The Telegraph includes a recap in her report on the dukedom creation (which is far better than most of the others, including the BBC story, which last I checked had major factual errors or omissions).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-f...ward-new-duke-edinburgh-title-palace-process/

[...]

As the soon-to-be newlyweds recalled later, they were completely taken aback when he [Prince Philip] suggested to his youngest son that it was his express wish he should become the next Duke of Edinburgh.

[...]

As Buckingham Palace announced in a statement on their wedding day on June 19 1999: “The Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales have also agreed that the Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title held now by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.”

[...]

As the then Earl of Wessex told me in an interview for The Telegraph magazine in June 2021, two months after his father died: “It was a lovely idea; a lovely thought.”

[...]

A month after our interview at the Wessexes’ Berkshire home, Bagshot Park, reports emerged that Charles, the Prince of Wales at the time, was not set on the idea of granting his father’s wishes.

A source was quoted in The Sunday Times saying: “The Prince is the Duke of Edinburgh as it stands, and it is up to him what happens to the title. It will not go to Edward.”

Another source close to the Prince added: “Edinburgh won’t go to them [the Wessexes] as far as the Prince is concerned.”

Edward never thought inheriting the title was a done deal, telling the BBC in an interview to mark what would have been Philip’s 100th birthday in June 2021 that the idea was “a pipe dream of my father’s”.

He added: “Of course, it will depend on whether or not the Prince of Wales, when he becomes king, whether he’ll do that, so we’ll wait and see. So yes, it will be quite a challenge taking that on.”

But Charles’s sudden change of heart did raise eyebrows among royal watchers, not least after the Wessexes had taken on a more prominent role within the Royal family since Prince Andrew stepped back from public life in 2019, and the Duke and Duchess of Sussex quit royal duties in 2020.

Edward had taken on several of his father’s patronages and, along with his wife, has carried on the mantle of the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award Scheme, founded by Philip in 1956 to help young people develop life and work skills.

[...]

Nevertheless, Clarence House did not push back on the suggestion that Charles was in two minds, with a spokesman telling reporters: “No final decisions have been made.”

[...]

Last November, it then emerged that the palace powers-that-be were considering saving the title on Princess Charlotte “to honour the line of succession”.

As a source told The Mail on Sunday: “Charlotte’s position is historically significant because she is the first female member of the Royal family whose place in the line of succession will not be surpassed by her younger brother.

“So it is constitutionally significant that Charlotte should be given such a corresponding title, because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that she will accede the throne if, for example, Prince George does not have children.”

[...]
 
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Posts about the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh visiting Edinburgh have been moved to their new Current Events thread, which you can find here.
 
This news has made my day! I am so thrilled for the new Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.

I think making it for Edward's lifetime may be the start of a new precedent for titles for younger sons and I think I agree with this as this will keep royal dukedoms within the immediate royal family.

I agree.

I'm especially happy for HRH The Duchess of Edinburgh. The last one who actually used the title was HLM The Queen herself, and since it was rumored that the current duchess was her favorite daughter-in-law, that's a nice connection between the two of them.

An excellent observation.

All I have to say is that I'm very very happy for Edward, Sophie, and the late Duke himself! This couple is unbelievably hard working, drama-free and have represented the family so well in the mainland.

So true.
 
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