Tsar Paul I (1754-1801) and wives Natalia Alexeievna and Maria Feodorovna

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Russo dear,

It might not matter what's in the blood anymore but Romanov blood is what brought them to the throne. I don't have a genealogical chart handy but wouldn't Maria have to be descended from Paul? And if so, if he was not a Romanov, then neither is she. So, we need to test Paul's DNA with the DNA of an earlier Romanov for comparison. Let's get on the case!

What do you propose we do Holmes?

[Vasillisos Markos]

Originally Posted by Russophile

What do you propose we do Holmes?

Elementary, my dear Watson. First, we must gain access to the St. Peter and St. Paul Cathedral in order to obtain bone scrapings from Paul and one of his revered ancestors, most likely Peter the Great. We will assume the identities of historians with a focus on royalist Russia. You, with your stunning good looks, will work your mojo on President Medyedev and gain our access to the tombs in the cathedral. After that, it will be a cakewalk.

Seriously, don't you think Maria will be opposed to taking DNA samples? She will probably mount some opposition, claiming that procedures to obtain DNA samples will disturb the peace of her revered ancestors.

[EmpressRouge]

Wasn't Elizaveta the last Romanov anyway? Peter actually belonged to the House of Holstein-Gottorps and just kept the Romanov name. I heard the Almanac de Gotha refused have listed them as the house of Romanov, but my memory might be playing tricks on me.

[Al_bina]

You are quite right. The Bolshevicks reminded to common people about this fact regularly.
On a different note, I do not see Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna allowing the DNA test as it may adversely affect her not-so-solid claims to the Russian Imperial throne.

[Vasillisos Markos]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

Wasn't Elizaveta the last Romanov anyway? Peter actually belonged to the House of Holstein-Gottorps and just kept the Romanov name. I heard the Almanac de Gotha refused have listed them as the house of Romanov, but my memory might be playing tricks on me.

Rats! Then we have to collect the DNA from Peter to compare with Paul's because Peter at least was related to Elizabeth and if she was the last Romanov . . .

What say you, Russo dear.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Rats! Then we have to collect the DNA from Peter to compare with Paul's because Peter at least was related to Elizabeth and if she was the last Romanov . . .

What say you, Russo dear.

I say we rob Peter to confirm Paul.

[AGRBear]

No one knows, accept of course Catherine II, who the father was of Paul I, and, she never told.

If she did, it would still be in doubt.

The DNA used to prove DNA for the 4 offsprings of Nicholas II and Alexandra was the use of DNA from the two remains believed to be Nicholas II and Alexandra found in the graves near Ekaterinburg. To go back any farther, we can only follow the female lineage. Daughter to mother to grandmother to great grandmother back to the Seven Eves discovered and written about by Skye.

To prove Nicholas II's DNA, one had to find a link to his mother's female line. In this case, his brother George's remains was used, also.

I don't believe Catherine II had any daughters by Peter III. I don't recall at the moment, did she have any daughters outside of her marriage to Peter III who survived to adulthood who had daughters who had daughters..... so we could trace Catherine II's DNA lineage?

AGRBear

[Dralcoffin]

Intriguingly, according to the Russian version of Wikipedia Catherine did have an illegitimate daughter who had children of her own:

Elizaveta Grigor'yevna Tyomkina (whose father was Grigory Orlov), who married General Ivan Khristoforovich Kalageorgi, and had four sons and six daughters! Sadly, the article doesn't go into any more detail about these grandchildren.

The Russian article on Elizaveta: Тёмкина, Елизавета Григорьевна — Википеди� (The URL is like that because of the Cyrillic title)

Her husband: Калагеорги, Иван Хри�тофорович — Википеди�

A picture of Elizaveta

[Dralcoffin]

Also, for kicks:

Grigory Orlov




Paul I



Peter III

[Al_bina]

Speaking of Catherine II's illegitimate children, we should not forget Count Aleksey Bobrinsky.
Bobrinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dralcoffin]

She also had a daughter probably by Stanislaus Poniatowski (Anna Pavlovna, note the "legitimate" patrinomic), who only lived to be fourteen months old from 1757 to 1759.

[Vasaborg]

Sergei Saltykov also had Romanov blood, he was descended from a sister of the first Romanov Tsar, he was also descended from several Rurikid branches.

[Vasillisos Markos]

I just read some interesting tidbits about Paul on another website. Paul, within hours of taking the throne, issued decrees outlawing waistcoats and jacket linings, and even decreed the size and shape of hats and shoes. He was enamored with the Knights of Malta -- a Roman Catholic order! -- and became the Grand Master. When England seized Malta, Paul became so incensed that he wanted to invade British India, even though this was against Russia's interests and alliances at the time.

Paul built the Mikhailovsky Palace with moats and drawbridges because he knew the populace hated him. After his murder, his wife and the mother of the new Tsar, Alexander, kept the screen Paul hid behind and the paperweight used to bludgeon Paul to death. The dowager Tsarina often received her son by standing before the screen, with the paperweight on a nearby table, as subtle reminders to her son of his complicity in Paul's death.

[Russophile]

Interesting VM. I havent' studied much on Paul, just the cliff's notes. Thanks!

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

Wasn't Elizaveta the last Romanov anyway? Peter actually belonged to the House of Holstein-Gottorps and just kept the Romanov name. I heard the Almanac de Gotha refused have listed them as the house of Romanov, but my memory might be playing tricks on me.

Yes they had the house listed as the House of Holstein-Gottorp Romanov. Each year a member of the Imperial Court would send them a polite letter protesting about the name and in their turn they would receive an equally polite answer stating that since Karl Friedrich , Tsar Peter III's father, was a Duke of Holstein Gottorp they could not liste them solely as the House of Romanov. I think that one year there was the idea of banishing the Almanach de Gotha in Russia (someone fed up sending all these letters thought it I suppose ) but they were afraid of the outcry if it became known in the rest of Europe that the Romanovs treated the Almanach de Gotha the same way as revolutionary papers. So all the could do (and they did it often I believe) was to order that tthe Holstein Gottorp part had to erased to every copy of the book arriving in Russia

[Vasillisos Markos]

Didn't the Russians have the custom and habit of giving dynastic surnames to males or females as a way of continuing the family name? I am thinking specifically of the Yussopovs, because Felix's mama, Zenaida, was the last Yussopov and her husband took her name, and gave it to his sons, as a way of continuing the Yussopov dynasty.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

Didn't the Russians have the custom and habit of giving dynastic surnames to males or females as a way of continuing the family name? I am thinking specifically of the Yussopovs, because Felix's mama, Zenaida, was the last Yussopov and her husband took her name, and gave it to his sons, as a way of continuing the Yussopov dynasty.

Zenaida asked for a special dispensation. Her husband was Count Sumarakov-Elston. I heard from friends studying this that he, the Count, wasn't too happy about giving up his family name for his wife's however, I cannot confirm this. Can you VM?

[Vasillisos Markos]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Zenaida asked for a special dispensation. Her husband was Count Sumarakov-Elston. I heard from friends studying this that he, the Count, wasn't too happy about giving up his family name for his wife's however, I cannot confirm this. Can you VM?

Russo my dear,

I cannot confirm this. Here is a passage from Lost Splendor written by Felix:

"My grandfather lived in Germany until be was sixteen; he then came to Russia where he entered the Army. He was later given the command of the Don Cossacks. He married Helen Sergeievna, Countess Sumarokov, who was the last of her line. On account of this, the Tsar granted Grandfather Elston the right to take his wife's name and title. The same favor was granted to my father when he married the last of the Yussupovs."

Felix goes on to write that his father's temperament was not suited to dealing with people or his wife's immense fortune, but Felix does not mention that his father was upset about changing their surname. I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that Felix's father was not upset because Felix had no compunction about airing dirty laundry and since Felix was proud of his Yussopov ancestors, he would not hesitate to call out his father if the old man did not want the name change.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Vasaborg

Sergei Saltykov also had Romanov blood, he was descended from a sister of the first Romanov Tsar, he was also descended from several Rurikid branches.

I'd like to see this family tree. Do you remember where you saw it?

AGRBear

[Vasaborg]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I'd like to see this family tree. Do you remember where you saw it?
AGRBear

I found that information at Wikipedia.