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  #1181  
Old 11-12-2019, 09:28 AM
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Ha, if they want to wait 30 or 40 years before making a decision, the only option will be adoption of a male from the former branches. Because by then, all the current Princesses will either have left the Imperial Family or they will be too old to still get married and start a family.

Imo, they need to allow the Princesses to stay working members of the Imperial family now, so that in the future Prince Hisahito will have the support of his sisters and his cousin, without preventing them from getting married and starting a family. Once that is done, they can postpone further decisions till it becomes clear weather Hisahito will have sons or not.
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  #1182  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:49 AM
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Conservatives submit ex-imperial member restoration proposal to Abe - Kyodo News
Quote:
A conservative group within Japan's ruling party on Tuesday submitted to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe a proposal to allow men from now-abolished collateral branches of the imperial family to rejoin it, as part of measures to ensure stable succession.

[...] the Liberal Democratic Party group called for enabling unmarried male members of the former branches to join the imperial family through adoption or marriage, if they want to.

The group led by House of Councillors member Shigeharu Aoyama sought the creation of a special law to bring back members of the 11 collateral branches that left the imperial family in 1947. [...]

But the idea has not widely been supported by the public, with a majority of respondents being in favor of allowing women to succeed to the throne in opinion polls. The imperial family and the former collateral branches share a common ancestor some 600 years ago.

[...]

The group also presented a negative view on allowing women to retain status as imperial family members after marriage, arguing it could lead to a first-ever "emperor of female lineage," whose father's side of the family is not of imperial ancestry.

[...]
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  #1183  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:14 AM
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Abe said more work is needed in spreading awareness among people about the difference between a female emperor and an emperor of matrilineage, whose father's side of the family is not of imperial ancestry.
Traditionalists keep saying this, but what exactly do they believe the majority of people are unaware of? Why do they see people with a differing opinion as ignorant or uneducated?
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  #1184  
Old 11-19-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Traditionalists keep saying this, but what exactly do they believe the majority of people are unaware of? Why do they see people with a differing opinion as ignorant or uneducated?
Because to them it is perfectly obvious that women are inferior and subordinate, and anyone who disagrees with that viewpoint must therefore be in need of being instructed. What is so striking about this attitude is how much at odds it is with the results of polling of the general public in Japan.
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  #1185  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Traditionalists keep saying this, but what exactly do they believe the majority of people are unaware of? Why do they see people with a differing opinion as ignorant or uneducated?
Because they know they are right.

It's not a question as to whether they feel or believe they are right. They know!

And the masses are not stupid, but merely misinformed, misguided and too often indifferent. The people are in need of a firm, but patriotic and selfless hand - i.e. the traditionalists.
Who, from a moral highground and from a deep, unself-serving love for Japan and the Japanese people and not least the ancient Japanese culture, can lead the people on a patriotic path towards a brighter future for Japan. To restore the traditional values in Japan, just as they were in the old days, were there was order, and a clear system going through the society. Where everyone know their place - and that, let us be honest, is the stage where most are most happy.
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  #1186  
Old 11-26-2019, 03:26 AM
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LDP heavyweight floats approving emperor from female lineage: The Asahi Shimbun
Quote:
Emperors should be allowed to come from the imperial family's female line, a Liberal Democratic Party heavyweight suggested, who is a close ally of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

Breaking from the Abe administration, which insists only a male descendant from the family's male line can ascend to the Chrysanthemum Throne, Akira Amari proposed allowing a matrilineal emperor.

To ensure a stable imperial succession, Amari said on Nov. 24, “We should set the line of succession primarily among descendants in the male line.”

But he added, “Still, we should ultimately approve of the female line as an option.”

[...]

Amari said those in the male line should still get priority to succeed the emperor, but stressed the importance of being prepared to cope with any situation.

[...]
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  #1187  
Old 11-29-2019, 03:48 AM
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Some LDP Execs Sound Ready to Accept Emperors from Maternal Line | Nippon.com
Quote:
Liberal Democratic Party Secretary-General Toshihiro Nikai suggested Tuesday that he would not necessarily oppose children of Imperial Family women ascending the throne.

A similar view was expressed by the Japanese ruling party's tax panel chief, Akira Amari, close to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, on television Sunday.

The remarks by the two party executives are expected to have repercussions within the LDP, whose conservative members stick to the current system allowing only male descendants in the Imperial Family's paternal line to succeed to the throne.

[...]
Let will of the people decide succession issue | The Japan Times
Quote:
[...] The number one reason that discussions on the matter do not move forward is that questions related to the Constitution and historical matters have not been separated. The Constitution says in Article 9 that the emperor “shall be the symbol of the state and of the unity of the people, deriving his position from the will of the people with whom resides sovereign power.” In short, the emperor’s position is determined by the will of the people, irrespective of the historical background of the imperial system.

[...] Based on the will of the people, the government effectively revised the Imperial House Law — by enacting special one-off legislation — to pave the way for Emperor Akihito to retire. In this way, the latest imperial succession was carried out without a hitch in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.

The same logic applies to the question of imperial succession rules. Recent opinion surveys indicate that people are generally supportive of the creation of female-led imperial houses as well as allowing a reigning empress and succession on the maternal lineage.

[...]

These issues surrounding the imperial family under the Constitution on one hand, and the historical issue of exploring the roles played by the emperor system in Japanese history on the other, are subjects of entirely different dimensions.

If we follow the majority views of scholars, the origin of emperors (who can be traced with certainty) dates back to Emperor Keitai, who is believed to have ascended the throne in 507. It was when Empress Jito took the throne in 686 that the country started using the title “tenno” (emperor). She is considered to have become the model of Amaterasu Omikami, the mythical deity believed to be the direct ancestor to Japan’s emperors.

What this means is that the imperial family traces its origin to Amaterasu, a woman. [...]

Indeed, Japan has had eight reigning empresses (two of whom ascended the throne twice) — up until the late 18th century, during the Edo Period. Some of the emperors in our history are believed to have come from the maternal lineage of the imperial family — although the views of scholars are divided on the matter. The question of whether they had indeed been on the paternal or maternal lineage should be subject to purely academic study by scholars. That is an issue independent from the imperial system as defined under the postwar Constitution. We must not forget that.

Of course, each individual is free to take the historical background into account. Irrespective of whether the emperors in Japan’s history were 100 percent on the paternal lines of the family — or whether there were indeed emperors on the maternal lineage — it is only the will of the people that can determine the position of the emperor. This is the core of issue over imperial succession rules.
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  #1188  
Old 12-07-2019, 04:39 AM
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Japan postpones debate on imperial succession as divide surfaces - Kyodo News
Quote:
[...] Sources close to the matter recently said that as Crown Prince Fumihito is scheduled to announce himself to be first in line to the throne in a ceremony on April 19, the government plans to start the debate after the event to avoid a worsening divide within the ruling Liberal Democratic Party.

[...]

Some opposition parties have proposed tolerating succession by women or by members in the maternal line, while a group within the LDP adamant about sticking to the patrilineal succession has urged Prime Minister Shinzo Abe not to break the centuries-old tradition.

But Akira Amari, a senior LDP lawmaker, said during a TV program aired Nov. 24 that succession by members in the matrilineage "should be tolerated as a last option" after placing members in the patrilineage before them in the order of succession.

[...]

Amari's remarks were followed by LDP Secretary General Toshihiro Nikai's that was also widely seen as supporting a new style of succession as he has previously mentioned tolerating female emperors.

"As we bear in mind the equality of men and women and the democratic society, the conclusion is obvious," Nikai said at a press conference on Nov. 26.

The government initially planned to set up a panel to debate the future of the imperial succession after Emperor Naruhito completed Daijosai last month [...]
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  #1189  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:59 AM
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Ah, trying to cover the cracks on this issue within the government coalition.
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  #1190  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:21 AM
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But I am sure Hisahito will ascend the throne after his uncle.
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  #1191  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Ah, trying to cover the cracks on this issue within the government coalition.
Seems overly scrupulous from Mr. Abe's side. Two senior party members being minimally more flexible than he is in their commitment to male-only inheritance, and one of them subsequently backing away from his comments, is not exactly a battle for the soul of the party.

I wonder why he allegedly believes that scheduling the talks after the Crown Prince's investiture will cause them to go more smoothly for him. Is the sight of a man leading the pomp and ceremony expected to make it clear to all LDP members watching it that only men are acceptable in the role?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
But I am sure Hisahito will ascend the throne after his uncle.
Do you foresee the Crown Prince resigning his rights? Otherwise, with the Emperor being five years older than his brother, it seems likely that Fumihito will reign before Hisahito.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisma View Post
Let will of the people decide succession issue | The Japan Times


[...] The number one reason that discussions on the matter do not move forward is that questions related to the Constitution and historical matters have not been separated. The Constitution says in Article 9 that the emperor “shall be the symbol of the state and of the unity of the people, deriving his position from the will of the people with whom resides sovereign power.” In short, the emperor’s position is determined by the will of the people, irrespective of the historical background of the imperial system.

[...] Based on the will of the people, the government effectively revised the Imperial House Law — by enacting special one-off legislation — to pave the way for Emperor Akihito to retire. In this way, the latest imperial succession was carried out without a hitch in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.

The same logic applies to the question of imperial succession rules. Recent opinion surveys indicate that people are generally supportive of the creation of female-led imperial houses as well as allowing a reigning empress and succession on the maternal lineage.

[...]

These issues surrounding the imperial family under the Constitution on one hand, and the historical issue of exploring the roles played by the emperor system in Japanese history on the other, are subjects of entirely different dimensions.

If we follow the majority views of scholars, the origin of emperors (who can be traced with certainty) dates back to Emperor Keitai, who is believed to have ascended the throne in 507. It was when Empress Jito took the throne in 686 that the country started using the title “tenno” (emperor). She is considered to have become the model of Amaterasu Omikami, the mythical deity believed to be the direct ancestor to Japan’s emperors.

What this means is that the imperial family traces its origin to Amaterasu, a woman. [...]

Indeed, Japan has had eight reigning empresses (two of whom ascended the throne twice) — up until the late 18th century, during the Edo Period. Some of the emperors in our history are believed to have come from the maternal lineage of the imperial family — although the views of scholars are divided on the matter. The question of whether they had indeed been on the paternal or maternal lineage should be subject to purely academic study by scholars. That is an issue independent from the imperial system as defined under the postwar Constitution. We must not forget that.

Of course, each individual is free to take the historical background into account. Irrespective of whether the emperors in Japan’s history were 100 percent on the paternal lines of the family — or whether there were indeed emperors on the maternal lineage — it is only the will of the people that can determine the position of the emperor. This is the core of issue over imperial succession rules.
Thank you for sharing this very insightful editorial. It raises an excellent question which I have rarely seen debated: Who should choose the rules of the monarchy? The majority of the voting public (many of whom are apathetic to imperial issues), or the small and select group of people (consisting mainly of nationalists) who have strong interests in imperial issues? The same question could be asked in other constitutional monarchies which exist within a democratic system.
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  #1192  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Seems overly scrupulous from Mr. Abe's side. Two senior party members being minimally more flexible than he is in their commitment to male-only inheritance, and one of them subsequently backing away from his comments, is not exactly a battle for the soul of the party.

I wonder why he allegedly believes that scheduling the talks after the Crown Prince's investiture will cause them to go more smoothly for him. Is the sight of a man leading the pomp and ceremony expected to make it clear to all LDP members watching it that only men are acceptable in the role?

Thank you for sharing this very insightful editorial. It raises an excellent question which I have rarely seen debated: Who should choose the rules of the monarchy? The majority of the voting public (many of whom are apathetic to imperial issues), or the small and select group of people (consisting mainly of nationalists) who have strong interests in imperial issues? The same question could be asked in other constitutional monarchies which exist within a democratic system.
(Shortened by me.)

Who knows what logic applies in the head of PM Abe. Not only in this issue...

The public. No doubt about that. The monarchies exist because of the public, for the public.
The nationalists would much prefer an Imperial Family that is seen but not heard. A living symbol that can be interpreted and utilized the way the nationalists see fit.
- And we all know how well that went, the last time that policy was carried out...
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  #1193  
Old 01-05-2020, 02:04 AM
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Japan starts study on imperial succession amid ruling-party division over allowing women to take the throne | The Japan Times
Quote:
The government has started an informal study on ways to ensure stable imperial succession amid a dearth of male heirs by conducting hearings with experts behind the scenes, according to government sources.

[...]

The officials are believed to be asking the experts about their views mainly on whether to allow women or heirs in the maternal line of the imperial family to assume the throne, in line with a proposal put forward by an expert panel commissioned by the government of former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

The hearings apparently also cover the idea of restoring imperial family status to those who left the family soon after the end of World War II and whether female members of the imperial family should be allowed to maintain their status as family members after marriage by heading family branches.

[...]

Members of Abe’s ruling Liberal Democratic Party are divided on the issue. Conservative members who support Abe call for maintaining the current rule of allowing only male offspring in the imperial family’s paternal line to assume the throne. They are also encouraging the government to create legislation to allow former imperial family members to be reinstated.

By contrast, LDP Secretary-General Toshihiro Nikai and other party members who keep distance from the conservative members have not ruled out the option of allowing anyone in the family’s maternal line to take the throne, from the viewpoint of equal rights for both sexes.

[...]
Japan Starts Informal Study on Stable Imperial Succession - JIJI PRESS
Quote:
[...]

The government is expected to begin full-scale debates, including by establishing an expert panel, after the "Rikkoshi-no-Rei" ceremony on April 19 for Crown Prince Akishino, the younger brother of Emperor Naruhito, to proclaim his rise to first in line to the throne.

Currently, Deputy Chief Cabinet Secretary Kazuhiro Sugita is leading the informal work to prepare for stable Imperial succession.

According to the sources, the government has already dispatched personnel to multiple experts, young and old, gather opinions.

[...]
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  #1194  
Old 01-05-2020, 04:35 AM
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What has happened to these former branches?

And will they even be interested in being restored to royal status?
Not to mention whether the public will accept these "now" commoners? - Especially if there are female alternatives in perfect working order.
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  #1195  
Old 01-05-2020, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
What has happened to these former branches?
Are you inquiring whether any of them have male descendants? Prisma translated some information from Japanese Wikipedia in this post: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2206360


Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
And will they even be interested in being restored to royal status?
This article says that certain members of the commoner branches are indeed hoping for the opportunity to become royals. I'm not sure what the source is for that statement, but the article quotes various sources elsewhere.

New Era, New Rules for the Imperial Bloodline? - Tokyo Review



Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Not to mention whether the public will accept these "now" commoners? - Especially if there are female alternatives in perfect working order.
The public accepted commoners into the imperial family in the cases of Crown Princess Michiko, Crown Princess Masako, etc. I suppose the question is whether they would be equally accepting if the commoner entered the imperial family as a prince of the blood and potential emperor, rather than as a consort.
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  #1196  
Old 01-05-2020, 05:56 AM
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Thanks.

No, I mean what are they doing for a living now?

In a deeply hierarchical society as the Japanese that's not without relevance.
Nor is it without relevance if they or those they work with or for have been controversial. Especially as the court goes to extraordinary lengths to keep the Imperial Family clean.

- And in that context, increasing the number of royals, means having to manage more people and also keep them occupied and out of mischief.
Having a total number of royals below twenty, as is, is manageable. Provided at least five are in the line of succession.
So the proposal by the conservatives in the Abe administration may open up more problems than they solve.
That is: They will get a male heir (or in this case male spares) but they will also get the families of those spares. All of whom are people, who have not grown up within a court with strict rules - so some of them may very well be more inclined to rebel against what to them is an unused confinement.
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  #1197  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thanks.

No, I mean what are they doing for a living now?

In a deeply hierarchical society as the Japanese that's not without relevance.
Nor is it without relevance if they or those they work with or for have been controversial. Especially as the court goes to extraordinary lengths to keep the Imperial Family clean.

- And in that context, increasing the number of royals, means having to manage more people and also keep them occupied and out of mischief.
Having a total number of royals below twenty, as is, is manageable. Provided at least five are in the line of succession.
So the proposal by the conservatives in the Abe administration may open up more problems than they solve.
That is: They will get a male heir (or in this case male spares) but they will also get the families of those spares. All of whom are people, who have not grown up within a court with strict rules - so some of them may very well be more inclined to rebel against what to them is an unused confinement.

That's an excellent point. We have learned (from the still suspended engagement of Mako and Kei) that the general public, the government, the imperial family, and the imperial household agency can all agree that a debt dispute between the mother and former "stepfather" of the husband of the non-royal daughter of the crown prince would unacceptably tarnish the image of the monarchy.

But how many private citizens (male-line descendants or not) would be able to prove that each of the parents of each of the spouses of each of their siblings have never been implicated in a domestic argument with a former partner (or worse)?
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  #1198  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thanks.

No, I mean what are they doing for a living now?

In a deeply hierarchical society as the Japanese that's not without relevance.
Nor is it without relevance if they or those they work with or for have been controversial. Especially as the court goes to extraordinary lengths to keep the Imperial Family clean.

- And in that context, increasing the number of royals, means having to manage more people and also keep them occupied and out of mischief.
Having a total number of royals below twenty, as is, is manageable. Provided at least five are in the line of succession.
So the proposal by the conservatives in the Abe administration may open up more problems than they solve.
That is: They will get a male heir (or in this case male spares) but they will also get the families of those spares. All of whom are people, who have not grown up within a court with strict rules - so some of them may very well be more inclined to rebel against what to them is an unused confinement.
Funny. Main problem was lack of princes/princesses. You found new one!

All Japanese are used to follow rules and protocols. it is integral part of their culture.
Many members of these former branches were invited to enthronement ceremony, and attend other informal events at the palace.

Closest potential heirs from former branches are current Emperor's first cousins and their descendants. They are more close relatives then Mikasa and Takamado princesses (second cousins).
The eldest cousin recently died (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuhiko_Higashikuni). He had one son and two grandsons.
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  #1199  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:58 AM
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Next first cousin (younger brother of Nobuhiko Higashikuni) is chairman of Yamashina Institute for Ornithology Mibu Motohiro Chairman | Yamashina Institute for Ornithology. He has two sons.
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  #1200  
Old 01-05-2020, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
Funny. Main problem was lack of princes/princesses. You found new one!

All Japanese are used to follow rules and protocols. it is integral part of their culture.
Many members of these former branches were invited to enthronement ceremony, and attend other informal events at the palace.

Closest potential heirs from former branches are current Emperor's first cousins and their descendants. They are more close relatives then Mikasa and Takamado princesses (second cousins).
The eldest cousin recently died (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuhiko_Higashikuni). He had one son and two grandsons.
Oh, it's one thing to attend ceremonies and be invited to the palace. It's another matter to become an integral part of it.
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