Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Viv]

This is a finished issue. The Danish Royal Family had no surname, Is it need that the Queen Margaret chooses a surname too?

I'm not sure which post you're referring to, but: As a Queen regnant HM Queen Margrethe is in no need of a surname whereas as a private citizen the former king of Greece is!

viv

 

[Nikolopoulus]

Viv, that's not true. King would like to have a Greek surname, the surname is very relevant, but he wants the best, and it is the problem, the two best greeks surnames can not choose, because are monopoly of two family, the Papandreou and Karamanlís. If he can not to have the best surname....it is best no to change.

 

[snowflower]

Today I was reading the thread about the wedding of the late Dyke and Duchess of Kent and realised it's very interesting . The bride is simply mentioned as Marine without a last name and under the rank or occupation column she is listed as Princess of Greece. Her father however is named Nicolas Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (I had to use a magnifuing glass on this so I am not completely sure but still very sure) and as rank or occupation he is "HRH Prince Nicolas of Greece and of Denmark" What to you think , did I manage to read correct the certificate and is it the only time tthat you know of a Greek royal used used this last name?
Here is a slightly bigger picture that the one of the thread http://watermarked.heritage-images.com/1218770.jpg

 

[IRIS1983]

but these are not surnames. It is places , titles of nobility that identify a Real House, but not properly surnames. other example, the Royal house of Hannover, Hannover is not properly one surname, it is the place (It is one place of Gemany, where is the origen of this Royal House, (Hannover are the persons members of the Royal House). Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg are members of the Royal House of Greece, but it is not surname(places and titles)

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

In Britain , a person who is entitled to the style of HRH and titular dignity of prince/ss doesn't require a surname.

 

[snowflower]

Perphas , but in that particular certificate (who knows why) both the groom and his father decided to use a last name - The Duke of Kent is listed as " George Edward Alexander Edmund Windsor" and King George V as "George Frederick Ernest Albert Windsor" . Maybe that's why Nicolas put the S-H-S-G title as a last name

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Perphas , but in that particular certificate (who knows why) both the groom and his father decided to use a last name - The Duke of Kent is listed as " George Edward Alexander Edmund Windsor" and King George V as "George Frederick Ernest Albert Windsor" . Maybe that's why Nicolas put the S-H-S-G title as a last name

I didn't know that. Interesting. These royals are always making it up as they go along , at least the BRF seem to

For example in official documents, the Duchess of Cambridge signs her name as 'Catherine' and nothing else. I don't know what she uses privately

 

[Artemisia]

In Britain , a person who is entitled to the style of HRH and titular dignity of prince/ss doesn't require a surname.

Where did you get that information? The surname of (most members of) the British Royal Family is Windsor.

Before 1917, the British Royal Family didn't have a surname and went by just the name of the House they belonged at the moment (Hanover, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha...). However, George V's Letters Patent 1917 specifically designated Windsor as not just the name of the House, but also the family name of the British Royal Family. Two further Letters Patent issued by Elizabeth II confirmed that, with the exception of those of her male-line descendants who are not Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the Real (they are Mountbatten-Windsor).

For example in official documents, the Duchess of Cambridge signs her name as 'Catherine' and nothing else. I don't know what she uses privately

The Queen signs most documents as E.R., Camilla - just as Camilla, etc. It's just a signature and it doesn't mean they don't have a surname; they do - Windsor.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Where did you get that information? The surname of (most members of) the British Royal Family is Windsor.

Before 1917, the British Royal Family didn't have a surname and went by just the name of the House they belonged at the moment (Hanover, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha...). However, George V's Letters Patent 1917 specifically designated Windsor as not just the name of the House, but also the family name of the British Royal Family. Two further Letters Patent issued by Elizabeth II confirmed that, with the exception of those of her male-line descendants who are not Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the Real (they are Mountbatten-Windsor).


The Queen signs most documents as E.R., Camilla - just as Camilla, etc. It's just a signature and it doesn't mean they don't have a surname; they do - Windsor.

I didn't say they don't have a surname but that titled members of the BRF don't require surnames. Read my post again if you must

 

[Artemisia]

I didn't say they don't have a surname but that titled members of the BRF don't require surnames

Why not?
Charles, Anne, William, Harry and the others have all used surnames whenever needed, such as for their weddings or Army career.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Princess Katherine of Greece and her husband, Major Richard Brandram, settled in England.
She received permission to style herself Lady Katherine Brandram.
King George VI granted Princess Katherine the status of a duke's daughter in the order of precedence.
This style was only valid in the United Kingdom, as she remained Princess Katherine, Princess of Greece and Denmark.
​

 

[maria-olivia]

Will Pavlos and Marie Chantal wear one day the tittle King and Queen of Greece or will they remain Princes ??

 

[wartenberg7]

Will Pavlos and Marie Chantal wear one day the tittle King and Queen of Greece or will they remain Princes ??

Definitely remain Princes (they´re not even by that rechognized by some greeks...). You only keep the title of a King or Queen when you once held the office.

 

[maria-olivia]

Thanks , so He will remain Crown Prince without Crown .
So Constantin will be the last King !
(such as King Michel of Roumania )

 

[fandesacs2003]

And unless something changes Pavlos will be the last Crown Prince. His kids are simply Princes

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Will future generations of the Greek Royal Family continue to have the title of Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark?

 

[Countessmeout]

They are entitled to it because of an act passed in 1774 referring to descendants of Christian IX. Though they lost their right to succession in 1953, their right to the title Prince/ss of Denmark remained. It would require a new royal act to strip the male line heirs of the right.

That said there are those who have chosen not to use the title. It is entirely possible as future generations go, they may drop it. But considering how they hold tightly to their former Greek titles, likely won't be for some generations.

 

[stef]

Nobiliary titles are personal,it is established at the resolution of the court of Strasbourg of 2000, but also, is included in the agreement of Vienna of 1815. The nobiliary titles are not of the states, because
The royal houses are before than the states. The Royal houses are Personal and historical entities,( with own and particular rules between royal houses outside the states).
The states is a territorial entity, with a population and a political form,. A state can modify its political form, monarchy,or republic, but the Royal house can not be suppressed by a state because it is not competent. A state can grant legal effect to titles nobiliary or not.
The members of the Royal house of the hellenes, have the right among royal houses, among monarchists... to use their title nobilliary can even make use in other states that have recognized valid to titles, the International Olympic Committee has recognized efficacy to titles nobiliary (Constantine is identified as HM Constantine). In the Republics, nobiliary titles have no legal effect. The noble title of prince of Greece and Denmark, is not a state title, is a personal title, "of Denmark" , is competent the Royal House of Denmark, is a historical title, which serves to identify the male offsprings of King Christian.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Countessmeout and stef, Thank you for the numerous details of nobliary titles.

 

[RoyalJewelish]

And unless something changes Pavlos will be the last Crown Prince. His kids are simply Princes

No, the head of the house is always Crown Prince/Crown Princess after the passing of the previous Crown Prince/Crown Princess

 

[fandesacs2003]

No, the head of the house is always Crown Prince/Crown Princess after the passing of the previous Crown Prince/Crown Princess

I don't think so. Crown Prince is the one whose father has been king. Unless Pavlos become king, his old boy will be Prince. Look at the Habsburg. Archiduc Otto has been Crown Prince. His son is just Archiduc.
Other members feel free to agree or disagree

 

[RoyalJewelish]

I don't think so. Crown Prince is the one whose father has been king. Unless Pavlos become king, his old boy will be Prince. Look at the Habsburg. Archiduc Otto has been Crown Prince. His son is just Archiduc.
Other members feel free to agree or disagree

It depends really on whether they actually use it, either way the Head of the dynasty is still a Crown Prince/Crown Princess or holder of the title of heir of the country, like in Romania where Margareta is Crown Princess and her sister Princess Elena will also be Crown Princess or Montenegro where the head of the dynasty is also Crown Prince, yet his father wasn't a king, it's not necessarily about the parent being a monarch, it's a distinction of the head of the house and to show who is the heir to the throne

 

[M. Payton]

Question here, does the title *Crown Prince* get pasted on to the oldest son of the current crown prince? And if so, why? How can one be a crown prince of a country when there is no monarchy? I mean could this title go on forever? P/MC have children, will all their titles pass on to their children and so on?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Will future generations of the Greek Royal Family continue to have the title of Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark?

They are entitled to it because of an act passed in 1774 referring to descendants of Christian IX. [...]

That is not possible; Christian IX was not born until 1818, and he inherited the throne of Denmark in 1863.

How can one be a crown prince of a country when there is no monarchy?

The titles which are claimed by the family have no legal recognition in the state of Greece.

 

[Mbruno]

Will future generations of the Greek Royal Family continue to have the title of Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark?

I don't know about " of Greece", but my understanding is that all male line descendants of King Christian IX are " Princes of Denmark ". , except the descendants of King Christian X who are in the line of succession to the Danish throne and are therefore "Princes to Denmark". Instead.

 

[RoyalJewelish]

Question here, does the title *Crown Prince* get pasted on to the oldest son of the current crown prince? And if so, why? How can one be a crown prince of a country when there is no monarchy? I mean could this title go on forever? P/MC have children, will all their titles pass on to their children and so on?

The title of Crown Prince/Crown Princess is held by the head of the dynasty/royal family and their spouse, in the case of a Crown Princess in her own right, her husband would just be prince. Though there is no monarchy, there is still a royal family, they don't cease to be royal and obviously royalty have their titles

The title also shows that they are heir to the throne and distinct them from other Princes and Princesses in the Royal Family. With the Greek royal family, titles will most probably pass on onto children in the male line unless they change their cadet house laws similar to the Swedish ones.

 

[RoyalJewelish]

I don't know about " of Greece", but my understanding is that all male line descendants of King Christian IX are " Princes of Denmark ". , except the descendants of King Christian X who are in the line of succession to the Danish throne and are therefore "Princes to Denmark". Instead.

All members of the Greek royal family do and will always be titles Prince/Princess (name) of Greece and Denmark, even though they are in exile it doesn't mean they aren't prince and princess of that country, it's like saying they're just random princes and princesses out of the ordinary. Another reason for them using the 'of Greece' is because they are part of the Greek royal family and if they didn't use that they'd still have the Denmark title but they aren't members of the Danish royal family, although they are princes/princesses of the country if that makes sense

 

[Somebody]

In Germany they even use the title 'Fürst' for the head of the house and 'Erbprinz' for his heir, so using 'only' Crown prince is relatively modest.

I expect the Greek royal family to use Crown Prince as the name for the head of the house after the last king passes away (like other Balkan countries: Serbia, Montenegro and Albania); Romania seems to be the outlier where Margaretha calls herself 'Majesty' (although so far I haven't seen her referred to as Queen).

 

[RoyalJewelish]

In Germany they even use the title 'Fürst' for the head of the house and 'Erbprinz' for his heir, so using 'only' Crown prince is relatively modest.

I expect the Greek royal family to use Crown Prince as the name for the head of the house after the last king passes away (like other Balkan countries: Serbia, Montenegro and Albania); Romania seems to be the outlier where Margaretha calls herself 'Majesty' (although so far I haven't seen her referred to as Queen).

Yes in Germany the heirs of Sovereign Princes of the Principalities use the title of Fürst which means sovereign prince however that is titular and officially they are actually Erbprinz which means Hereditary Prince but the term 'Crown Prince/Princess is only used in kingdoms and empires, anything below uses hereditary Grand Duke, Duke, Prince, Count etc...

In the case of Romania which is the same as Russia, Austria, Germany, Greece, Yugoslavia, Montenegro and Albania the titular title of the head of the house is Empress/Emperor and King/Queen, as is the same in Romania, however Crown Princess Margareta is still officially Crown Princess, the Romanian royal house, government and public refer to her as Her Majesty Margareta, Custodian of the Crown which is a sort of signification that she is monarch but isn't. The Custodian of the Crown of Romania is a secondary title for the heir to the throne. When Margareta passes, Princess Elena will be Crown Princess of Romania as well as Custodian of the Crown of Romania but it is unclear as to whether she will choose to be referred like her predecessor or as Queen or as her official title which is crown princess

 

[Nikolopoulus]

The title of King is related to the throne. The throne is the Headquarters of the state, to obtain the title of King must be Head of State, the title is personal and will remain for life even if the state from which it comes disappears. The Crown Prince , demand that his father be or have been King. the children of the heirs are Princes.. A person who, having no throne, proclaims himself King or creates similar figures, it has not value, between Royal Houses,he /she is not king or Queen.