Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Blog Real]

Could Pavlos have the title of "King of the Hellenes" (different from King of Greece). It can also be called the Duke of Sparta. Or you can continue with the title of Crown Prince. But we will only know after King Constantine departs.

 

[An Ard Ri]

He'll continue to be styled (titular) Crown Prince unless there's a miraculous change of regime in Greece.

 

[IRIS1983]

The Crown Prince Pavlos has the title created by the Hellenes Royal House and recognized by other European royal houses of Duke of Sparta(Crown Prince ). In the future, when he would be Head of the Royal house, it will be necessary to distinguish: - For the monarchists, he will be the King of the Hellenes, because he is HEad of the Royal house.

- Between Royal houses, or the protocol of the Royal Houses, he will be the Head of the royal house of the Hellenes, with title of Prince( because it is necesary a throne to be king). For Greece, if in the future it would change its _ form of state to monarchy (assuming the rules that govern European royal houses) he would be HEAD of state of Greece, therefore King of Greece.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Nobiliary titles are personal,it is established at the resolution of the court of Strasbourg of 2000, but also, is included in the agreement of Vienna of 1815. The nobiliary titles are not of the states, because
The royal houses are before than the states. The Royal houses are Personal and historical entities,( with own and particular rules between royal houses outside the states).

Do you have a link to this ruling?

The states is a territorial entity, with a population and a political form,. A state can modify its political form, monarchy,or republic, but the Royal house can not be suppressed by a state because it is not competent. A state can grant legal effect to titles nobiliary or not.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I can't see how it could be possible for a state to have the authority to grant titles but not to suppress them.

I don't know about " of Greece", but my understanding is that all male line descendants of King Christian IX are " Princes of Denmark ". , except the descendants of King Christian X who are in the line of succession to the Danish throne and are therefore "Princes to Denmark". Instead.

All members of the Greek royal family do and will always be titles Prince/Princess (name) of Greece and Denmark,

Count Ingolf of Rosenborg is a male line descendant of King Christian IX and he is no longer a Prince to (or of) Denmark. My understanding is that authority to determine who is a Prince or Princess of (or to) Denmark is vested in the Danish monarch.

 

[theroyalfly]

I think monarchists will regard him as King Pavlos II of the Hellenes but he will always be HRH The Crown Princess. This is in the same regard to the late Crown Prince Otto and his heir that even after his father's death, he remained Crown Prince. Same with the Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia.

Pavlos' heir will still be addressed as Prince and not Crown Prince.

Unless, King Constantine decrees Pavlos to be called King or any title with a style of His Majesty after his death like Margareta of Romania then it will have basis.

 

[Heavs]

They do not call themselves kings or princes. They bear titles that belong to their royal house.
You have to differentiate: A state of a real house, they are not the same.
The Greek royal house is a European royal house, recognized by the rest of the royal houses, they carry titles that are valid for the royal houses, and for the States with monarchy that recognize the titles of royalty. Britain allowed to be identified with the title of royalty, Princess Theodora in her British passport she is "Princess Theodora", because Britain is a state with a monarchy and recognizes the protocols of European royal houses.

Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.

 

[Princess_Eleanor]

Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.

I've read that they have Danish passports referring to them as Princes and Princesses of Denmark via Anne-Marie.

 

[stef]

Are you sure about that? Because Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of its citizens on documents like passports. Whilst The BRF and the media and everyone else are happy to call them by their titles socially they can't necessarily document it legally because legally speaking the titles don't exist anymore. And even if they did wouldn't be valid on a UK passport. It has nothing to do with whether Britain is a monarchy or not. It also doesn't seem like HM has given any British titles to them that would be legal in the UK.

Unless "Princess Theodora" is her name like Katie Price named her daughter "Princess Tiami" or something.

Theodora is "Princess " in her passport, Princess is a title is not a name. She was born in Britain. She bears the title and can use it, because the royal house of the Hellenes exists in a manifest form. Her title is valid and is recognized by the authorities. She can identify with that title.
I believe I have read that Alexander of Yugoslavia, who had also carried a British passport, also had in his Bristish passport to identify himself, the title of Prince .
I imagine that the situation will be more difficult with titles belonging to less current royal houses at the time.
I do not know if this is only with the titles of royal houses or all titles of the nobility as well. This allows you to identify with the title in the public documents.
I have read in the section of this forum about king Juan Carlos of spain , it spoke about his lover Corinna Larses, I have read this in the section , it was a news about the title of princess that this woman used in britain, she used the title of princess, her ex-in-laws, sent a statement informing that Corinna did not carry the title of Princess Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, title from Germany, because she had lost it in her divorce. the news had link with residence documents or the official use of her title in British public documents.....I don´t remember it with exactly, But her title was german (is a republic) and she was useing the title in Britain.

 

[Somebody]

Princess of Greece and Denmark is not a British title, so it won't be in her British passport. However, if you have proof otherwise (a picture of her passport page) please share because that would be a huge deviation of the official British policy that they do not recognize foreign titles for their nationals. Which is for example why the queen's grandson-in-law does not officially carry his Italian title of count; her cousin-in-law doesn't carry her Silesian title of Baroness; nor does her husband carry his Greek title of prince.

In Corinna's case, it could be that she is using 'prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn' as surname in any of her papers (as that is how the Germans are handling former titles - they have become surnames - although in social use they are used as titles among the nobility); but not 'princess' as a title.

 

[Lipe]

"It is not a huge deviation of the official British policy".

One thema is the titles of the nobility, and another, the titles of the European royal houses, this is, the royalty.
The titles of Baroness, Count, Duke, Marquis ... are titles of the nobility, these titles are recognized exclusively in the states to which these belong, and only if these titles are recognized in that country, Italy does not recognize those titles of the nobility, it is a Republic, it does not officially or legally grant or recognize these titles.

It is obvious that these foreign titles cannot be valid in Great Britain. They are titles for the state to which they belong and have no more legal effect in other states with monarchy.

However, the royal houses are different, in its concept and in its recognition by other states with monarchy. They have a different treatment.

I speak, for example, of Spain, and its legislation on the matter is similar to that of other countries. This is not an anomaly, because there are even international treaties about this titles. .

The countries with a monarchy, normally, there may be exceptions, these states recognize the European royal houses, whether or not they are on the thrones (I remember that it has a limit, not all royal houses are eternally recognized,..in conclusion it has limits, but it makes sense, because you can observe that the Britain royal house itself When it brought together the royal houses, 2012,there were not all the ones we see on the internet). The titles of the royal houses do not constitute a privilege, it only allows the use of the title. These titles are recognozed in the countries with monarchy.

I am going to give an example.
Princess Irene of Greece, asked Spain for an exceptional way (we all know the problems that they have had with their passport) the Spanish nationality, this was granted by the Spanish government, who granted him the treatment of Highness, and recognition of her title of royalty.In her Spanish passport, she is Princess Irene.

In the Greek royal house, titles are only transmitted by men, no women, and it is not extended to her consort either. Into of the web, you can read who are members of this royal house, for exemple, Queen Sophia and Prince Michael.

 

[tamta]

Congratulations to the couple.
This civil wedding, as I have read, is a prerequisite to be able to celebrate the religious marriage, because Philippos has a British passport and Nina Flohr Swiss, so the civil marriage is the marriage valid before the corresponding legislation, the religious marriage would be secondary.

How come Prince Philippos has a British passport, when none of his parents are British or have a British passport..?

 

[Blog Real]

I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?

 

[Somebody]

"It is not a huge deviation of the official British policy".

One thema is the titles of the nobility, and another, the titles of the European royal houses, this is, the royalty.
The titles of Baroness, Count, Duke, Marquis ... are titles of the nobility, these titles are recognized exclusively in the states to which these belong, and only if these titles are recognized in that country, Italy does not recognize those titles of the nobility, it is a Republic, it does not officially or legally grant or recognize these titles.

It is obvious that these foreign titles cannot be valid in Great Britain. They are titles for the state to which they belong and have no more legal effect in other states with monarchy.

However, the royal houses are different, in its concept and in its recognition by other states with monarchy. They have a different treatment.

I speak, for example, of Spain, and its legislation on the matter is similar to that of other countries. This is not an anomaly, because there are even international treaties about this titles. .

The countries with a monarchy, normally, there may be exceptions, these states recognize the European royal houses, whether or not they are on the thrones (I remember that it has a limit, not all royal houses are eternally recognized,..in conclusion it has limits, but it makes sense, because you can observe that the Britain royal house itself When it brought together the royal houses, 2012,there were not all the ones we see on the internet). The titles of the royal houses do not constitute a privilege, it only allows the use of the title. These titles are recognozed in the countries with monarchy.

I am going to give an example.
Princess Irene of Greece, asked Spain for an exceptional way (we all know the problems that they have had with their passport) the Spanish nationality, this was granted by the Spanish government, who granted him the treatment of Highness, and recognition of her title of royalty.In her Spanish passport, she is Princess Irene.

In the Greek royal house, titles are only transmitted by men, no women, and it is not extended to her consort either. Into of the web, you can read who are members of this royal house, for exemple, Queen Sophia and Prince Michael.

We were talking about British policy. So, I am not sure how your example of how in Spain an exception was made for the queen of Spain's sister is an example of how the British government treats her own nationals that claim a foreign title. Which, as far as I've been told, is something they do NOT recognize. They do recognize foreign titles of foreigners but not of their own citizens.

 

[Biri]

How come Prince Philippos has a British passport, when none of his parents are British or have a British passport..?

He was born in the UK.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?

He'll remain Crown Prince unless the Greek Monarchy is miraculously restored.

 

[Susan D]

At that time I am not aware that a British birth immediately gave the baby British citizenship. So, I think that his parents got the British citizenship for him. Otherwise, he'd be Greek or Danish.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

They do not call themselves kings or princes.

They do so on their website.
https://www.greekroyalfamily.gr/en/royal-family.html

For the Greek state in the form of a republic, no royal title is valid, because it does not recognize the royal houses, only the positions they occupy and the title that this state has given to the institution, but no royal families.

Can you give an example of that? I would be very surprised if on state visits to Greece the Greek government would refuse to recognize the valid title of Queen Margrethe II of Denmark, for instance.

Titles are created by royal houses, not states. States cannot create Royal Houses titles. The republic does not give legal effects to titles, but it does not exterminate titles, because it is not competent to do so.

The existence of HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium would suggest the opposite.

 

[tamta]

And I tell you that Theodora in an interview published in Spain about 2011, she said, that she loved Greece because it was her father's home, but she was proud of her British passport.

I didn't know of that. A lousy statement for a Greek princess.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

No, you don't see it like that, she loves Greece, and in fact she will marry in Greece. In the interview she said that she loved Greece and that since her childhood in her house in London she had been brought up with the Greek traditions, she celebrated Greek holidays such as Easter .. and others. When in the same interview, she talks about her British passport ... The journalist asks her: What is your homeland (Greece or Great Britain) then? She replied that her homeland was Greece, because it was her father's homeland, and where her father's homeland is, it is her own. But she does not hate or despise Great Britain, she was born there she grew up there and she has her British passport of hers that she does not despise, on the contrary she appreciates her nationality of her.
I appreciate Theodora very much, and I understand her position seeing the behavior of the Greek politicians, and the 1994 law, I understand Theodora, what Greece has not given her and has been given by Great Britain , even Queen Elizabeth is her godmother, and Theodora appreciates her very much.She has great loyalty to her father.

 

[Denville]

I didn't know of that. A lousy statement for a Greek princess.

What is "lousy" about it? She was born in the UK.. the Greek RF have zero hopes IMO of ever returning to Greece.. so why would she not have loyalty to the place she was born and from which she holds her passport?

 

[Biri]

She replied that her homeland was Greece, because it was her father's homeland, and where her father's homeland is, it is her own.

And her second homeland is Denmark, because her mother was born and raised there.

 

[Lipe]

I think this is best explained with an example.
To better understand the positions, the royal houses and the states constitute two different spheres, with its own rules and laws.

Example,
Spain 1975: By a law of 1969 that says: that if the Head of State, Franciso Franco, dies, the new Head of State will be Prince Juan Carlos with the title of King. In 1975, Franco has died, Juan Carlos is proclaimed King by state law, but not by the rules of the royal house of Spain.This proclamation violates the rules of the Spanish Royal House that established that Don Juan was the Crown Prince with the right to be King in the event of restoring the monarchy in Spain.

The Spanish royal house in 1975, its Head was Don Juan, it was not Juan Carlos. Don Juan, father of Juan Carlos should have been the King. After the proclamation of Juan Carlos as head of Spanish state, with the title of king by law, his title was created by state law, Don Juan his father, he is still the Head of the Spanish royal house.

Consequences of this:

Hypothesis: if King Juan Carlos had visited Great Britain in 1976, for example, Queen Elizabeth II would have received him with the protocol of a head of state, but would not have applied the protocol to receive a king. An example, Crown Prince Carlos would not have had to bow his head to greet the Spanish head of State, Juan Carlos, even if he had a title created by a 1969 law.
Why? Because in the field of European royal houses, which is where this protocol is applied, Juan Carlos is only the head of state, his title of king is not linked to any royal house. He would be received with the same protocol as a president of the republic.

Another example:
If Queen Elizabeth had held a celebration where all the European royal houses had gathered, as it was in 2012, in the photo who would be sitting as Head of the Spanish royal house, he would be Don Juan. Juan Carlos would not be invited, it is a party of royal houses, not of kings by law.

In 1977, Don Juan, head of the Spanish royal house, in a public act, to correct the situation provoked by law, handed over to his son the rights of the royal house that he represented. Since that day, the title of King of Juan Carlos ceased to be a title created by a law, it was the title of a Royal House. The rest of the royal houses and states with monarchy would apply with him the protocol of the Royal Houses.

Hypothesis, if King Juan Carlos had made an official visit to Great Britain, in 1978,Queen Elizabeth II would apply the protocol of the Royal Houses, she would have gone to the airport to receive the King, and her son Prince Charles, would have bowed his head to greet him .


The same is true in the republics. European royal houses are not recognized, nor are its protocols. The Republic respects what the law of that country says, but does not recognize the protocols of the Royal Houses.

A state with monarchy recognizes the Royal houses and its protocols(Royal houses without a throne are also recognized)A Republic only recognizes the Kings like Head of states, the republic does not recognize the protocols of Royal houses. The Presidents of the Republic and the Kings are received with the same treatment, regardless of the title they carry .In the republics,by example, King Juan Carlos was received with same protocol that a President of Republic,he was King ,because the spanish law said it,but the republics did not recognize him like King of Royal House.

Royal houses have its own normative sphere. When a state changes the law of succession to allow the woman to be Head of State, with title of Queen , for this to have effect within the royal house, it must be accepted by the Head of the Royal House, if this is not accepted, then it would be the same thing that happened in Spain from 1975 to 1977, King juan carlos King of spain by a title created by law that is not a title of a Royal house, because don Juan was Head of royal house that had the right to this title of king.

Regarding Delphine, she is the daughter of King Albert, a judge has said that Belgian law grants her the title of Princess. She is a title created by Belgian law, it is a new title created by the legislator, but no by a royal house, to the rest of royal houses, she is not princess, she is sphere of the law no in the sphere of the royal houses and its protocols. If King Philip says that Delphine is member of the royal house and recognize to her like princess, then she will be princess to the rest of royalhouses and this protocol will be applied for her.
I hope that was understood.
A sphere is the law and other the norms of royal house.
The royal house of greece is recognize by other monarchies and international organist like IOC, he can be named HM KIng constantine.

the royal house of Greece exists has not been exterminated by law,the law has not competence for it. When you refer to the website, first you must say that it is the website of a royal house, he is King, it is his royal house, this Royal house is recognized by all royal houses, and monarchies . And monarchists of the world including Greeks.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Hypothesis: if King Juan Carlos had visited Great Britain in 1976, for example, Queen Elizabeth II would have received him with the protocol of a head of state, but would not have applied the protocol to receive a king. An example, Crown Prince Carlos would not have had to bow his head to greet the Spanish head of State, Juan Carlos, even if he had a title created by a 1969 law.

[...]

Regarding Delphine, she is the daughter of King Albert, a judge has said that Belgian law grants her the title of Princess. She is a title created by Belgian law, it is a new title created by the legislator, but no by a royal house, to the rest of royal houses, she is not princess, she is sphere of the law no in the sphere of the royal houses and its protocols.

That is interesting if true (have any non-hypothetical examples been documented?). But the discussion was of official policy, including passports, which is separate from behavior such as bowing.

the royal house of Greece exists has not been exterminated by law,the law has not competence for it. When you refer to the website, first you must say that it is the website of a real house, he is King, it is his royal house, this Royal house is recognized by all royal houses, and monarchies . And monarchists of the world including Greeks.

I don't think there is any suggestion that the family has been "exterminated". But they have ceased to have any official competence over the state and its titles, even if a minority of Greeks remain monarchists.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

I have a question. What will be the title of Prince Pavlos when he becomes head of the Greek Royal House?

Will he use the title of Duke of Sparta? Or will he continue to use the title of Crown Prince of Greece?

In a list of Pretenders to the Throne, would not Pavlos be listed as Pavlos II? Would not the Roman numeral II refer to kingship?

 

[Heavs]

Theodora is "Princess " in her passport, Princess is a title is not a name. She was born in Britain. She bears the title and can use it, because the royal house of the Hellenes exists in a manifest form. Her title is valid and is recognized by the authorities. She can identify with that title.
I believe I have read that Alexander of Yugoslavia, who had also carried a British passport, also had in his Bristish passport to identify himself, the title of Prince .
I imagine that the situation will be more difficult with titles belonging to less current royal houses at the time.
I do not know if this is only with the titles of royal houses or all titles of the nobility as well. This allows you to identify with the title in the public documents.
I have read in the section of this forum about king Juan Carlos of spain , it spoke about his lover Corinna Larses, I have read this in the section , it was a news about the title of princess that this woman used in britain, she used the title of princess, her ex-in-laws, sent a statement informing that Corinna did not carry the title of Princess Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, title from Germany, because she had lost it in her divorce. the news had link with residence documents or the official use of her title in British public documents.....I don´t remember it with exactly, But her title was german (is a republic) and she was useing the title in Britain.

Yes but Britain doesn't officially recognise foreign titles of it's own citizens. Whether they legally exist or not.

And diplomatically it would be extremely diplomatically awkward for the UK to allow Theodora "HRH Princess of Greece/Hellenes" when the Greek government itself used "former King of the Hellenes" for her father.

But it's really about the Royal Warrant of 1932 when the legal use of foreign titles by British citizens in the UK was discontinued. Other countries may have different policies. Sometimes they might have a note saying "This person is also known as Prince xxx of YYYY" but that would be it.

You can use titles socially in Britain, that's certainly not a problem. HM referred to Constantine as The King when she talked about him (as reported from a meeting) and BP uses them officially sometimes. And Corrina ZSW has/had that title as a legal surname which is how defunct German Houses get around that problem.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I have previously said in a commentary to Tamta that he does not see from that negative perspective the appreciation of her British passport, she loves Greece, and I have found another interview of Theodora published in 2011, she says about her artistic name Theodora Greece ". .. On the other hand that is the reason why I use the name Theodora Greece, because I do not want to abandon my origins. That is my name and that is my country from which I come and I do not want to dishonor that. I just have to find the balance. Fair "???

I post this to specify

 

[BELTRANEJA]

Princess Theodora has not recognized the title, because British law since the First World War does not recognize foreign titles to identify herself in a passport.

Which seems very unfair to me because in other countries with monarchies, the british titles are recognize is allowed, the normal by reciprocity is, that it will not be recognized either. But this is another matter.
Another issue is that the British royal house, which is what causes confusion, has recognized the European royal houses, and their titles, and when they are invited on the lists they appear as Her Highness the Princess ..... this is Another issue, it is competence of the british royal house .

Other thema is that it can be used and in fact exists, and is legal, it is the possibility of using the Princess as a name, this if it is viable, and legal, it is not as a title but it is as a name.

You've talked about that the Greek government recognizes Constantine as Ex-King,no. The socialist Greek government, which is ridiculous, in the court of Strasbourg when the king claimed his properties, a judgment that the King won, the court had to resolve previous questions because the lawyer for the Greek government said that he could not be identified like ex King , with very ridiculous arguments, in order to obstruct the trial , the court was the one who said that Constantine could be identified as a ex king by the greek government.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Greek government makes fun of Constantine as "Degrecia", if I recall correctly. It's been a long-standing standoff that they will not issue the family passports because they don't have a last name and Constantine refuses to take one to be considered "Greek" and give in. I doubt either side will budge, but they're within their rights to use Greece if they want. Theodora certainly uses it as a professional name, and she could have picked anything.

Edit: For another thing, if it was meant to be a Greek claim or surname, which it isn't, wouldn't it be "h/ellas"-something?

Not necessarily. These days, a territorial designation is more likely to be translated into other languages than a surname. See for instance the Spanish royal family: It is undisputed that "de Borbón" is their surname and "de España" is their territorial designation. The norm is that "de España" is translated into English as "of Spain" while "de Borbón" is nowadays untranslated in the normal course of events, although in the old days it would have been translated as "of Bourbon".

 

[Prinsara]

Alternatively, it seems possible to do it to assert a connection with Greece, and not a claim. Constantine has spent the last fifty-plus years being hurt and bewildered at being told he isn't Greek, and rather than comply to re-claim citizenship, this is a very civilized way of flipping them off.

 

[Stefanie]

Which citizenship does the Royal family of Greece have right now?