The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2281  
Old 12-15-2020, 08:38 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 7,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
You’re offering up your opinion on their relationship based on your own evaluations, choosing to ignore reports/quotes from good sources that speak to the opposite.
I think that from what I've read of Diana in her last few years, she was so - to put it bluntly unstable.. that its very hard to see her as sticking to any opinion or way of thinking for long. Yes there are sources that say she was friendly with Charles just as there are sources that say she was in love with Dodi.. but there are equally sources that say that she wasn't all that much in love with Dodi and was getting fed up with him... She was difficult and erratic and flew from mood to mood.
Court people like Dickie Arbiter tend to want to emphasize "Diana wasn't against the monarchy".. but many of her actions speak to the contrary... Since "THe Crown" came out with its stories of the Diana years, I think they've been worired about the negative portrait that it has given of Charles.. so courtiers will want to want to say that Diana didn't mean to knock the monarchy, and to paint a picture that Diana and Charles had forgiven each other and were now good friends.. as it makes the whole "Charles was a horrible husband" scenario less harmful.
Re Tina Brown IIRC said that she believed that Diana would have been happy to go back to Charles.. which hardly strikes me as her having reached a stage where she was in any kind of stable friendship with him. If she was still half hoping in an emotional way for some kind of reconciliation.. then she would have been doomed to severe disappointment because Charles was done with her and was only too happy to get divorced.
That was part of Di's very emotional wobbly nature in her later years.. She got it into her head as she often put it, that she "worked from the heart and not the head" as if that was a good thing.. and she was frequently misled by her intuitions and emotions. In the late 80s and ealry 90s, she kicked up a fuss, with the Morton book etc which suggested that she wanted out of the marriage.. but its possilbe she wanted to get Charles back OR to hit at him so that he ended up leaving his position in the succession... It was all very wild strking out.. and not at all coherent or logical.. But one thing that I think she didn't realise, was that Charles was just as fed up with the marriage as she was.. possibly even more so.. and he just longed to get out of marriage to this woman who was so difficult erratic and hard to cope with... and to get some kind of closure and be with the woman whom he felt happy with.
When DI outed his affair, Charles had some bad times.. very bad ones but in the end, he was able to get out of the marriage and to be with his good friend.. and that suited him pretty well...
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2282  
Old 12-15-2020, 11:06 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
No, its based on the fact that not all that much time had elapsed between their very bitter divorce and her death. And on the fact that Diana was a very volatile person particularly in those last few years. She was struggling to find a new life, and not always doing very well at it... Some people believed that she'd have taken Charles back in a heartbeat.. but he would not have wanted her back because he was happy with Camilla. So even if they were beginning to get over their estrangement, it was a long way from Dian's putting the marriage behind her and moving on to a friendly relationship with Charles - because her emotions were still running high. She was dating other men but her affairs weren't working out, her sons were growing up and she was lonely because they were beginning to lead their own lives and also were bound to spend time with their father and the RF learning their royal role....
And Diana was IMO still jealous and emotional about Camilla though she tried to give the impression that she didn't care any more...
If Diana wanted to "hold on to Charles" she would not have cooperated with Morton. Diana I think thought there was a chance up until ca. 1989-90.

Charles and Diana were responsible for their two children and needed to communicate about them and their plans for them. That was a given.

I am not so sure about Dr. Khan and Diana being "over." He still loves her and said so, and his marriage did not work out. I think Diana was in love with him as well. They may well have worked things out. It should be remembered Diana was only divorced ONE year from Charles, she would hardly settle down so fast.

I think there was animosity between Camilla AND Diana. I think Camilla disliked Diana and they were not buddy buddy. Camilla did not understand apparently that if she walked into DIana's Memorial Service she would have hijacked the purpose of the event. She backed out at the last minute. And she and Penny Junor are good friends and Junor always writes bad things about DIana.

I saw no struggling on Diana's part to find a new life. She seemed focused to me and she sold her iconic gowns for charity perhaps as a sign of a new beginning for her. She also called attention to landmines. I think she should be given more credit for all she did in her last year on earth. I did not see her as volatile.

Diana did tell her sons that she and their father could never live together anymore. Diana got the picture and would not live inj the past.

Denville, Diana was not "unstable" IMO. I think Charles floundered himself with his interview forcing the Parker Bowles divorce. Nobody is perfect.

I think Diana wanted out if she did not she would have put up with Camilla and turned a blind eye. From what I read and observed, Charles became very resentful of her and put her down in public. He was not kind to her and no woman with any backbone would not want to return to that treatment.

I don't think Camilla and Charles would have married "right away." The Queen Mother did not want them to marry in her lifetime. Diana may well have been living with or married to someone (perhaps Dr. Khan) by the time of the C and C wedding. Just speculation though.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2283  
Old 12-15-2020, 01:34 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Camilla did not understand apparently that if she walked into DIana's Memorial Service she would have hijacked the purpose of the event. She backed out at the last minute. And she and Penny Junor are good friends and Junor always writes bad things about DIana.
It's Charles and the boys who wanted Camilla at the 2007 Memorial, to show an united family who made peace with the past. The usual hysteria refused them to acknowledge even that. Camilla is not stupid, she pretty knew it could possibly turn that way, hence the last minute retreat and her statement.

As for Penny Junor, she's the obsession and the black sheep of all die hard Diana fans. Does't mean that Camilla shares her opinion. She's smart enough to keep it for herself, primarily for the boys.
Reply With Quote
  #2284  
Old 12-15-2020, 01:42 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
I think William and Harry did this to please their father. I don't think that they thought it was a good idea, they knew the history between their mother and Camilla. Camilla should have backed out sooner because the "controversy" took over the media until she bowed out. Penny Junor is biased that is clear. She publicly talks about Charles and Camilla as her friends. IT's her choice to do so. ANd she did cooperate with Camilla and some of the stories could only have come from Camilla. Camilla was not Diana's family and if Camilla did decide to show up, the purpose of the memorial would have been hijacked with "reaction shots" of Camilla interspersed. I did not see it as hysteria, just common sense and showing due respect for a deceased woman.
Reply With Quote
  #2285  
Old 12-15-2020, 03:08 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
I think William and Harry did this to please their father. I don't think that they thought it was a good idea, they knew the history between their mother and Camilla. Camilla should have backed out sooner because the "controversy" took over the media until she bowed out. Penny Junor is biased that is clear. She publicly talks about Charles and Camilla as her friends. IT's her choice to do so. ANd she did cooperate with Camilla and some of the stories could only have come from Camilla. Camilla was not Diana's family and if Camilla did decide to show up, the purpose of the memorial would have been hijacked with "reaction shots" of Camilla interspersed. I did not see it as hysteria, just common sense and showing due respect for a deceased woman.
It was hysteria, and it was not pretty to see. Diana's most hardent fans didn't see the memorial for what it was : respect the past and acknowledge the future. And yes Camilla was/is part of that future and it was an unique occasion for her to pay respect to the mother of her stepchildren. But of course for some, this act of peace, literally, was unbearable.

I remember vividly some women with Diana flags etc, just across the Guard Chapel who insulted Charles when he came out of this car. You could see the anger and the dismay in the eyes of William and Harry who welcomed the guests on the steps of the chapel. Anger and dismay not against Charles mind you, but against those women who dared insulting their father on this special day, their day.

Because that's the thing. Some Diana's supporters think that the memory of the late princess belongs to them , not even to her sons, and that every little steps to go ahead with life is an insult to what happened in august 1997.

It's not because you read 3 books and watch 'The Crown" that you know Diana and her entire story. There 'll always be a private, intimate part, that only her close family knew. The memorial of 2007 was made to celebrate that part. And yes William and Harry wanted, even just to please their father if you want, Camilla here. It was their choice, their privilege. It was just swept away by the usual brigade who is totally blindsided by the hate for a woman they never met and the irrational love for a dead woman they think knowing better than her own sons.
Reply With Quote
  #2286  
Old 12-15-2020, 03:09 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
It's Charles and the boys who wanted Camilla at the 2007 Memorial, to show an united family who made peace with the past. The usual hysteria refused them to acknowledge even that. Camilla is not stupid, she pretty knew it could possibly turn that way, hence the last minute retreat and her statement.

As for Penny Junor, she's the obsession and the black sheep of all die hard Diana fans. Does't mean that Camilla shares her opinion. She's smart enough to keep it for herself, primarily for the boys.
Thank you Nico for reminding us that it was Camilla's stepsons who invited their stepmother to the Memorial event. Since it has been thirteen years past, it's not surprising that details become hazy. agree that Camilla is definitely smart enough to not share her opinion regarding her relationship her stepsons with a journalist, even one who has been complimentary towards her.

With that in mind, I doubt that we will see her present at any future public memorial for Diana. That includes the upcoming statue unveiling. Diana's sons will be in charge of the event as they should be. Hopefully that Diana's most ardent fans have come to understand that the brothers are the rightful keepers of their mother's memory.
Reply With Quote
  #2287  
Old 12-15-2020, 04:23 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
It was hysteria, and it was not pretty to see. Diana's most hardent fans didn't see the memorial for what it was : respect the past and acknowledge the future. And yes Camilla was/is part of that future and it was an unique occasion for her to pay respect to the mother of her stepchildren. But of course for some, this act of peace, literally, was unbearable.

I remember vividly some women with Diana flags etc, just across the Guard Chapel who insulted Charles when he came out of this car. You could see the anger and the dismay in the eyes of William and Harry who welcomed the guests on the steps of the chapel. Anger and dismay not against Charles mind you, but against those women who dared insulting their father on this special day, their day.

Because that's the thing. Some Diana's supporters think that the memory of the late princess belongs to them , not even to her sons, and that every little steps to go ahead with life is an insult to what happened in august 1997.

It's not because you read 3 books and watch 'The Crown" that you know Diana and her entire story. There 'll always be a private, intimate part, that only her close family knew. The memorial of 1997 was made to celebrate that part. And yes William and Harry wanted, even just to please their father if you want, Camilla here. It was their choice, their privilege. It was just swept away by the usual brigade who is totally blindsided by the hate for a woman they never met and the irrational love for a dead woman they think knowing better than her own sons.
There is such a thing as diplomacy in situations that can become 'sticky.' I think the best alternative was for Camilla not to go. Lest she and her reactions would take precedence over the purpose of the memorial service. I don't think Camilla herself would have wanted to be the center of attention at the service and I don't think she'd be comfortable with it. Supposedly, the Queen recommended a "diplomatic illness."

I noticed Charles did venture a look at Harry's speech about Diana before the service. I think Harry's speech was great.

I think Camilla followed advice the best for her by not going into the service. Or she just never wanted to go. I think although Charles did want her to go allegedly I never thought it a great idea.

Personally, I don't get all my information from the Crown and yes, I have read Charles' side of the story.
Reply With Quote
  #2288  
Old 12-15-2020, 04:50 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Woodbury, United States
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Thank you Nico for reminding us that it was Camilla's stepsons who invited their stepmother to the Memorial event. Since it has been thirteen years past, it's not surprising that details become hazy. agree that Camilla is definitely smart enough to not share her opinion regarding her relationship her stepsons with a journalist, even one who has been complimentary towards her.

With that in mind, I doubt that we will see her present at any future public memorial for Diana. That includes the upcoming statue unveiling. Diana's sons will be in charge of the event as they should be. Hopefully that Diana's most ardent fans have come to understand that the brothers are the rightful keepers of their mother's memory.
Nico’s post was brilliant. Diana fans think they own her and her memory - and they hold onto the angry version from the War of the Wales because they want to believe that she was as unchanging as they are, as intransigent. This is why on Twitter they keep referring to “Diana: In Her Own Words” - she said it once, and nothing else must ever have happened after that. She never changed, never changed her opinions, etc...

As to Camilla, she no longer needs to appear at the memorials. She’s a fixture in Charles’s life, in William and Harry’s.....let the brothers pay tribute to their mum without the media or Diana stans creating an uproar
Reply With Quote
  #2289  
Old 12-15-2020, 05:46 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Its Off topic but at the time of Di's death, she and Fergie werne't speaking and Diana had been very firmly insisting that Fergie was no longer on her list of freinds...
You're quite right. Fergie looked just devastated at Diana's funeral.

Fergie was at the Concert for Diana in 2007, so that's why I wondered.
Reply With Quote
  #2290  
Old 12-15-2020, 06:16 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Nico’s post was brilliant. Diana fans think they own her and her memory - and they hold onto the angry version from the War of the Wales because they want to believe that she was as unchanging as they are, as intransigent. This is why on Twitter they keep referring to “Diana: In Her Own Words” - she said it once, and nothing else must ever have happened after that. She never changed, never changed her opinions, etc...

As to Camilla, she no longer needs to appear at the memorials. She’s a fixture in Charles’s life, in William and Harry’s.....let the brothers pay tribute to their mum without the media or Diana stans creating an uproar
Camilla has gotten her own tributes, birthdays etc. and has not been neglected I never saw any "uproar" about DIana fans. People have their own favorites and opinions re: Diana Vs. Camilla. I think that it is wonderful that William and Harry remember their mother and I hope the statue ceremony will be one to remember.
Reply With Quote
  #2291  
Old 12-15-2020, 06:51 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
I never saw any "uproar" about DIana fans. .
C'mon ...

Anyway glad Charles and Camilla are tough cookies and used to endure the same people, same comments and same littleness for 20 years and more.

Again it's not serving the late princess of Wales's legacy to act like Cerberus and bark at any imaginary offense to her memory.

At least William and Harry have proven to be above that, for the sake of their mother, their father and their stepmother. In my eyes that's the most important : keep the good, forget the bad. The rest is just stirring the pot.
Reply With Quote
  #2292  
Old 12-15-2020, 07:27 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I’m sorry, I don’t buy this argument at all. I already quoted Victoria Arbiter, who would know, and I know her father has spoken about Diana and Charles’ later relationship at length. We have Tina Brown’s quotes, and frankly, even we’ll before I joined this forum (years before), I’d read about their friendship. Also, even if I did agree with your statement, it wouldn’t explain why people are so adamant that C and D weren’t friends.
i'm in agreement with you that, at the time of her death, Diana was on amicable terms with Charles and their relationship had greatly improved. The divorce was finalized and they both came to acceptance that the marriage was over and were starting to build a relationship outside of the marriage that was amicable. For both of the boys and for themselves and peace of mind. What proved that to me was the fact that Charles immediately felt he needed to go to Paris to bring Diana home with her sisters. He most certainly didn't have to do that. He wanted to. That's what friends do.

I don't think though that any of the people you mentioned above though had an insider's view of Charles and Diana's relationship with each other day to day during the 'War of the Wales" times. They may have, however, heard a lot of things from Diana, herself. And of course, Diana would be painting herself as the injured party and painting Charles in a negative light. She wasn't about to "get honest" and start listing areas where she was at fault herself.

It boils down to that people see what they want to see especially if they're taking sides on who's at fault when a relationship goes down the tubes.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2293  
Old 12-15-2020, 07:51 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Woodbury, United States
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
i'm in agreement with you that, at the time of her death, Diana was on amicable terms with Charles and their relationship had greatly improved. The divorce was finalized and they both came to acceptance that the marriage was over and were starting to build a relationship outside of the marriage that was amicable. For both of the boys and for themselves and peace of mind. What proved that to me was the fact that Charles immediately felt he needed to go to Paris to bring Diana home with her sisters. He most certainly didn't have to do that. He wanted to. That's what friends do.

I don't think though that any of the people you mentioned above though had an insider's view of Charles and Diana's relationship with each other day to day during the 'War of the Wales" times. They may have, however, heard a lot of things from Diana, herself. And of course, Diana would be painting herself as the injured party and painting Charles in a negative light. She wasn't about to "get honest" and start listing areas where she was at fault herself.

It boils down to that people see what they want to see especially if they're taking sides on who's at fault when a relationship goes down the tubes.
Of course I was talking about after the War of the Wales, after time had passed...I believe Charles insisting on bringing Diana home was an act of love.

I feel like we’re going around in circles, lol.
Reply With Quote
  #2294  
Old 12-15-2020, 07:55 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,646
S'ok. I like going around in circles with you. It makes my day a more pleasant one.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2295  
Old 12-15-2020, 07:59 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
C'mon ...

Anyway glad Charles and Camilla are tough cookies and used to endure the same people, same comments and same littleness for 20 years and more.

Again it's not serving the late princess of Wales's legacy to act like Cerberus and bark at any imaginary offense to her memory.

At least William and Harry have proven to be above that, for the sake of their mother, their father and their stepmother. In my eyes that's the most important : keep the good, forget the bad. The rest is just stirring the pot.
It's a matter of opinion. William and Harry still talk frequently about their mother. I think it good that William and Harry talk of her.

I don't see what Charles and Camilla "endured." Nothing is imaginary. Some have different takes. That's life. No wrong answers here
Reply With Quote
  #2296  
Old 12-15-2020, 08:15 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
It's a matter of opinion. William and Harry still talk frequently about their mother. I think it good that William and Harry talk of her.

I don't see what Charles and Camilla "endured." Nothing is imaginary. Some have different takes. That's life. No wrong answers here
Yes sure, differences in perception i suppose.
Reply With Quote
  #2297  
Old 12-15-2020, 08:50 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Woodbury, United States
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
S'ok. I like going around in circles with you. It makes my day a more pleasant one.
LOL thanks - and vice versa!

I don't think we're too far from agreement, actually. We're in the same book, just a page or two off ! Ultimately, whether you think Charles and Diana were amicable or good friends, I think it's clear their relationship was much, much improved after time had passed and before she died. At least William and Harry got to see their parents get along and haven't had to live a lifetime of wondering if their parents ever loved each other, did they hate each other ...poor things.
Reply With Quote
  #2298  
Old 12-15-2020, 11:31 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Nico’s post was brilliant. Diana fans think they own her and her memory - and they hold onto the angry version from the War of the Wales because they want to believe that she was as unchanging as they are, as intransigent. This is why on Twitter they keep referring to “Diana: In Her Own Words” - she said it once, and nothing else must ever have happened after that. She never changed, never changed her opinions, etc...

As to Camilla, she no longer needs to appear at the memorials. She’s a fixture in Charles’s life, in William and Harry’s.....let the brothers pay tribute to their mum without the media or Diana stans creating an uproar

Agreed. It's a shame that some of Diana's more ardent fans seem to be under the impression that their opinion on how she's to be remembered is laced with the anger and discord from that era.



Camilla while she isn't the biological grandmother of William and Harry's children, is certainly a part of their lives as a loving family member.

And through her sons and grandchildren, Diana's legacy will continue.
Reply With Quote
  #2299  
Old 12-17-2020, 10:43 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 239
William and Harry have loving memories of their mother and William said he tells his children about Diana and in all likelihood Harry tells Archie.

I think Charles and Diana were polite to each other and had she lived would have worked well together regarding decisions about their childrens' future. Once they divorced, the "pressure" was off so to speak and they could move on. I wonder if the choice of University for William would have been the same had Diana lived.
Reply With Quote
  #2300  
Old 12-17-2020, 12:10 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
William and Harry have loving memories of their mother and William said he tells his children about Diana and in all likelihood Harry tells Archie.
I think nobody said the contrary, again they knew her better than all of us and she will be forever in their heart and mind. That's said , they can cherish the memory of their late mother and still love their father and have some level of affection for their stepmother.

It's not incompatible , but some people (and by that i'm not referring to you in particular) have certainly some issues with that.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diana princess of wales, legacy, memorial, princess diana


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Princess Grace's Legacy HMTLove23 Princely Family of Monaco 197 01-18-2021 02:03 PM
Left Or Right-Handed Royals? Peggy Royal Life and Lifestyle 49 02-03-2016 02:34 AM
The Legacy of Elizabeth II vkrish Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh 21 12-18-2012 07:45 AM




Popular Tags
abu dhabi american history anastasia anastasia once upon a time ancestry armstrong-jones baby names baptism biography british royal family brownbitcoinqueen carolin cht cpr duchess of sussex duke of sussex earl of snowdon family tree games general news thread george vi gradenigo haakon vii history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs imperial household interesting jacobite japan jewellery jewelry jumma kids movie list of rulers luxembourg mailing maxima monarchy mountbatten nepal nepalese royal family pless princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess elizabeth princess eugenie princess laurentien princess of orange princess ribha queen elizabeth ii queen maud resusci anne royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding russian court dress spain sussex swedish queen thai royal family unsubscribe videos wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:10 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×