Duchy of Cornwall

[auntie]

I was wondering about the Duchy of Cornwall, and have a few questions:

Since when in history did the Prince of Wales become the Duke of Corwall?

If the heir to the throne is a lady does she become the Duchess of Cornwall (in the case of QElizabeth?)

If the king has no issue, does the second in line become the Duke of Corwall, if not where does the money from the duchy go to?

etc.

Thanks !

 

[Mapple]

The first Duke of Cornwall was Edward of Woodstock, the Black Prince. As a matter of fact, he became first the Duke of Cornwall (1337) and then the Prince of Wales (1343).

Only the Sovereign's eldest son can hold the dukedom, according to the charter of 1421. If the eldest son of the Sovereign dies, his eldest son does not inherit the dukedom. However, if the eldest son should die without children, then his next brother obtains the dukedom.

Underlying these rules is the principle that only a son of the Sovereign—never a daughter of a grandson—may be Duke of Cornwall. Thus, it is possible for an individual to be Prince of Wales without being Duke of Cornwall.

I do not know for sure who is entitled to the income from the Duchy when there is no Duke of Cornwall, but I think it is the British Sovereign, the dukedom having been reverted to the Crown.

 

[Elspeth]

I forget the thread now, but we were talking about the situation with Princess Elizabeth and where her income came from since she wasn't able to use the Duchy money after she turned 18 and before she became Queen. I'm pretty sure that the money reverted to the government or something in the absence of a Duke, so the money Princess Elizabeth received from the Civil List was wasn't given to her while her father was stashing the Duchy funds too.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I was wondering about the Duchy of Cornwall, and have a few questions:

Since when in history did the Prince of Wales become the Duke of Corwall?

The Prince of Wales doesn't become the Duke of Cornwall.

The Duke of Cornwall title is an inherited title while the Prince of Wales title is a created one.

In 1952 when George VI died Charles instantly became Duke of Cornwall but he wasn't created Prince of Wales until 1958 (his investiture was in 1969).

In 1841 Prince Albert Edward was born Duke of Cornwall but created Prince of Wales shortly afterwards.

In 1901 George V was Duke of Cornwall and York from the death of Queen Victoria in January until the November of that year when his father created him Prince of Wales (he opened the first ever Australian parliament in 1901 with the titles of Duke of Cornwall and York).

George V didn't wait very long after his accession to create his son Prince of Wales.

The instant Charles becomes king William will be Duke of Cornwall and it will be up to Charles as to when, or even if, he creates William Prince of Wales. He could do it at any time after his accession. Prince of Wales is not an automatic title unlike Duke of Cornwall.

 

[auntie]

Thanks everyone, I's be happy to hear more if anyone has info.

 

[Warren]

Dukeless Duchy

I forget the thread now, but we were talking about the situation with Princess Elizabeth and where her income came from since she wasn't able to use the Duchy money after she turned 18 and before she became Queen. I'm pretty sure that the money reverted to the government or something in the absence of a Duke, so the money Princess Elizabeth received from the Civil List was wasn't given to her while her father was stashing the Duchy funds too.

I remember reading this at the time. My thought was that if the income from the Duchy reverted to the government, how could the trustees of the Duchy carry out their functions without an income? ie, reinvesting, rebuilding, buying land, maintenance, upkeep etc. Or does the Duchy in the circumstance where there is no Duke of Cornwall just spend/reinvest all cash flow so there is no profit to be remitted to the government? Or even better, stash the cash in 'contingency reserves' accounts?

 

[Elspeth]

Well, maybe what happens is that the part of the income that would go to support the Duke was returned to the government or something.

Otherwise you'd have had a situation where, after turning 18, Princess Elizabeth would have had to be given money from the Civil List while the Duchy was hanging onto all the Duchy proceeds, during a period when the country was desperately short of money. That would have been an unacceptably selfish thing for the King to do, and even with the greater deference shown to the monarchy back then, it's unlikely that it would have gone unnoticed. For all anyone knew back in 1944, Princess Elizabeth was going to stay a princess for the next quarter century.

 

[branchg]

The Government agreed part of the duchy's income could be used to support Princess Elizabeth's Household, even though she could succeed to the Dukedom of Cornwall. It is specifically reserved for the eldest son of the Sovereign who is also the heir to the throne.

 

[branchg]

The heir is always created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, so it is possible, for instance, that Charles could predecease his mother and the Queen would then create William the new Prince of Wales. But the Dukedom of Cornwall would revert back to the Crown since William is not the eldest son of the Sovereign and Andrew would not be the heir to the throne as the new eldest son.

 

[Elspeth]

I didn't realise a grandson could be created Prince of Wales. I know George V was created Prince of Wales after his father became King, but by then he was the eldest son, his elder brother having died years earlier.

Was George III created Prince of Wales before he became King? He was the last monarch to succeed a grandparent, if memory serves.

 

[branchg]

Yes, George III was created Prince of Wales when his father, Frederick, Prince of Wales, died in March 1751. At the age of 12, George automatically became the Duke of Edinburgh and was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather, George II, in April 1751.

 

[Skydragon]

I remember reading this at the time. My thought was that if the income from the Duchy reverted to the government, how could the trustees of the Duchy carry out their functions without an income? ie, reinvesting, rebuilding, buying land, maintenance, upkeep etc. Or does the Duchy in the circumstance where there is no Duke of Cornwall just spend/reinvest all cash flow so there is no profit to be remitted to the government? Or even better, stash the cash in 'contingency reserves' accounts?

I think that the profit, after reinvesting, repairs etc is taken by the government. The company returns/company taxes/corporation tax scrutiny would ensure that the profits were not 'diverted'!

 

[AgnesK]

Prince's Duchy of Cornwall in National Geographic:

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0605/feature3/gallery1.html

 

[Royal Fan]

Thats an awsome article

 

[Emily]

That is a very impressive article. I had read that Poundbury initially attracted enormous criticism and the Prince's folly. But within in the past 12 months I've seen more and more that praises it's successes. It is good to see the Prince getting the praise he deserves for some of his efforts such as Poundbury, the environment, his organic farming. I think he is basically a very good man....peevish though he may be about some things.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Think hes a good man a decent enough Prince of Wales and one day will make a fine King .

 

[Avalon]

Thanks for the article, AgnesK.
I am really glad the Prince of Wales gets the praise he deserves.
I love the words 'the Prince, who cares', That's what I think of His Royal Highness, that he cares. And that's something to come across very rarely.

 

[Furienna]

So you have to be a duke of Cornwall before you become a prince of Wales?

 

[Iluvbertie]

So you have to be a duke of Cornwall before you become a prince of Wales?

Actually no!

If you are the eldest son of the monarch then you will automatically be Duke of Cornwall - Charles became DOC the instant his mother became Queen, Edward VII was born DOC etc.

However Charles had to wait until 1958 to be created POW (Edward VII had to wait about a month).

However George III was NEVER DOC as he was never the eldest son of the monarch BUT was the heir to the throne so George II gave him the title POW.

DOC can only go to the eldest son of the monarch - William can only be DOC if Charles is king but the Queen could create William POW if Charles dies in her reign.

 

[auntie]

If the Duke of Cornwall dies, and has no issue, does his younger brother become the Duke of corwall. or is it reverted to the crown untill the next oppurtunity arises? What if the next in line is a nephew/cousin to the king?!
Did George V become Duke of cornwall when his father became the king? Even though he wasn't the oldest son?

 

[Mapple]

If the Duke of Cornwall dies, and has no issue, does his younger brother become the Duke of corwall. or is it reverted to the crown untill the next oppurtunity arises?

If the Duke of Cornwall has no surviving legitimate issue, either male or female, the next eldest brother becomes the Duke of Cornwall.

What if the next in line is a nephew/cousin to the king?!

The ducal title reverts to the Crown.

Did George V become Duke of cornwall when his father became the king? Even though he wasn't the oldest son?

Yes, immediately upon King Edward VII's accession he became the Duke of Cornwall (actually George was holding two dukedoms, that of Cornwall and York, then). He was invested as the Prince of Wales later in the year.

 

[auntie]

Thanks Mapple!

 

[Iluvbertie]

If the Duke of Cornwall has no surviving legitimate issue, either male or female, the next eldest brother becomes the Duke of Cornwall.

The ducal title reverts to the Crown.

Yes, immediately upon King Edward VII's accession he became the Duke of Cornwall (actually George was holding two dukedoms, that of Cornwall and York, then). He was invested as the Prince of Wales later in the year.

Actually George V was never invested as POW in the way that either
Edward VIII or Prince Charles was. He was created POW on his father's birthday in 1901. Invested, to me, means some form of official ceremony, whereas created is simply the issuing of the Letters Patent, which is what happened in 1901. His father never had an investiture either.

He had come to Australia that year to open our first ever federal parliament as the Duke of Cornwall and York (up until the Queen's death it was expected that he would by only Duke of York when he opened the parliament but he had both titles by then).

 

[Mapple]

Actually George V was never invested as POW in the way that either
Edward VIII or Prince Charles was. He was created POW on his father's birthday in 1901. Invested, to me, means some form of official ceremony, whereas created is simply the issuing of the Letters Patent, which is what happened in 1901. His father never had an investiture either.

He had come to Australia that year to open our first ever federal parliament as the Duke of Cornwall and York (up until the Queen's death it was expected that he would by only Duke of York when he opened the parliament but he had both titles by then).

Quite so, I doubt that there was some kind of formal investiture for future George V, as this kind of formal ceremony is not necessary when creating someone PoW. Was there George's investiture in the Parliament at least then? I doubt it.

 

[Iluvbertie]

My understanding is that there was no ceremony of any kind for either George V or Edward VII.

They were just created POW and that was it.

Edward VIII and Charles both had elaborate ceremonies in Carnarvon sometime after their actual creation as POW - Edward within a short time while for Charles 11 years later.

All four did have a formal taking of a seat in the House of Lords but that was due to the title of Duke of Cornwall (York for George V) not the title POW, and happened for every nobleman on gaining his title through creation or inheritance - royal duke or not. Only the present Earl of Wessex (as far as royals goes) hasn't done so due to the changes in the make-up of the House of Lords in 1999.

 

[milla Ca]

The Duchy of Cornwall published a sustainability strategy for a green development in Newquay, Cornwall

The Prince of Wales - The Duchy of Cornwall publishes a sustainability strategy for a green development in Newquay, Cornwall

 

[Avalon]

The Duchy of Cornwall publishes a sustainability strategy for a green development in Newquay, Cornwall

A site to the east of Newquay in Cornwall, known as the Newquay Growth Area, has been earmarked for development by the local authority as a way of meeting the future local business, housing, educational and health needs in a sustainable way.
The Duchy of Cornwall is the majority landowner of the site and is working with the local authority, to create a new urban extension of Newquay that will champion sustainable development environmentally, socially and economically.

 

[Elizabeth Harris]

Duchy land

I have a question that I hope someone will be able to answer.

When Prince Charles decided to build homes and stores on his Duchy land, do people buy the house but not the land? Can people sell their homes to anyone or do they need approval from the Duchy?

 

[Elspeth]

You can also have a look at the Duchy website:

Duchy of Cornwall - Home Page - The Official Website for the Duchy of Cornwall

Usually, for property owned by something like the Duchy of Cornwall or the Crown Estates, people can buy the property leasehold rather than freehold, which means they're effectively buying a long lease on the property. They can sell the property, but they're selling the long lease, not selling the property outright. I'm not sure how the properties in Poundbury are sold; this article mentions something about both leasehold and freehold property:

CABE - Case Studies

 

[Suonymona]

It reads like one of the USA neighbourhood associations.

You buy the house and land but its in a gated area controlled by a group you pay dues to (usually annually). The group says what outside features you can have (paint, decorations, garage size, fence height...etc) and in selling your house, they have to approve the next owners--who must agree to the rules and fees.

You own something but its like claiming your room and clothes in your parent's house. You can try and do what you want, but someone else has the final word.

Edit: removed some personal information after reconsider.