Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Unanimous? Who asked them all?

When you read Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's book, you will also read the reports from Drs Rudnev, Eitel and other doctors who examined her at the time. All agreeing that she was not a bit insane and did not have the characteristics of an impostor.

[quote What about the doctors who had her locked up in the 30's after her violent rampage at Annie Jennings' place?[/quote]

Those doctors did not examine her, they were just paid handsomely by the Jennings family to sign the commitment papers. Later, when she was sent back to Germany and ended up at Ilten, she was told by the examining doctors the next day that she was free to go, there was nothing mentally wrong with her.

What about the doctors who ruled her unfit near the end of her life and how she was put into a nice mental ward from which her husband abducted her?

She was NOT ruled unfit, it was her husband who was ruled unfit to look after her. AA was ruled sane, but unable to take care of herself.

What about the animal hoarding and living in squalid conditions, that's a big sign of mental illness. Not to mention pretending to be a princess (and remember, FS was declared insane in 1916)

If all the hoarders in America should be ruled insane, I'm afraid we would have a rather large line for the nuthouses.....! And remember, AA NEVER pretended to be a princess, she insisted on being called Mrs. Tschaikowsky. "I lost all that in Rumania" she would say when somebody alluded to her being a Grand Duchess.

No one is trying to destroy her, only the ficticious myth around her, for the sake of integrity in history.

So why are you attributing so many incorrect things to her story? This is not how one preserves the integrity of history!

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

I wonder about prince Philip, though. IMHO at least the males of the family knew that Anna probably was Anastasia - such information which has an influence on the reputation of a noble family is told to the next generation so they should know. As one of his sisters was married into the Hesse-family I wouldn't wonder if he knew about the truth, which is in my opinion the fact that Anna was Anastasia. Maybe he offered his DNA in the hope to set things right, but others botched the samples from Anna, so it could not be proven.

Out of curiosity, how do you know many relatives of Philip were under the impression that Anna Anderson was Anastasia?

And even if all the male relatives (and all the female relatives too for all I care) would think that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, why do you think that they weren't fooled (too)? The DNA research has been very clear about it all, much too clear to be so easily overlooked.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Out of curiosity, how do you know many relatives of Philip were under the impression that Anna Anderson was Anastasia?

And even if all the male relatives (and all the female relatives too for all I care) would think that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, why do you think that they weren't fooled (too)? The DNA research has been very clear about it all, much too clear to be so easily overlooked.

I don't think any of the male relatives thought that Anna was Anastasia. But that is just my opinion. There is no evidence to date that any of the relatives thought she was the Grand Duchess.
As for the DNA evidence, if you ask the Russians it was Maria missing from the grave. The Americans say Anastasia. It could not have been both. So how clear it is?

[ChatNoir]

Prince Sigismund and Prince Friederich were both male relatives of Anastasia, and they both believed in Anna Anderson.
As for Maria, you never heard of anybody searching for her missing body. But the bolsheviks were hot on the trail for Anastasia. According to Swedish Red Cross representative Carl Bonde, his train was stopped in Siberia where soldiers came on board looking for Grand Duchess Anastasia. In the days after the murder of the IF, posters were hung all over Ekaterinburg announcing the escape of one of the daughters, and the bolshevik soldiers scoured houses and hospitals to find the vanished Grand Duchess.

ChatNoir

[Russophile]

Holy Schnikies! I go on vacation and come back to this!
Being in the health care industry you have to not be able to do 3 of 6 things to need in home care, not that you're insane. There are plenty of people who cannot dress themselves, bathe themselves, transport themselves that are perfectly cognizant.

[COUNTESS]

I love that expression, Russophile. Holy Scnikies. Why male memembers? So, 2 German Princes, who spent scant time with Anastasia, thought that Anna was her. Perhaps, some others members of the family thought she was the tooth fairy. The woman was not deranged. She was hoping to be something she wasn't. What did they gain by saying she wasn't Anastasia, after she was dead? People love a mystery. I, personally, do not think Anna was Anastasia, but it would have made very little difference. Nothing today would change. They were looking for her in 1918. So, results from the DNA tests eons later would make no difference.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

I love that expression, Russophile. Holy Scnikies.

Should I put "Batman" after that?

I am not wholly convinced either, but I want to see a chain of events. I keep wondering why all the cover up? That just doesn't make sense so that tells me that they (the Russians) are hiding something. . . .

[COUNTESS]

Oh, did Batman say that? I would not know. Is there really a cover up? Why would anyone care, at this point?

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Prince Sigismund and Prince Friederich were both male relatives of Anastasia, and they both believed in Anna Anderson.
As for Maria, you never heard of anybody searching for her missing body. But the bolsheviks were hot on the trail for Anastasia. According to Swedish Red Cross representative Carl Bonde, his train was stopped in Siberia where soldiers came on board looking for Grand Duchess Anastasia. In the days after the murder of the IF, posters were hung all over Ekaterinburg announcing the escape of one of the daughters, and the bolshevik soldiers scoured houses and hospitals to find the vanished Grand Duchess.

ChatNoir

Anastasia wasn't the only one they were looking for. They were also searching for Alexei. From the book "Sisu: Even Through a Stone Wall the Autobiography of Oskari Tokoi.
During is his train trip through the Urals he wrote of an incident that occurred in the small town of Shalja, which is located about 80 miles from Perm.
"The trip back was made more rapdily - but I almost lost my youngest son. Late in the night, beyond Perm, the train was stopped at some wayside station and surrounded by Red militia. They searched the train with great thoroughness. The passengers learned that they expected to find Czarevitch Alexei, the Czar's 13-year-old son, who had escaped from Jekaterinburg! My sone was sharing a compartment with out interpreter. As soon as the militia saw the boy the pounced on him. He was the same age, and the sam height, and - they declared - he looked the same as the Czarevitch, so he could be nobody else but the Czarevitch."
The matter was eventually cleared up after his son had to walk the corridor of the train to prove he didn't have a limp as the Czarevitch was reported to have.

[ChatNoir]

From a letter written by A. H. to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann. (She never divulged the full name of her witnesses to spare them further difficulties. Peter Kurth knows A.H.'s full name.)

We learned of the murder of the Imperial Family from sick sailors who had been brought in a few days after it occurred. It was said that the discovery of weapons during a domiliciary visit was the cause of death sentence. It was further rumoured that two of the Grand Duchesses had disappeared in some unexplained manner. A whole series of proclamations and orders was issued relating to the harbouring of strange persons. An order was also issued concerning deserters from the Army, in which order the death penalty was reintroduced. An announcement to the "population and the Army" stated that, in the course of the execution of the sentence passed on the Romanov family by the Ekaterinburg Soviet, various persons had hampered the work of the executioners and had fled with female members of the Romanov family, taking valuables with them. The deserters were mentioned by name, and the order went on as follows: "Into the midtst of us, the pillars of the Soviets, Tsarist counterrevolutionaries have crept, which is a proof that a counterrevolutionary movement, already far advanced, is is train, of which the Imperial Family was at the head." Unfortunately, I did not note the names of the deserters, as I never imagined at that time that this might one day perhaps be important for a victim of this tragic occurrence. One thing, however, is certain, that one or more members of the Imperial Family are in existence, for the murderous crew was aware that one or the other of their victims had escaped them. Their search for them was carried on zealously, and roused terrible fury. Many persons were imprisoned on the charge of having sheltered the fugitives and shot after a summary trial. Houses were searched everywhere, and also the hospitals, especially the women's wards, which were placed permanently under strict supervision.

ChatNoir

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

From a letter written by A. H. to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann. (She never divulged the full name of her witnesses to spare them further difficulties. Peter Kurth knows A.H.'s full name.)

We learned of the murder of the Imperial Family from sick sailors who had been brought in a few days after it occurred. It was said that the discovery of weapons during a domiliciary visit was the cause of death sentence. It was further rumoured that two of the Grand Duchesses had disappeared in some unexplained manner. A whole series of proclamations and orders was issued relating to the harbouring of strange persons. An order was also issued concerning deserters from the Army, in which order the death penalty was reintroduced. An announcement to the "population and the Army" stated that, in the course of the execution of the sentence passed on the Romanov family by the Ekaterinburg Soviet, various persons had hampered the work of the executioners and had fled with female members of the Romanov family, taking valuables with them. The deserters were mentioned by name, and the order went on as follows: "Into the midtst of us, the pillars of the Soviets, Tsarist counterrevolutionaries have crept, which is a proof that a counterrevolutionary movement, already far advanced, is is train, of which the Imperial Family was at the head." Unfortunately, I did not note the names of the deserters, as I never imagined at that time that this might one day perhaps be important for a victim of this tragic occurrence. One thing, however, is certain, that one or more members of the Imperial Family are in existence, for the murderous crew was aware that one or the other of their victims had escaped them. Their search for them was carried on zealously, and roused terrible fury. Many persons were imprisoned on the charge of having sheltered the fugitives and shot after a summary trial. Houses were searched everywhere, and also the hospitals, especially the women's wards, which were placed permanently under strict supervision.

ChatNoir

Well, it seems they were wrong about two Grand Duchesses. The bodies missing from the mass grave or Alexei and Anastasia. Given your quote and the quote from Susu, it is obvious they thought that there was an escape.

[ChatNoir]

You're right, Lexi, there seems to have been quite a bit of confusion among the execution squad as to who were missing.

ChatNoir

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Oh, did Batman say that? I would not know. Is there really a cover up? Why would anyone care, at this point?

No, that would have been Robin.
Being the historical, Nancy Drew buff that I am (and more than a little obsessed by the whole thing!), I am fascinated by this, hoping that it will be cleared up in an orderly fashion for posterity and my own curiosity, which, most likely will get me killed or severely maimed, someday.

[COUNTESS]

Oh, I hope not. It is so very long ago. Bones here, bones there. DNA here, DNA there. Alexis could never have survived without specialized help. He could barely survive a fall. Perhaps, one or two of the girls got out. I doubt that, becuase of the murderous fury of those that killed them. But, if they had, where did they go? And, last, but not least, Anna spoke German, but no English or French. Anastasia spoke both.

[Russophile]

Not so long ago. Not yet 100 years.
Again, for me, the jury is out on Anna Anderson. But I still want to know what happened. What if Alexis survived then was buried someplace else? What if Anastasia survived, lived in Norway and had kids? What if some guard took pity on them, saved them only to have them die from their wounds later and buried them in the back yard? Anti-climatic, but wrapped up, none-the-less.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

Oh, I hope not. It is so very long ago. Bones here, bones there. DNA here, DNA there. Alexis could never have survived without specialized help. He could barely survive a fall. Perhaps, one or two of the girls got out. I doubt that, becuase of the murderous fury of those that killed them. But, if they had, where did they go? And, last, but not least, Anna spoke German, but no English or French. Anastasia spoke both.

AA spoke "a hopelessly muddled German with a heavy Russian accent". In her sleep, she "spoke Russian with good pronunciation, but mostly about unessential things". At Dalldorf, the journals have entries of her "speaking Russian like a native with the nurses there". Under anesthaesia, she was "raving in English". Conrad Wahl, Inspector Grünberg's nephew, remembered "die kranke Dame" as someone who spoke "more English than German" already in the early twenties. According to Dominique Aucleres, AA "spoke French with a beautiful accent". So, in short, AA spoke all the languages that AN spoke.

ChatNoir

[COUNTESS]

According to her aunt, Grand Duchess Olga, Ms. Anderson did not show any recoginition of her. Also the Grand Duchess claimed that she did not speak Russian or English. Ian Vorres, the official biographer for the Grand Duchess Olga received a letter from Duke Dmitri of Leuchtenberg, son of Duke George of Leuchtenberg, which stated that he invited Ms. Anderson to spend some time at his castle. He states, "she did not speak or undertsand Russian or English, nor French. She spoke German with a Northern German accent." So, we have so many different accounts of what she did or did not speak. Who knows what is true.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

According to her aunt, Grand Duchess Olga, Ms. Anderson did not show any recoginition of her.

That is not what she stated to begin with. She said to Herluf Zahle that "My head cannot understand it, but my heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia." Obviously, the contact was there. She also wrote to AA: Don't be afraid, we shall not abandon you. (Yeah, right!) Another time, she wrote: "I remember when we were together (in Russia)". Why would she write that to a stranger. She also gave her as a present GD Marie's personal photo album. Not something one gives to a person who "does not show any recognition.

Also the Grand Duchess claimed that she did not speak Russian or English.

Not quite right. Even Gilliard had to admit in the Hamburg court that AA had indeed spoken Russian to his wife, Alexandra Tegleva.

Ian Vorres, the official biographer for the Grand Duchess Olga received a letter from Duke Dmitri of Leuchtenberg, son of Duke George of Leuchtenberg, which stated that he invited Ms. Anderson to spend some time at his castle. He states, "she did not speak or undertsand Russian or English, nor French. She spoke German with a Northern German accent." So, we have so many different accounts of what she did or did not speak. Who knows what is true.

I have never heard about Dmitri of Leuchtenberg inviting AA to stay with him, he was convinced from day one that she was a fraud, while his sister believed in her. The squabble about her speaking languages should have been put to rest a long time ago. We all know that she spoke fluent English from the day she arrived in New York in 1927. Xenia stated that when alone in her room, she would speak in Russian to her birds, and Mrs. Derfelden remembered their walks in the garden where AA "would call all the flowers by their quaint Russian names." Even Nina Chavchavadze, who did not support AA's claim, said: "Whoever she is, she is a lady of high society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian. In 1938, AA had a really good mental period, she was at the time
supported by the Madsack's in Hannover, and her fear of speaking Russian disappeared, and she used it freely with Professor Rudnev and her lawyer's associate. Later, when the Nazis started snooping into her case, she refused to speak Russian again.
As for speaking German with a Northern accent; this is the opposite of what a doctor at Dalldorf stated. He said that she spoke German with a Southern accent. But most statements quote her as speaking a poor German with a Russian accent. Even Baroness Buxhoeveden attested to that.

ChatNoir

[Cumberland]

Originally Posted by COUNTESS

I love that expression, Russophile. Holy Scnikies. Why male memembers? So, 2 German Princes, who spent scant time with Anastasia, thought that Anna was her. Perhaps, some others members of the family thought she was the tooth fairy. The woman was not deranged. She was hoping to be something she wasn't. What did they gain by saying she wasn't Anastasia, after she was dead? People love a mystery. I, personally, do not think Anna was Anastasia, but it would have made very little difference. Nothing today would change. They were looking for her in 1918. So, results from the DNA tests eons later would make no difference.

Also there were Crown Princess Cecilie Of Germany, (whose mother was a Romanov), there were Princess Xenia and her sister, daughters of Grand Duke
George & Princess Marie of Greece.

Near the end of her life Irene of Prussia said, "She is similar, but what does that mean if it is not she?" Clearly an enigma.

Countess I just don't feel that you can throw out all the facts assembled just because of the DNA results, and result to speculation as to how she learned what learned or who taught her, it seems that if DNA is an uimpeachable fact or source then, what we know as fact should also stay as fact.

That is what is so fascinating about this case.

[COUNTESS]

Well, you are right. Other than the DNA evidence which is concrete, there is so much inconclusive evidence. Some say one thing, other say something else. I do not know the real truth. Fact is, no one does. DNA is quite potent. What always confused me, is that if she were alive, as her Grandmother the Dowager Empress said, would they have denied her. Forget, some of the minor players. Her aunts, who loved her very much, did not belive it to be her. I do not know the answer, as it is all conjecture, except for the DNA.