British Royal Family Genealogy

[Countessmeout]

I do remember seeing a picture of Catherine Carey and thinking she looked an awful lot like Henry VIII ....


LaRae

Catherine was certainly said to resemble Henry as she got older. And was given some deference at court. Unlike her brother, her conception and birth do match up with dates Mary was involved with Henry.

https://tudorblogger.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/catherine-carey-by-steven-van-der-meulen.jpg

 

[Ish]

True, but by that count Prince Harry is believed by some to look like James Hewitt. Doesn’t make Hewitt his biological father.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

I have questions about the BRF's descent from three distinct lanes: the Prophet Muhammad, the Tang Emperors of China, and Genghis Khan. When it comes to their descent from M, I know there have to be many lines of descent left up for debate.
Has any of this been proven?
I don't remember where I heard this, but someone said they're related to his grandson, Kublai Khan.
Is this true?

 

[Marc23]

I have questions about the BRF's descent from three distinct lanes: the Prophet Muhammad, the Tang Emperors of China, and Genghis Khan. When it comes to their descent from M, I know there have to be many lines of descent left up for debate.
Has any of this been proven?
I don't remember where I heard this, but someone said they're related to his grandson, Kublai Khan.
Is this true?

This is the line from Chinese Emperors:

Emperor Su Tsung (Tang)
Ning-Kuo (daughter) m. Moyenhur (Uighur)
Bayanue (daughter) m. Surkhab II (Tabaristan)
Sharwin I
Karim
Shahriyar I
Qarin
Abul Melik
Surkhab
Abul-Hamza
Michke m. Katchik-Gagik (Vaspurakin)
Abu Sahl Hamazasp III
Derenik
Katchik I
Hasan
Abul Gharib
daughter m. Auschin I (Lampron)
Hetum II
Alix m. Balian d'Ibelin

Guy d'Ibelin

Alix d'Ibelin m. Hugh de Lusignan
Jacques I 

James I de Lusignan m. Charlotte Bourbon

Anne de Lusignan m. Louis (Savoy)

Margaret m. Peter (Luxemburg) 1390-1433

Louis

Peter

Marie m. Francis Bourbon

Antoinette m. Claude, Duke of Guise

Mary m. James V of Scotland

James VI

Elizabeth m. Frederick V of Bavaria

Sophia m. Ernst Augustus, Elector of Hanover

George I

George II

Frederick

George III

Edward

Victoria

Edward VII

George V

George VI

Elizabeth II

 

[Gawin]

It should be noted that this line of descent is unproven. See the discussion at soc.genealogy.medieval:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/NP4V2s1fHec/ZE9fujQiJjIJ

It has been claimed that Queen Mary (wife of George V) was a descendant of Genghis Khan through her Hungarian grandmother but that claim hasn't been proven either. Again, see the discussion at soc.genealogy.medieval:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/R_zF5JQkuAA/3A30V2BpEncJ

Ditto for a descent from the prophet Muhammed. Lots of speculation and proposed lines but no proof.

 

[norenxaq]

as the original poster of the china link, I since discovered that a correction needs to be made. namely that Abul Melik was Qarim's name after he converted to islam

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Does the royal family have any Canadian, Monegasque or islander (Bermuda, Jamaica, St. Kitts, etc.) ancestors?

 

[Marc23]

Does the royal family have any Canadian, Monegasque or islander (Bermuda, Jamaica, St. Kitts, etc.) ancestors?

Well, what members? Do you mean Queen Elizabeth II, Duke of Cambrige, Duchess of Sussex? There are many members of the royal family, do you mean born members or members who entered the royal family through marriage?

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Well, what members? Do you mean Queen Elizabeth II, Duke of Cambrige, Duchess of Sussex? There are many members of the royal family, do you mean born members or members who entered the royal family through marriage?

It could be any of those three.
I’d even say Princess Di—since she is 1/8 American.
I almost said Sarah, Duchess of York and Camilla too, but I know for a fact that both of them have a Canadian ancestry; so, I excluded them in my questions.

 

[Marc23]

It could be any of those three.
I’d even say Princess Di—since she is 1/8 American.
I almost said Sarah, Duchess of York and Camilla too, but I know for a fact that both of them have a Canadian ancestry; so, I excluded them in my questions.

I checked Lady Di, but there doesn't seem to be any Canadian ancestry in her nearest ancestry chart.

Still didn't check Sarah and Camilla. If you know some fact, please provide us!

Thnx

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

I checked Lady Di, but there doesn't seem to be any Canadian ancestry in her nearest ancestry chart.

Still didn't check Sarah and Camilla. If you know some fact, please provide us!

Thnx

Both Sarah & Camilla’s Canadian bloodlines are heavily written about under the Ancestry section of their Wikipedia pages.

 

[QueenElizabeth2Fan]

Also, is Diana related to any of the founders of the 13 Colonies (William Penn, George Carteret, etc.)?

 

[Resolute_Desk]

Inspired by reading recently that the society of Royal Bastards offered to include Elizabeth the II, as she apparently descends from an illegitimate child of Henry II, this got me thinking.

Do we know how many different royal lines of descent the Queen has? What I mean is, how many other kings and queens of scotland or england is she descended from, other than the official line of succession?

Obviously far enough back almost any nobility in the tree will eventually be descended from William the Conqueror.

 

[Ish]

Inspired by reading recently that the society of Royal Bastards offered to include Elizabeth the II, as she apparently descends from an illegitimate child of Henry II, this got me thinking.



Do we know how many different royal lines of descent the Queen has? What I mean is, how many other kings and queens of scotland or england is she descended from, other than the official line of succession?



Obviously far enough back almost any nobility in the tree will eventually be descended from William the Conqueror.

We do know this. I don’t have it handy right now, but it has been well documented. I want to say she’s descended from every English monarch who has traceable living descendants, and is only not descended from a handful of British monarchs with living descendants - these would be Charles I, Charles II, James II, and William IV. William and Harry are descended from the Charleses and James through their mother.

The only other British monarchs she is not descended from are William III and Mary II, Anne, and George IV, who do not have confirmed living descendants. Of the English monarchs, she’s not descended from William II, Richard I, Richard II, Edward V, Richard III, Henry VIII, Edward VI, Jane, Mary I, or Elizabeth I, none of whom have living descendants. I’m not sure if she is descended from Stephen or not.

 

[Gawin]

Yes, Queen Elizabeth II is a descendant of King Stephen, through his daughter Mary Countess of Boulogne.

 

[Ish]

Thank you! I couldn’t remember if he fell in the “no known living descendants” category or the “ancestor of QEII” category.

I want to say that Scotland is similar in that all the Scottish monarchs fall into one of those two categories, but I can’t remember precisely who falls who beyond the obvious ones and don’t have my research handy.

 

[Resolute_Desk]

Brilliant!

 

[Gawin]

She's also not descended from Henry V and VI who have no living descendants. And Edward VIII, of course.

 

[Blog Real]

 

[princeofitaly]

Is the British Royal Family related to any of the members of italian Royal Family, the Savoy 's dynasty (especially related to Princess Mafalda of Savoy-Hesse, Queen Marie José of Belgium last Queen of Italy, Queen Elena, etc.)?

 

[Gawin]

Is the British Royal Family related to any of the members of italian Royal Family, the Savoy 's dynasty (especially related to Princess Mafalda of Savoy-Hesse, Queen Marie José of Belgium last Queen of Italy, Queen Elena, etc.)?

Only distantly.

Queen Marie Jose's great-grandfather King Leopold I of the Belgians was Queen Victoria's uncle.

Queen Margherita's great-grandmother Queen Caroline of Bavaria was a sister of Prince Philip's 3x great-grandmother Grand Duchess Wilhelmine of Hesse.

Other connections:

Princess Mafalda's husband Philipp of Hesse was a great-grandson of Queen Victoria. His brother Christoph married Prince Philip's sister Sophia of Greece.

Queen Elena's brother Crown Prince Danilo of Montenegro married Jutta of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, a granddaughter of Queen Mary's beloved aunt Augusta Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

Her niece Helen of Serbia married Prince Ivan of Russia. Ivan's aunt Queen Olga of Greece was Prince Philip's grandmother.

Princess Maria Pia's first husband Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia was the nephew of Marina Duchess of Kent.

The Savoy-Aosta branch has more connections:

Emmanuel Philibert Duke of Aosta married Helene of Orleans who had been courted by Prince Albert Victor Duke of Clarence and Avondale.

Their son Aimone Duke of Aosta married Irene of Greece, a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria and first cousin to Prince Philip.

 

[Prinsara]

Is the British Royal Family related to any of the members of italian Royal Family, the Savoy 's dynasty (especially related to Princess Mafalda of Savoy-Hesse, Queen Marie José of Belgium last Queen of Italy, Queen Elena, etc.)?

Marie-José and the BRF are related though the Coburgs of Germany.

Mafalda, may she rest in peace, was Philip's sister Sophie's sister-in-law, though I'm sure she was more closely related somehow.

 

[LauraS3514]

Every time I see this chart I wonder why the Michael Kents children are listed but not the higher-ranked Gloucesters or even the Duke's.

 

[dancing]

I've searched this thread and can't seem to find what I'm looking for, but apologies if I've missed it. Regarding the 28-year relationship between Prince Edward, Duke of Strathearn (Queen Victoria's father), and his French mistress Madame Julie de Saint-Laurent in Canada, biographer Mollie Gillen reportedly gained access to the Royal Archives before she died in 2009. The RA does not list any children of the union between Edward and Julie, and everything I can find online says this effectively closes the case - that rumours of living descendants from the union are simply fantasy.

My questions are thus:
Would the RA categorically, unquestionably, have recorded these descendants despite the fact that they all would have been older than Victoria?
In theory, would the RA not simply omit information it did not think was of benefit to the royal bloodline?
After all, Victoria's legitimacy has already come into question over the spread of haemophilia among her descendants (I am NOT claiming she isn't Edward's daughter, nor am I claiming the royal line, even if it was illegitimate, should have anyone else on the throne but QEII, only referencing the controversy).
Basically, for the sake of genealogy research, I'm curious, how much can we trust the accuracy of Royal Archive information, if that information might be detrimental to the sanctity of the royal line or Royal Family itself?

If you've researched the claims of illegitimate children born of Prince Edward and Saint-Laurent's union in Canada and have anything else to offer, my curious mind would be grateful for your insight.

 

[Marc23]

Every time I see this chart I wonder why the Michael Kents children are listed but not the higher-ranked Gloucesters or even the Duke's.

Listed higher where exactly?

 

[Marc23]

Is the British Royal Family related to any of the members of italian Royal Family, the Savoy 's dynasty (especially related to Princess Mafalda of Savoy-Hesse, Queen Marie José of Belgium last Queen of Italy, Queen Elena, etc.)?

Well, Princess Michael of Kent and Princess Mafalda of Savoy are 6th cousins once removed. They both descended from Savoy dynasty.

 

[Alison H]

The Duke of Clarence, Edward's brother and the future William IV, had 10 illegitimate children with his long-term mistress. They were openly acknowledged and used the surname Fitzclarence. So, if Edward and Julie had had any children, I doubt it would have been kept secret. AFAIK she had no children with her husband either, so it seems likely that she wasn't able to have children.

 

[AC21091968]

The Duke of Clarence, Edward's brother and the future William IV, had 10 illegitimate children with his long-term mistress. They were openly acknowledged and used the surname Fitzclarence. So, if Edward and Julie had had any children, I doubt it would have been kept secret. AFAIK she had no children with her husband either, so it seems likely that she wasn't able to have children.

Interestingly, David Cameron (Former British Prime Minister) descends from King William IV and his mistress Dorothea Jordan through their illegitimate daughter Lady Elizabeth FitzClarence (later Elizabeth Hay, Countess of Erroll). David Cameron is the fourth great-grandson (great, great, great, great grandson) of Countess of Erroll. This makes Cameron fifth cousin twice removed to Queen Elizabeth II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Hay,_Countess_of_Erroll

From Channel 4 website: https://www.channel4.com/news/artic...e+pm+william+iv+and+his+mistress/3658767.html

William IV --> Lady Elizabeth FitzClarence --> Lady Agnes Hay --> Lady Agnes Cecil Emmeline Duff --> Stephanie Agnes Cooper --> Enid Agnes Maud Levita --> Ian Donald Cameron --> David Cameron

 

[princeofitaly]

Well, Princess Michael of Kent and Princess Mafalda of Savoy are 6th cousins once removed. They both descended from Savoy dynasty.

Princess Michael of Kent descended from Savoy dynasty??? I did not know this.

 

[Marc23]

Princess Michael of Kent descended from Savoy dynasty??? I did not know this.

Yes, both Princess Michael of Kent and Princess Mafalda descended from Prince Luigi Vittorio of Savoy-Carignano and his wife Princess Christine of Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg, who were also parents of Princess de Lamballe.


Here is her line:

Prince Luigi Vittorio of Savoy-Carignano (1721-1778)
I
Princess Gabrielle of Savoy-Carignano (1748-1828)
I
Prince Franz Josef von Lobkowicz (1772-1816)
I
Princess Gabrielle von Lobkowicz (1793-1863)
I
Prince Vincenz Carl von Auersperg (1816-1867)
I
Princess Marie Gabrielle Eleonore von Auersperg (1855-1933)
I
Princess Marie Hedwig von Windisch-Graetz (1878-1918)
I
Countess Marianne Szápáry de Muraszombat (1911-1988)
I
Princess Michael of Kent (b.1945)