Rival Claimants to the French Throne 1: Ending 2020

[Warren]

And unless Two Sicilies not Bourbon? Unless this family does not occur from the French king Louis XIV and its grandson of the Spanish king Philippe V? Unless Duke of Calabria cannot be the successor of the French throne after Luis Alphonso and the Spanish king Juan Carlos?

Yes, the Two Sicilies are Bourbons (as are the Parmas), but far enough removed that we don't need to take them into calculation as potential successors unless there is a major dynastic catastrophe.

 

[magnik]

What I've read on An Online Gotha

"The headship of the Royal House of France is an interesting question. Leaving aside the dilemma caused by the Bonaparte claimant, who is clearly an heir to hereditary monarchs of two separate French Empires, the question of who is heir to the claim of the House of Capet, which ruled France for half the Christian era, is the subject of great dispute.
Probably the majority of French monarchists support the claims of the Orléanist line, headed by Henri, Comte de Paris, who has assumed the title "Duc de France". He is clearly the heir of Louis Philippe, King of the French, who ruled from 1830 to 1848. He is also the heir to the legitimist line of the House of Capet if the renunciation of King Felipe V of Spain to the French throne was valid. Eminent and learned scholars have argued that no such resignation was valid and that thus King Felipe's heir male inherited the Legitimist claim on the death of Henri V, so long, at least, as the claim is not united to another throne. The heir male of King Felipe is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón.
Since reasonable persons can make valid arguments in favor of either claimant, both will be presented here in this article. Furthermore, if Luis Alfonso is entitled to be considered a French dynast, then so are all the legitimate male-line descendants of King Felipe, and, indeed, of Hugues Capet (e.g., the Seville, Roccaguglielma, Galliera, and Infant Gabriel lines). For other apparent dynasts of the House of France, then, see the articles on Spain, Two Sicilies, Parma, Brazil and Luxemburg.
Historically, no such title existed as "Prince of France". The members of the Orléanist branch who are not products of morganatic marriages have been accorded the title of Prince[ss] d'Orléans, Royal Highness, unless other titles are shown and the children of the head and the heir apparent of that line have now been accorded the title Prince[ss] of France, Royal Highness."
http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/france.html

 

[magnik]

And here. Maybe you know that or maybe no but few info here http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/bourbon/france/frenlegt.htm

"The claim of Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon to be Head of the Royal House of Bourbon and representative of the Monarchy founded by Hugues Capet is based on the fact that he is the latter's senior male primogeniture heir by legitimate descent. He is a Roman Catholic, and a French citizen. The objectionss to his claim made by the Orléanists, simply stated are based on the renunciation of 1712-13 made by Philip V of Spain and their inclusion as a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht, and the foreign nationality of many of his ancestors. However (i) the renunciations of 1712-13 were void from the moment they were signed, and even the Treaty of Utrecht could not affect the Fundamental Laws (just as the Treaty of Troyes of 1420 could not do so) (ii) any possible validity of those renunciations was rendered void by (a) the failure of the reciprocal actions required under their terms [...] and (b) by the repeal of semi-Salic Law in Spain 1830/33, and (iii) the foreign nationality of intervening generations cannot stand in the path of a Dynast's succession any more than it can prevent a foreigner from inheriting a French title.[4] For these self-same reasons there was no impediment to the succession of the Infante Don Juan in 1883, nor of successive senior representatives of the House of Bourbon to the Headship of the Royal House of France. The Family of Orléans accordingly follows eventually in succession after the most junior members of the Family of Bourbon-Parma.
The heir of the Orléans family, then Count of Clermont (now Count of Paris) took action in the French courts to try and prevent the Head of the House of Bourbon using the title of Duke of Anjou and the plain Arms of France. He failed in his efforts to persuade the French Courts to support his case (see statement by the Secretariat of the Mgr Alphonse de Bourbon [...] More recently, on the death of the Count o Paris, the Duke of Anjou offered his personal condolences to the new Head of the Branch of Orléans, thus improving the relationship between the two lines which had been damaged by the earlier court case and other actions. The present Duke of Anjou is a frequent visitor to France and participates in many public functions, including attending as the guest of the French government the annual anniversary Mass of the foundation of the Les Invalides as the senior representative of Louis XIV. He is also a member of the French Society of the Cincinnati as the Representative of Louis XVI."

 

[Toledo]

Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.

 

[Warren]

Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.

So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.

 

[Stefan]

The next most senior male Bourbon after Luis Alfonso is none other than King Juan Carlos; the Prince of the Asturias is next, and after him the line goes back to the male issue of King Fernando VII, which brings us to Don Alfonso de Orléans-Bourbon y Ferrara-Pignatelli, 7th Duke of Galliera (b 1968), who is a descendant of Queen Victoria through his great-grandmother Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, Princess of Great Britain and Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

But there is no direct male line. The descendants of Isabel II. are the male line because she married her cousin, but her sister didn't so it is the female line from there one. After the prince of asturias should come the Duke of Sevilla.

 

[Russian]

Wait!
I once again have closely read through the document resulted by you on the French laws of inheritance of the French throne. Therefore I have some questions.
1) These laws exclude laws of succession of women on the French throne?
2) If grandson Louis XIV has borrowed the Spanish throne and could not apply simultaneously for the French crown on conditions of Utrecht contract, all the same new Spanish king from the French dynasty remains a member French Hugo Capet At home, all the same it kept the rights to the French throne, all the same its descendants are considered as members of Hugo Capet House and have the right to borrow the French throne?
3) the Spanish King Ferdinand has entered the so-called Pragmatical sanction in 1834 on which its daughter Isabella became the successor of the Spanish throne owing to absence of man's posterity at this Spanish king. But unless it did not contradict the French laws?
4) Why carlist supporters considered the Pragmatical sanction as infringement of laws of inheritance of a throne?
5) why carlist supporters lifted revolts against queen Isabella with the purpose to protect the rights carlist applicants for the Spanish throne?
6) whether carlist applicants for the Spanish throne have been recognized Le Comte Chambord as successors of the French throne in 1883?
7) why Luis Alphonco it is considered chapter Hugo Capet of the House, in fact it is the lineal descendant of queen Isabella?

I shall be glad, if you will answer me these questions in the same sequence, beginning from the first and finishing the last.

 

[Toledo]

So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.

I saw the pictures in Point de Vue of that event. Maybe is to psyche Luis Alfonso out and make feel unwelcome in France? After all, he was the one that took main stage on the pictures involving the restoration/recognition of the heart of Louis XVII, the child heir of the last 18th century King and Marie Antoinette. So, the Orleans could be trying to save face by slapping Luis Alfonso's with the title thing. Kind of childish when you think about it. And the family feud goes to all branches because the Orleans were partisans of King Juan Carlos over the Duke of Cadiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who by then was considered the senior male of the senior Bourbon line, not seen with good eyes by any other branch that disputed his legitimacy...namely the Orleans again.

But the interesting thing is that Luis Alfonso, who lost his father and older brother in horrendous accidents, does not seem to care much about their opinion. Live and let live but he is the only one making an attempt to find some peace within this family. You know that when he was invited to the wedding of Felipe and Letizia this was to be the event to introduce his girlfriend to the family and he was limited to one seat, no guests. Once more, kind of childish when you think about it.

 

[magnik]

Maybe you find some more info here, Russian and fellows:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/
http://library.byu.edu/%7Erdh/eurodocs/france.html

(Many links on French.)

 

[sirmax]

According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right

 

[Warren]

According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right

For the Orléanists, the Comte de Paris is indeed the rightful claimant, being the direct descendant of the last King of the French, Louis-Philippe.
Of course the Bonapartists have their Pretender, Prince Charles Napoleon, as do the legitimists, who support Luis Alfonso.
It's a three-horse race with the finish line nowhere in sight.

 

[Beatrice]

Magnik the info you posted is treasure.

 

[Henri M.]

It is not so complicated at all.

The straight line of direct male hereditary successors from Louis XIV became extinct in 1883 with the death of the Comte de Chambord.

The inheritance of the throne of France logically should have gone to the most senior closest male in the House of Bourbon.
And that was the Infante Carlos of Spain, Conde de Montizon.

But... but... but...

A grandson of Louis XIV (the second son of the Dauphin), the Duc d'Anjou, became King of Spain. Having a Bourbon king on both the French and Spanish thrones disturbed the balance of power in Europe and a Grand Alliance of European nations united against this. As a result the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 was agreed, meaning that the Duc d'Anjou and his hereditary successors and their descendants lost their claim on the throne of France for ever.

Because of this, the -logical- most senior Bourbon line in Spain had to be ignored and the second senior line, the Orléans (descending from Louis XIV's younger brother the Duc d'Orléans) became the rightful claimants on the throne of France.

The supporters of the Anjou line stress the seniority of his bloodline but 'forget' the Treaty of Utrecht.
The supporters of the Orléans line accept the seniority of the Anjou line but point to the Treaty of Utrecht.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou sees himself as the most senior of all Bourbons and therefore King of France and Spain, neglecting the Treaty of Utrecht.
Henri de Bourbon de Orléans sees himself as the rightful King of France pointing to the Treaty of Utrecht which excludes the Spanish branch.
Juan Carlos de Borbón sees himself as the rightful Spanish King, neglecting the Anjou claim that he is not the most senior male, due to his descendance from Queen Isabel II of Spain.

 

[Russian]

Excuse me, but I have questions. Really legitimists and orleanists cannot come to the compromise agreement concerning the successor of the French crown? What were conditions of Utrecht contract concerning the Spanish and French crowns? Tell, please, refusal of Felipe V the French crown extends only on the subsequent Spanish kings and their successors or on all Spanish royal family?

 

[Sancia]

There won't be any compromise agreement between the pretenders and their supporters. Noone of the supporters of both side would accept it.

 

[Russian]

What French monarchists in the numerical majority - legitimists or orleanists?

 

[Next Star]

Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.

 

[richardsw]

What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?

 

[Russian]

What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?

Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor. As to Orleans, I think, someone should be one of numerous descendants of 11 children of the previous Parisian count. If Luis Alphonso will be the father only girls or remains childless, I think, someone from Spanish (either from Parma, or from Sicilian) relatives becomes legitimist pretendent on the French throne.

 

[kelly9480]

Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor.

According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.

 

[Russian]

According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.

As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.

 

[Sancia]

As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.

As long as Jean-Christophe is alive and able to have a descendancy, it is pointless to discuss of Jérôme like heir of the Bonaparte family.

 

[Sancia]

Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.

You are right in theory. But when there are several pretenders, we use the term heir where we would use pretender in other cases. And then we use the term pretender to call one of the people pretending to be the heir.
For example, their is a pretender to the throne of Prussia, but for France or Italy there are two potentials heirs, who are called pretenders. The count of Paris claims he's the heir because he believes his branch, and not Luis Alfonso's one, is the one who should inherit the french throne if monarchy was reinstated. I think we can use the term heir for such cases as there is a disput about the owners of heritage of the late kings.

 

[Warren]

Thanks for the explanation Danielane.

To avoid the thread being sidetracked into an argument over semantics, we'll leave further discussion of the use of these words to another time, and another place.

I'll just point out that the thread title came from a question posed by a member who created the original thread (into which other posts have been merged).
As most people appear to understand the meaning and intent of the question, no change is required.

Warren
Non-Reigning Houses moderator

 

[bleu roi]

First post. Can anyone tell me how the Maison de Savoie fits into the French succession issue, if at all? Forgive my ignorance, but various people appear on FRENCH TV who are all presented as successors; recently a member of the Savoie branch was introduced as such... (maybe wrongly)

 

[Warren]

The French succession concerns three families: The Orléans, the Bonapartes, and the Bourbons (in the person of Luis Alfonso).
The Royal House of Savoy, which is the former reigning House of the Kingdom of Italy, doesn't enter into it.

 

[Next Star]

I wonder who would be King of France if the monarchy were to be rstored and also who would be the heir ? And if they would allow both male and female descents to be in the line of succession to the throne.

 

[Avalon]

That's the whole point of this thread's disscusion.
There are two Pretenders to the French Throne.

One of them is Comte de Paris, the other is the so-called Spanish line.
After the death of the childless legitimist pretender "Henry V", Comte de Chambord (grandson of King Charles X of France), most accepted his selection of the heir, the Orleanist Pretender, Comte de Paris (grandson of King Louis-Phillipe (he descends from the second son of King Louis XIII). Few, however argue that the rightful descendant is the descendant of Louis XIV (Spanish line).

The point of the argument is that Prince Philip (King Philip V of Spain) renounced any claims (including future) to the French throne, upon becoming the King of Spain. Therefore the Dukes of Orleans were recognized as the rightul heirs (after the direct line) before the French Revolution. The opposite group says that this renunciation was invalid and impossible (some also point that Philippe Egalite and Louis-Philippe forfeited any rights to the throne for disloyalty during the FR).

 

[ysbel]

How is Louis Alphonse senior to Juan Carlos in the French succession?

 

[Sancia]

How is Louis Alphonse senior to Juan Carlos in the French succession?

His grandfather was older than Juan Carlos's father, but he had to give up his rights due to health problems (he was deaf).