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  #161  
Old 11-01-2020, 08:55 AM
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Curious. W-A was in the armed forces for more than a year, right? So longer that the expected year-long-conscription period.
So if her father could do so, without having any plans to make it a profession, then Amalia could do so too. Perhaps after college/uni?
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  #162  
Old 11-01-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But why does he not wear this special Uniform for Events like Prinsjesdag. Because he then actasas Partof the Government`?
It is not at all forbidden as gentlemen can choose between formal civil wear (jacquet) and military grand tenue. But the King has chosen to wear uniforms for military engagements. The Joint Assembly of the States-General is a civil engagement.

In my opinion the Armed Forces are a part of society and I would like to see the King wearing an uniform indeed. For an example, a few years ago the Korps Mariniers was 350 years. One of the oldest marine corps in the world. It would be nice to see the King wearing his naval tenue indeed, at Prinsjesdag 2015 for an example:

"Members of the States-General, no less than 350 years ago, on December 10th 1665, your States-General agreed to establish a Marine Corps, which has developed into one of the elite units of our Armed Forces with name and fame. [...]"
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  #163  
Old 11-02-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SLV View Post
Curious. W-A was in the armed forces for more than a year, right? So longer that the expected year-long-conscription period.
So if her father could do so, without having any plans to make it a profession, then Amalia could do so too. Perhaps after college/uni?
Mandatory conscription ended in 1997. Before 1997 any men over the age of 18 were expected to do military service. WA was following the law of the land. He trained actively for 17 months, and was considered a reservist until before he took the throne. Then as head of the government, he had to leave all his military posts behind.

Since 1997 the Netherlands has chosen to focus on a 'professional military'. Meaning encouraging only people looking for a career in the military, to join.


The suggestion that she could 'do a gap year and perhaps join a calvary unit as she likes horses' is the very opposite of the Dutch army goals.
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  #164  
Old 11-02-2020, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Mandatory conscription ended in 1997. Before 1997 any men over the age of 18 were expected to do military service. WA was following the law of the land. He trained actively for 17 months, and was considered a reservist until before he took the throne. Then as head of the government, he had to leave all his military posts behind.

Since 1997 the Netherlands has chosen to focus on a 'professional military'. Meaning encouraging only people looking for a career in the military, to join.


The suggestion that she could 'do a gap year and perhaps join a calvary unit as she likes horses' is the very opposite of the Dutch army goals.
The Duchess of Brabant is doing a "gap year" as well as she only follows a special program during one year and not at all the full four years leading to an assignment as an officer. After all also Belgium has ended conscription.

For the Princess of Orange and the Duchess of Brabant such a "gap year" is the only possibility as the alternative is a professional career in the Armed Forces, which is no option for them.

By the way, like in the United Kingdom, the mounted cavalry regiments in the Netherlands are tank battalions and reconnaissance squadrons in daily life with ceremonial duties. At this very moment there is a large military exercise in the Netherlands, Defender Europe 2020, with masses of armoured vehicles crossing towards the Baltic States. The Dutch deployment is the same regiment which is responsible for the ceremonial mounted escortes at royal engagements. In Denmark both Princes have joined the Life Guards, the equivalent.
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  #165  
Old 11-02-2020, 06:06 PM
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But Belgium is not the Netherlands... It seems that the military tradition (compare for example the Dutch and the Belgian national days) is much more alive in Belgium than in the Netherlands. And the Belgian Sovereign is still at the head of the Armed Forces while the Dutch monarch is not.
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  #166  
Old 11-02-2020, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I understand your first point, but if the letter merely stated that the recipient is not compelled to report for military service, then it would not be telling the recipient what (not) to do. The comparable situation would be a letter telling the recipient their attendance at large gatherings is no longer compulsory (as opposed to a mandate that avoiding large gatherings is compulsory). Only if the letter instructed the recipient to avoid volunteering for military service would volunteering for military service be doing the opposite of what is told.
I already agreed the comparison didn't fully capture the situation but I wasn't able to come up with a better example . Yours doesn't work fully either as it is not that it is not only that it is no longer compulsory but that it is no longer possible to serve as a conscript. It was never about whether someone wanted to 'volunteer' for military service. It was about all 17-year olds receiving a letter that they are being registered without the possibility to serve as a conscript (hopefully forever but at least for the time being).

The main argument all of this started with (and I have no wish to prolong the discussion but didn't want to leave you hanging either) was that Amalia SHOULD train at the army because she is expected to live an exemplary life, so that was presented to be the only appropriate response to this specific letter. That was the part I was contesting: if someone is told something no longer exists the correct response is not to do something related but slightly different and present that as 'being exemplary'. The correct response is to take note and that's all.

Whether Amalia or any other person in the Netherlands would like to become part of the professional army is up to them but not what this letter is about.

Quote:
I see, thanks. Then, if I understand correctly, the official policy is that citizens who are uninterested in a lengthy military career are now discouraged from enrolling for shorter stints in order not to divert resources from professional soldiers?
In general I would say 'yes', if someone does not have the intention to be in the military, it would not be encouraged to still take military training (and it will be really hard to 'get into'). In fact, to be accepted into the officer training (which would be the level Amalia would apply to if she would be interested based on her VWO-diploma) you need to first apply for an officer job and be selected for that job before you may start your officer training!

Their website states:
Quote:
To be able to follow a course at the Netherlands Defense Academy (NLDA), you must first apply for an officer position at the Ministry of Defense. Defense sets requirements for your prior education. These depend on the job you are applying for.

When you apply and meet the requirements, you will receive an invitation. The Recruitment and Selection department checks whether you are suitable. They do this through various inspections: medical, sports and psychological. A number of discussions will also follow about why you would like to work for Defense. After this, the Ministry of Defense checks when a candidate starts the training.
Source: Defensieacademie

In someway it could be compared to preferring people who truly want to become doctors to take up a medical study. Given that the number of spots is limited, it would be preferable if Amalia would not take up one of those spots as she will not serve as a doctor - and someone else who would truly like to be a doctor would be prevented from following that career path.

N.B. Learned something new myself as well by diving deeper into these issues :)
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  #167  
Old 11-02-2020, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Duchess of Brabant is doing a "gap year" as well as she only follows a special program during one year and not at all the full four years leading to an assignment as an officer. After all also Belgium has ended conscription.

For the Princess of Orange and the Duchess of Brabant such a "gap year" is the only possibility as the alternative is a professional career in the Armed Forces, which is no option for them.

By the way, like in the United Kingdom, the mounted cavalry regiments in the Netherlands are tank battalions and reconnaissance squadrons in daily life with ceremonial duties. At this very moment there is a large military exercise in the Netherlands, Defender Europe 2020, with masses of armoured vehicles crossing towards the Baltic States. The Dutch deployment is the same regiment which is responsible for the ceremonial mounted escortes at royal engagements. In Denmark both Princes have joined the Life Guards, the equivalent.
And as you are aware Belgium and the Netherlands are two very different countries. With two different approaches to their military.


As pointed out Elisabeth will be the Commander in chief (yes its an honorary we all know this). Catharina Amalia's will only be one member of the government who over sees the Dutch army. Therefore there is a very different perception of what experience a monarch should or should not have.


Elisabeth didn't join the army. She is simply taking a year's education at the military academy. This is an option available in Belgium. This is similar to what others like Victoria have done. Not actually serve in the armed forces, but receive some education/training.

The Dutch army as seems need to be repeated, does not have that option. They have made it clear for 23 years they are only interested in investing in people looking to make a career out of it. A princess taking a 'gap year' is not a career military. Now if she was actually wishing to serve, and like say Harry and William, wanted to spend some years in active duty military that would be another matter.
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  #168  
Old 11-02-2020, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
- But back to Dutch Civil Defense. With no conscription presumably that's an all volunteer force today?
Could she do a stint there?
As a 'Reservist' you will need to commit to a certain number of hours per week or a few days per month. Depending on the type of reservist job you'll need a limited amount of military training or a bit more. Also in this case, Amalia would need to apply for a specific 'job' to be accepted as a 'Reservist'.

I guess she could decide to do so and quit after a year or 2 but I don't think that would be appreciated. That's why imho the most logical option -if she and her father deem it necessary that she gets some military experience- would be a part-time master in military strategy. At that level she can truly understand what the military is about with a direct relevance to her future position.
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  #169  
Old 11-02-2020, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
In general I would say 'yes', if someone does not have the intention to be in the military, it would not be encouraged to still take military training (and will be really hard to 'get in'). In fact, to be accepted into the officer training (which would be the level Amalia would apply to if she would be interested based on her VWO-diploma) you need to first apply to a military job and be selected for that job before you may start your officer training!

Their website states:

Source: Defensieacademie

In someway it could be compared to preferring people who truly want to become doctors to take up a medical study. Given that the number of spots is limited, it would be preferable if Amalia would not take up one of those spots as she will not serve as a doctor - and someone else who would truly like to be a doctor would be prevented from following that career path.
Thank you for the information!

I wonder whether it would make a difference in either scenario that she is the crown princess. They might consider the potential for the military/medical profession to capitalize on the heir for recruitment and publicity and the arguable need for the future head of state to educate herself about sectors of society.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I already agreed the comparison didn't fully capture the situation but I wasn't able to come up with a better example. Yours doesn't work either as it is not that it is not only that it is no longer compulsory but that it is no longer possible to serve as a conscript. It was never about whether someone wanted to 'volunteer' for military service. It was about all 17-year olds receiving a letter that they are being registered without the possibility to serve as a conscript (hopefully forever but at least for the time being).
I probably ought to clarify that I have not looked for information regarding the Dutch military and was only responding to the statements here. Because "conscription" is, by definition, not voluntary, I did not read the comments about the abolition of conscription to mean that it was impossible to voluntarily join the army at age 17.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The main argument all of this started with (and I have no wish to prolong the discussion but didn't want to leave you hanging either) was that Amalia SHOULD train at the army because she is expected to live an exemplary life, so that was presented to be the only appropriate response to this specific letter. That was the part I was contesting: if someone is told something no longer exists the correct response is not to do something related but slightly different and present that as 'being exemplary'. The correct response is to take note and that's all.

Whether Amalia or any other person in the Netherlands would like to become part of the professional army is up to them but not what this letter is about.
Thank you for clarifying, I see now where you were coming from. My reading of the comments regarding possible military service was that it was not suggested as a response to the letter (which would indeed be illogical) but for the sake of military service per se.
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  #170  
Old 11-02-2020, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
And as you are aware Belgium and the Netherlands are two very different countries. With two different approaches to their military.

As pointed out Elisabeth will be the Commander in chief (yes its an honorary we all know this). Catharina Amalia's will only be one member of the government who over sees the Dutch army. Therefore there is a very different perception of what experience a monarch should or should not have.
Are there surveys or other indicators of discrepancies in public perceptions in the two countries on the basis of their technical constitutional differences, or is it possible that Princess Elisabeth or her parents and advisers simply considered it suitable? Many junior (male) Belgian royals served in the military without being demanded by public sentiment.


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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Elisabeth didn't join the army. She is simply taking a year's education at the military academy. This is an option available in Belgium. This is similar to what others like Victoria have done. Not actually serve in the armed forces, but receive some education/training.

The Dutch army as seems need to be repeated, does not have that option. They have made it clear for 23 years they are only interested in investing in people looking to make a career out of it. A princess taking a 'gap year' is not a career military. Now if she was actually wishing to serve, and like say Harry and William, wanted to spend some years in active duty military that would be another matter.
I am not so sure the option to enroll for only the first year of a program of several years would be equally accessible to a member of the general Belgian public. As Somebody mentioned, most institutions with limited spots would naturally prefer them to go to someone committed to following that career path.

The Swedish crown princess enrolled for a number of educational courses and internships across a variety of subjects and industries, of course without planning to follow a career in any of these. I imagine it would have been considerably more difficult for an ordinary Swedish citizen to be accepted into those programs without experience or commitment.
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  #171  
Old 11-02-2020, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you for the information!

I wonder whether it would make a difference in either scenario that she is the crown princess. They might consider the potential for the military/medical profession to capitalize on the heir for recruitment and publicity and the arguable need for the future head of state to educate herself about sectors of society.
The medical profession is already far more popular than what can be accommodated by the universities, so no need for recruitment in that field. Some will go to Belgium for studies because they are rejected in the Dutch lottery.

For the military it might be slightly different - they might like the boost for PR reasons while it might somewhat demoralize the military forces themselves as in the princess of Orange receiving special privileges (which is something that is not appreciated in Dutch culture; even though we understand the royal family has certain privileges; I guess the recent debate on their Greece holiday is sufficient proof ).

Quote:
Thank you for clarifying, I see now where you were coming from. My reading of the comments regarding possible military service was that it was not suggested as a response to the letter (which would indeed be illogical) but for the sake of military service per se.
Understood - your comments broadened the discussion and I learned something new myself (as I wasn't aware of all the intricacies of the military and reserve).
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  #172  
Old 11-02-2020, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Are there surveys or other indicators of discrepancies in public perceptions in the two countries on the basis of their technical constitutional differences, or is it possible that Princess Elisabeth or her parents and advisers simply considered it suitable? Many junior (male) Belgian royals served in the military without being demanded by public sentiment.




I am not so sure the option to enroll for only the first year of a program of several years would be equally accessible to a member of the general Belgian public. As Somebody mentioned, most institutions with limited spots would naturally prefer them to go to someone committed to following that career path.

The Swedish crown princess enrolled for a number of educational courses and internships across a variety of subjects and industries, of course without planning to follow a career in any of these. I imagine it would have been considerably more difficult for an ordinary Swedish citizen to be accepted into those programs without experience or commitment.

With men its simply a bit of family tradition. No demand. No one demands the British royal men serve in the army. Its just family tradition.

There is a huge difference when you are going to be the commander and chief of the armed forces when you take the throne. When Elisabeth becomes queen she will be a General of the Belgian Armed forces. Whether there would be major backlash from the public if she didn't serve, maybe not. But yes the king and his advisors would be very aware of the image that portrays. If she is going to be a General in the armed forces, it makes sense she actually have some sense of the military.

No one argues that royalty have doors opened to them that other's dont. But being completely ignorant of the policies of your country's armed forces is another matter. You can't compare Belgium or Sweden and their army to the Netherlands. The Dutch army has made it clear 'this is our intent with the army, to focus on professional soldiers'. Neither the Belgian or the Swedish armies have that I am aware of.



The courses Victoria took were all to help her in future roles as monarch. An understanding of areas like law, policy, diplomacy and the military. So it was very much part of her future career. Elisabeth will one day be General of the Belgian army (even if it is an honorary position) so yes her getting a year of introduction to the military and how it runs, is Very much part of her future career as queen. Catharina Amalia will not be a military general, that has no place in her future as queen, and as such is not part of her training.


if she feels like she wants to follow the tradition of her family and serve, then she should serve. But not an one year 'gap year'.
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  #173  
Old 11-03-2020, 03:13 AM
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Let Amalia take her own decision without chewing what possibly might be.
It is her life,she can do as she wants in this matter.One doesn t need to live up with the Jones s does one.Exactly!
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  #174  
Old 11-03-2020, 04:35 AM
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If she were a boy, currently, equally with no service obligation, would there be more expectations for "him" to do something with the military, or would the set of options look exactly the same?
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  #175  
Old 11-03-2020, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
You can't compare Belgium or Sweden and their army to the Netherlands. The Dutch army has made it clear 'this is our intent with the army, to focus on professional soldiers'. Neither the Belgian or the Swedish armies have that I am aware of.
Sweden practices conscription but Belgium, like the Netherlands, does not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The courses Victoria took were all to help her in future roles as monarch. An understanding of areas like law, policy, diplomacy and the military. So it was very much part of her future career. Elisabeth will one day be General of the Belgian army (even if it is an honorary position) so yes her getting a year of introduction to the military and how it runs, is Very much part of her future career as queen. Catharina Amalia will not be a military general, that has no place in her future as queen, and as such is not part of her training.
I am not informed about whether Dutch and Belgian monarchs are invested with honorary military ranks, but if an understanding of various areas including the military is perceived as part of the role of other European figurehead monarchs (and I agree that it is, although that understanding might not require actual military service), regardless of their constitutional position relative to the military (the king of Sweden is not even part of the government and thus has even less of a constitutional obligation to the military than the king of the Netherlands), then I don't see why it would be different for the queen of the Netherlands.
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  #176  
Old 11-04-2020, 12:29 AM
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Are the Belgians actively telling people 'we don't want you unless you plan on making a career out of it'? No. Thats the difference.

In Canada we don't have conscription. A lot of people join the military to get training, and education paid for. And not to have a 'career in the military'. This is the kind of thing that the Dutch are actively trying to avoid.

Again unless Catharina is going to be Queen of Sweden, not entirely surely what the Swedish monarch's role has to be do with her. We are comparing apples to bananas here. Different countries, different monarchies, different militaries and their approaches.

Victoria and Elisabeth will be queens of their country. That is they represent every aspect of their country. That includes their service men and women. Elisabeth will be a General in the Belgian army when she becomes queen. Victoria will not, which is why it wasnt as important for her to get a military training as it for Elisabeth. Elisabeth is taking a full year, Victoria took some courses at the defense college that didn't require her enlisting.

Perhaps reading up on Different monarchies and their Different roles in the military might be a benefit in this conversation for you.


Elisabeth
Leonor
William/George

They will be commanders and chief of their armies. Yes an honorary position but a position at that.



Catharina Amalia will not only not be commander in chief. But when she is queen, she is not allowed to hold any ranks in the military (honorary or not). As a member of the government of the Netherlands, she can not. Her father had to resign all his ranks in the military when he became king. So no, there is no 'the queen should have an understanding of the army', because the Dutch want a clear distinction between the military and the government.


I'd feel bad for the armed forces that people think the military of any country should be considered a 'gap year' from school. If the training is not going to be any part of your role in the future, then yeah you shouldn't be taking a place. Victoria and Elisabeth are completely different situations.
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  #177  
Old 11-15-2020, 03:21 AM
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It has pleased His Majesty The King to connect the Princess of Orange to a new Regiment Huzaren Prinses Catharina-Amalia which will incorporate the traditions of former cavalry regiments.

It is a merger of three Cavalry regiments:
Regiment Huzaren van Sytzama
Regiment Huzaren Prins Alexander
Regiment Huzaren Prins van Oranje


These Cavalry regiments are heavy armoured tank battalions, but since modern strategy is more and more with drones, intelligence and electronic warfare, for years there were no new additions, these regiments became in dormant state. From the 480 Leopard II tanks of the Royal Netherlands Army in four cavalry regiments in the 1990's only some some 20 Leopard II A4+, 60 Leopard II A6+ and 50 Leopard II A7+ tanks will operate together with the German Bundeswehr in the new 414 Panzer Batallion. Apparently there is no place anymore for hundreds of heavy tanks in modern warfare. Instead drones, Apaches, JSF fighters and missile systems are the new future.

The new Regiment Huzaren Prinses Catharina-Amalia will consist of:
- all active military now assigned to the former Hussars Regiments
- the Cavalry Honorary Escort
- the Mounted Regiments' Fanfare Corps
- the care and services for veterans of this and the former Hussars Regiments

For as long as there has not been a ceremony to hand over the new Standard to the new Regiment, it has pleased His Majesty The King to add a cravate to the Standard of the currently oldest existing Cavalry Regiment, the Huzaren van Sytzama (1814) with the text Regiment Huzaren Prinses Catharina-Amalia.

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen...-2020-432.html

This is a so-called cravate, added to an existing Standard: https://www.defensie.nl/binaries/lar.../18/foto-2.jpg
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  #178  
Old 11-15-2020, 06:51 AM
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Well, hussars are light cavalry, so it makes perfect sense that they have few main battle tanks left.

It's in line with other NATO hussar regiments:
One company/squadron of tanks.
One or two companies/squadrons of light armored vehicles for patrol, escort and reconnaissance.
With additional four companies/squadrons consisting of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers.

Infantry fighting vehicles have now largely replaced tanks as the main armored weapon on the battlefield. Because a modern infantry fighting vehicle has a fairly heavy canon, is well armored and can typically hold an infantry squad, who if need be can fight from inside the vehicle.
Because of their versatility they are well suited to most modern theaters of conflict and are as such very much in demand. - With tanks now having a supporting role.

Armored personnel carriers are gradually being phased out as a front line weapon. They used to drive infantry to the front line and offload them there. Today they are too lightly armored and tool lightly armed for use anywhere near a modern battlefield.
Instead they are being converted to specialist roles, like artillery radar, missile platforms, control for battlefield drones, medevac, anti-aircraft, support of self-propelled artillery, providing an electronic screen (ECM) not least against drones and countless other roles.

But what does it mean that Amalia is now connected to this regiment?
Will it become a "life-regiment" attached to her personally? Or to future princes/princesses of Orange?
Will she become a kind of honorary colonel of the regiment?
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  #179  
Old 11-15-2020, 11:39 AM
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No, the Dutch have no royal colonelships. It must be seen as a honour, as a personal connection. For an example, Princess Irene will attend special ceremonies from her Garderegiment Fuseliers Prinses Irene: https://gpdhome.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...09ac833970c-pi

We may expect an aubade or serenade by a section of the future Fanfarekorps Regiment Huzaren Prinses Catharina-Amalia on her birthday: https://www.denhaag.wiki/images/MapD...2-15-09-15.jpg
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  #180  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:19 AM
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This is the baretembleem (beret insignia) for cavalerists of the Regiment Huzaren Prinses Catharina-Amalia (RHPCA):
A silver emblem of St George fighting the dragon on a Nassau-blue patch
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ina-Amalia.jpg

This is the collar patch on uniforms of cavalerists of the RHPCA:
A silver emblem of St George fighting the dragon on a Nassau-blue patch (the yellowish tint is the lighting, it is silver)
https://magazines.defensie.nl/binari...egel-rhpca.jpg

This is the new motto of the RHPCA:
Pro Rege, Lege et Grege (For King, Law and People)

The ceremony of installing the new regiment (the King handing over a new standard) will be organised when Covid is over.
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