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  #1981  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:12 AM
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Yes, they did have different expectations, Osipi, and of course Charles's were equally unrealistic in a way. He expected that she would meld in with his friends who were in several cases much older.

That 20 year old met them, and was unimpressed; didn't she call Soames 'heavy furniture' because he was given to a certain amount of pomposity? If he had known her better Charles would not have expected her to love the countryside or discuss Jung or van der Post during cosy evenings at Highgrove. He probably expected Diana to be engaged and supportive when he was anguished about various aspects of the modern world, a world she was actually happy in. Charles was interested in her life as little as she in his, and their getting together at all was a disaster in the making.

I've never read Cartland or other bodice rippers, (though I can vaguely remember borrowing a Georgette Heyer historical from the library in my deep dark past!) They are truly awful I'm sure, but divorce was never mentioned and living happily ever after was, so I suppose that was their appeal to Diana.
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  #1982  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:23 AM
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Cartland is NOT a bodice Ripper, and neither is Georgette Heyer. They are differnet sort of historical romance writers, but NOTHING like the rubbish ones nowadays. (not that I like Cartland) but they are not bodice rippers.
As for Diana, No I think she was completely almost stupidly innocent. There was no way she was thinking that in the future, perhaps she and Charles would get bored and have other lovers. She believed that there would be no divorce, but she also believed there would be no reason for divorce, that she and Charles would be a happy loving couple. Had she had more sense, to be honest, I think she would have accepted that IF her marriage was less than very happy, if she and C did get bored iwht each other, the traditional way of solving it for a royal was to discreetly have an affair or lead separate lives ad that the RF would probably look away if she did this.. and Charles did it.
But she didn't think of this at all I'm quite sure. she was as Nic Soames said, like a very young teenager, and not a very clever one..
So I think she blinded herself to what Camilla's relationship with Charles had been, didnt' think that he might have been in love with his on and off for years girlfriend.. and it was only when she was married and realised that she didn't seem to hit it off with Charles, for many reasons and in many ways..(problems with the RF etc) that she was suddently hit with the idea "My marriage ISNT a happy one.. its not working out at all and I'm not sure I want to be stuck with the RF for life."
If she had been a sensible upper class old fashioned girl, with the old world ideas that the RF still held to, she would have just accepted that the marriage wasn't great - but that it had to last. She would have made the best of it, and looked around for another man when she had produced 2 or 3 children. But she didn't feel like that at all clearly. When her marriage was bad, she hoped either to make it right, or to get out of it..
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  #1983  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:23 AM
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Thank you for answering my question, Lady Nimue. I expected that you didn't/don't like her and that there would be caveats if there was any praise, and I wasn't disappointed. Yes, she was flawed. Even her greatest admirers admit that, but she was also a fascinating individual as well. There is admiration for Diana on her threads and there is also criticism here as well, some of it unwarranted, which those who admire her also try to counter.
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  #1984  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I do not believe that Diana went into her marriage believing that adultery would be part of it on either side, ever. Her childhood had been blasted by her mother's adultery and her father's divorce. Nor do I believe that Charles went into it thinking, "Oh well, others do it, so if it doesn't work out there's always Cam..or someone else." That would be an extremely cynical attitude to take.

every few minutes' types.
I don't think that her girlfriends were all middle class, but they were quite a bit younger than the older members of the RF, who were still holding ot the idea "If a marriage doesn't work, you have an affair, you DONT get a divorce." so Diana with others of her generation, felt that if a marriage didnt' work, if you were so fed up that you fell for someone else or had an affair, you then ended the marriage. And that's what she wanted to do, I think well before she did start an affair with Hewitt.
I've read in one book that 16 months into the marriage she was talking about leaving Charles.

She STILL loved Charles, I believe and was sadly clinging to the idea that somehow, some way they would work out, but still, I don't think she was really happy with the idea of "well if C and I can't get along, we have other lovers"... She took Hewitt and made the best of it, problaby because the powers that be had impressed on her that she could not leave Charles..
However when that affair ended, I think she tried to find another man and confided in Gilbey who was in love with her. Maybe there was an affair, I'm not sure. But I think he was more of a shoulder to cry on, because she was unhappy, believed she had to get out of the marriage.. and when she fell in love with other men, later, she wanted to be with them..She hoped Oliver Hoare would leave his wife. She wanted to marry Khan...
if she had been so sophisticated about marriage that she expected a bit of infidelity, she would have turned a blind eye to it.. as other royal wives had done...
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  #1985  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:37 AM
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Thank you for answering my question, Lady Nimue. I expected that you didn't/don't like her and that there would be caveats if there was any praise, and I wasn't disappointed.
Preconcieved expectations means you have selectively read my post if that's what you think. Diana is beyond loving or hating. Someone as she was deserves our compassion. I am definitely not her fan, but that does not make me a hater of the poor woman.

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Yes, she was flawed. Even her greatest admirers admit that, but she was also a fascinating individual as well. There is admiration for Diana on her threads and there is also criticism here as well, some of it unwarranted, which those who admire here also try to counter.
That is warranted, I think. Diana is a fascinating cultural phenomenon, worthy of study. However, because you admire her does not then mean that every criticism is an assault, which needs deflection. Always JMO.
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  #1986  
Old 08-28-2016, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
It just has been shown in too many biographies written about Diana how she expected Charles to be. Put her on a pedestal. Have his thoughts, words and deeds center around her and have no interests of his own, no friends he associated with that she didn't like. She had the expectations, I believe, that marriage would be a glued at the hip to each other and a happily ever after ride into the sunset. She resented Charles' Prince of Wales role as it took him away from her too much. She resented his friends as she had absolutely nothing in common with them. She resented being at Highgrove or Balmoral as the social circle and activities were not ones she would actively seek out for herself.

Perhaps the biggest elephant in the room between Charles and Diana were that their expectations of marriage were totally and completely different to begin with.
I think that that is a bit excessive. Yes she did hope for a really total commitment from her husband and believed that they would spend most of thier time together. It wasn't realistic, but I think a lot of young women start a love affair with that sort of "I love being with him and want to be with him all the time".. and men tend to want more of their own space.

I don't believe she resented his friends, as such. It was just that at first she had fooled herself into believing that she shared all his interests and loved the life he was living and wanted to be a part of it. When she was married, she realised that she didn't like Scotland or the RF at close quarters, that she found country sports and the rain boring..and that Charles' friends weren't all that fascinating close up (and neither was Charles though I think she resisted that thought .)
I agree that she could be jealous and want a lot of attention, but I don't believe that she resented everyting about Charles that "took him away from her." I think she just found that a lot of his life simply bored her and she didn't enjoy it..and that Charles was busy with a lot of things that she didn't really enjoy..and he went on with his life, leaving her feeling lonely and unwanted.
I think they BOTH tried to overcome this difference, that he tired to take her on sunny holidays and stay home with the children..and she tried to force herself to like riding and watching C gardening, and to tolerate his friends.. but Neither of them found it easy. His friends were about 20 years older than her, she had nothing in common with them and they clearly just about tolerated her as a young woman whom they didnt' really choose to befriend..

I think Charles really did try - and he cared...but he problaby found the sunny holidays not that fascinating and while he loved the kids as babies, he wasn't that crazy about pushing a pram around or playing kids games when they got a little older.. He had his life nicely sorted out long before Diana came along.. and without meaning to be unkind, I think he just regarded her as needing to fit into it.. - and to an extent I think that was inevitable at the time.. that a royal wife really had to live with the RF and leave her own life behind to an great extent..

He didn't mean any harm but he expected her to fit in, though he DID make attempts to bend his lifestyle to hers, but they were so fundamentally different that they both found the effort wearying..
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  #1987  
Old 08-28-2016, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Iaristocrats are cheating on their spouses, 'jumping into bed with each other every few minutes' types.
I think a lot of them are, but all the same, they Don't nowadays, act as "we stay married and have affairs on the side" as they used to. The divorce rate in the upper classes is pretty high, i'd say around the national average.
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  #1988  
Old 08-28-2016, 04:29 AM
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I expect theere will always be - at it's strongest - Diana lovers and haters! People can express their opinions, but they are always going to be only that!

I don't believe Diana was either the saint or victim protrayed. Haven said that I am on her side!

Charles has also grown on me a bit over the years .....
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  #1989  
Old 08-28-2016, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
I expect theere will always be - at it's strongest - Diana lovers and haters! People can express their opinions, but they are always going to be only that!

I don't believe Diana was either the saint or victim protrayed. Haven said that I am on her side!

Charles has also grown on me a bit over the years .....
Certainly she wasn't a saint, but she wasn't IMO the calculatlng type. She sometimes tried to be, but wasn't very good at it. She was better at handling the media in some ways than Charles was, but her instincts let her down as often as they did her a favour. But if she had been so cleverly calculating, as her "non likers" seem to see her, she would harldy have complained about Charles' affair.. she would have realised that it was unlikely she'd win a war against the RF, she might win battles but not the war and so she would have stayed married to him and made the best of her position.
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  #1990  
Old 08-28-2016, 05:36 AM
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A few posts have been removed as the moderators do not encourage posters calling or implying that their fellow posters are 'haters'. Simply because one is critical, or does not like someone, does not mean they are a 'hater'.

Please keep on topic and keep personal remarks towards other posters out of it.
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  #1991  
Old 09-03-2016, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
I expect theere will always be - at it's strongest - Diana lovers and haters! People can express their opinions, but they are always going to be only that!

I don't believe Diana was either the saint or victim protrayed. Haven said that I am on her side!

Charles has also grown on me a bit over the years .....
I feel that really, the truth is that there weren't 2 sides.
It wasn't a case of Diana's being an innocent angel tricked into marriage by Charles who intended to keep up his affair with Camila, AND it wasn't a case of Diana being the villain who fooled Charles into marriage when she didn't love him but only his positon. She certainly was IMO bad at being "calculating".. she was as many have said, a good tactician but a bad strategist. She could be quite clever in manipulating in the short term, but she didn't think long term and often messed up because of that. She managed to put out a story (which by then she problaby believed) that Charles was the bad guy, that he had married her without loving her, and pushed her intot a situation of her having an affair because he was neglecting her and cheating on her... But she didn't think, that being divorced, being out of the RF wasn't going to be an easy thing, and when it finally happened, when the queen ordered divorce, Diana panicked and I think was very scared as to how she would manage, now, as an ex royal.
I think she did the Panorama interview cleverly in the sense that she managed to keep it secret and did impress many people, but didn't think that it was pushing her mother in law to the point of finally saying "this has to stop, you're getting a divorce."
But I think her underlying motive for it, was hurt, not "clever calculation". She was hurt that in Charles' interview, he had implied that he hadn't loved her, that he had preferred another plainer older woman and had said this on TV. So she wanted to lash out at him...
I don't think a woman like that, was likely to have thought calmly at the age of 19 or so, "well if I marry Charles, I've got to expect a bit of infidelity on both sides.."
In fact I don't think she knew much about sex as a phenomenon then, and didn't perhaps realise that Charles and Cam had a powerful sexual bond, and that she herself would feel inexperienced by contrast...
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  #1992  
Old 09-03-2016, 06:37 PM
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I think that this is a good appraisal, Denville. It seems to me that many--although relatively few on this forum, thank goodness--take a black-and-white, either/or approach when dealing with the puzzle that was Charles' decision to marry Diana and Diana's reason for accepting his proposal. I do believe that they had the best of intentions in getting engaged. By the time of the marriage, they both had serious second thoughts, and they never really managed to form a deep bond after that.

Perhaps if they'd managed to have a longer honeymoon reasonably alone together and we able to just talk and go for walks and not have to dress up for dinner every. Few people have to think about entertaining guests back the castle or dealing with family tensions while on their honeymoon. To my mind, they never had the chance to be "just us."

They liked each other's company while they were courting. Very much so, it seems. If only that getting-to-know-each-other could have continued past July 29, 1981.

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It wasn't a case of Diana's being an innocent angel tricked into marriage by Charles who intended to keep up his affair with Camila, AND it wasn't a case of Diana being the villain who fooled Charles into marriage when she didn't love him but only his positon.
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  #1993  
Old 09-04-2016, 01:50 AM
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I think they got on well enough perhaps to be friends in a way or to have a short liaision. Not for the long hard pull of married life. they were clealry attracted to each other, and I think they had one or 2 interests in common, and for a time that was enough. And while they were courting, Diana had fooled herself into believing that she was enjoying the country life that was so much a part of Charles' life.. I don't think she was wilfully pretending. I think she had a capacity to fool herself..
And he wasn't probably the sharpest tool at discerning a woman's feelings.
I think he badly wanted this relationship to work out, because he had reached the age of getting married. He knew that, and I think he had though realised in the previous year or so, that he really cared most for Camilla, that she was the special person in his life...But he knew he culd not marry her and he'd have to give up the affair..
So I think he saw Diana, young, simple sweet natured, who seemed to be liked by his friends and family, who seemed perfect for the role of Princess. And who was a virgin, of the right class.
He msut have thought that he had really lucked out in finding a woman who was all of that and very pretty as well. And she seemed to be very attracted to him, very into all his hobbies, watching him fish and shoot and going for country wlaks with him.. She loved kids. So he probably felt that she had a lot In common with him, she seemed to care for him and he really needed to get married...so - all he had to do was propose. And his family esp Philip were now saying "get on with it, if you don't nab her, you'll be very lucky if you find another young well bred Protestant girl with no past.."
So I think he sort of closed his eyes and jumped. but afterwards I'm not sure if maybe he had more doubts than Diana did. I think she had a few doubts, she got scared after the engagement. She let herself think, and I think then she began to focus on the Camilla thing.. I think after her engagement, she was' not as happy as she hoped to be.. Charles was busy with his work. he probably seemed a bit too busy, and she began to wonder if he really loved her. I think she began to get an inkling that there had been soemthing special about him and Camilla, whom she had probably dismissed at first as a plain older woman.
And I think once she was actually married, it all hit her on the honeymoon that she was stuck with the RF for life. That she had to put up with all this sporty stuff, every year for weeks, live In the Rainy countryside and sit home while her husband was out shooting.. That the RF's lifestyle was very very formal and she couldn't relax with them.. or just be wth her husband...
and from then on, I dont think anything much worked. I think that her bulimia made her difficult and irrational. Charles tried to help her but she was not at the time able to make any use of the doctors and specialists, who were called in. And they got on each other's nerves. He got less sympathetic. Problaby the RF began to get fed up with her too and said "just leave her alone, she's being silly."
I think she realised she did not enjoy all the country things and stopped trying, mostly.. and he problaby felt annoyed and betrayed..
but the more they knew each other well, the more they disliked what they found out about each other...
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  #1994  
Old 09-04-2016, 02:52 AM
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To mermaid, I just noticed you said a longer honeymoon. but they did have several weeks, 3 weeks on Brittania and about 6 in Balmoral. I think that taht's long enough!! Any more and they woud seem very spoilted and privileged.
I think that yes you're right in a way that when they were alone at times, perhaps they got on better, but that's not really a guide for normal married life and certainly not for the RF. They are always going to have people around. There will be other royals, staff etc.
I think that in short bursts and if they were alone, they got on OK and liked each other.
But when they were together for a longer time, even on Brittainia, I fear that being together and getting to know each other more, only showed up the differences. he was happy reading, and didn't mind the RN being there. She found it daunting, but I think that soon, she was problaby glad of it, because she DIDNT enjoy sittng quietly reading or listening to Charles, and wanted to chat with SOMEONE congenial, like the crew.
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  #1995  
Old 09-04-2016, 03:04 AM
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I think Charles did have doubts about proposing. I think although he wasn't particularly perceptive, the age gap and all that meant probably played on his mind. He was after all an old 32 and Diana a young 19.

Charles also had this deep insoluble bond with another woman, Camilla. The primary reason he had doubts before the engagement, IMO, was because he in his heart knew he belonged to Camilla heart and soul. Diana didn't know that. She was wrapped up in this fantasy of true love with Charles for ever and ever, and white knights and castles, and never having a shattered marriage.

Charles agonised over making the right decision, we know he did, but in the end he went through with it, in spite of all doubts, because of the pressure. He'd always felt diffident with his father, so he chose to treat Prince Philip's letter as an ultimatum, which it wasn't. A friend who saw the letter described it as quite reasonable. It's almost as if Charles thought "Right, he's pushing me into this. If I'm miserable in future it will be HIS fault!"

He knew 'the country' wanted him to marry because the media told him so. They'd fallen in love with the idea of 'Lady Di' even if he hadn't! So, Charles, although 32 years old and in love with someone else for years, could not resist media pressure and the bayings of the Press in full flight.

If he had grown a backbone, ignored the media (as after all, he does now, he doesn't read the tabloids) and just written back to his father saying that he wasn't sure and wanted more to to get to know Diana, how much sorrow and bitterness would have been avoided.

Yes Prince Philip probably would have accused him of whiffle waffling, the Press would have done the same. So what!

The last bachelor Prince of Wales, for all his faults and there were many, God knows, resisted pressure to marry until his forties. That doesn't mean that if Charles had done the same, Britain would have ended up with another Wallis. Who knows, a 35 year old Prince Charles might have met a 29 year old countrywoman, the woman of his dreams with an unremarkable romantic past, fallen deeply in love with her and put aside his bond with Camilla.

Instead, because Charles wouldn't grow a backbone and listen to what his heart was telling him, untold misery was the result.
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  #1996  
Old 09-04-2016, 03:12 AM
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I tink that is unfair to Charles.
He was 32, he had reached an age where he ad to get married. At the time, he had to marry a virgin. So a much younger woman like Diana was the only one he coud seriously consider.
If he'd told Philip he didn't want to marry Diana, and ignored the press, he still had the obligation to marry. If he had ditched Diana, I think he would have been seen "leaving tis lovely young girl after toying with her affections" and it would have been a bad story to chalk up..
Now, he probably feels he can ignore the press because he's been through the worst and survived it. He has a happy marriage, and he's going to be King. So what more can they do to him?
But to get bad press then at the end of the 70s, when the RF had been worrying about left wing governments, would NOT have been soemthing he or they wanted.

and I think that Diana was so fixated on getting married to him, that if he had said he wanted more time ot court her, she would have gone on "playng the country girl" for as long as it took...
Charles knew at the time that he could ntot marry Camilla, and that he had to marry a young virginal girl.. he was prepared to do that. Lots of people don't marry the person they love most, but they wrok out ok..
I don't think that his love for Camilla was the main factor In the failure of the marriage. It was an issue and Diana believed it was the big issue, but I think it was much more to do with incompatitbilty and her psychological fragility
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  #1997  
Old 09-04-2016, 06:33 AM
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I think that Charles and Diana had an up and down marriage but the earlier years were more up than down. There are plenty of pictures showing them looking at each other with affection, and to my recollection Charles often looks more into her, you see him put his hand over hers, try to get her attention, be playful. etc.

To be sure there were problems from day one, but I don't necessarily think certain problems like Diana's bulimia or suspicions about Camilla were present and/or visible all day, every day. I think that there was some retconning done, particularly to support and even amplify the, "there are three in this marriage," "Charles resents Diana's popularity," and "Diana is difficult and unbalanced" assertions, but I think Charles and Diana's marriage, while it was doomed overall, had many good interludes especially in the early years.
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  #1998  
Old 09-04-2016, 07:05 AM
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One of Diana's closest friends, Lucia de Lima never doubted that Charles was the love of Diana's life. As probably her first love and the one she married, quite likely. She was still a teenager when she got engaged after all!

Disappointment set in fairly quickly.

Prince Charles was the love of Princess Diana's life, her close friend claims
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  #1999  
Old 09-04-2016, 07:42 AM
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I really would like to know where this story that Charles 'had to marry a virgin' came from? People have been spouting it for years on Twitter and all sorts of forums and I've never been able to track the original source.

It's true, I think, that the Queen and the rest of the older royals probably preferred that Charles pick a girl to marry with not too much of a risqué past, someone like Amanda Knatchbull perhaps. Andrew's Koo and Davina Sheffield, who had lived with an old boyfriend, come to mind as those with too much baggage in that direction.

However Anna 'Whiplash' Wallace had a few boyfriends in her past, so did Sabrina Guiness, and after all, Andrew was able to marry Sarah Ferguson, who had actually lived in Switzerland with Paddy McNally for months at a time.

It's well known that the Queen never interferes with the love lives of any of her children (or grandchildren.) Doesn't do it now, didn't do it in the 1970's. So who laid down this edict to Charles that 'No, a girl who has had previous boyfriends or a serious relationship is completely unsuitable. Your wife HAS to be a virgin (and therefore very young).'

Who told him this? Prince Philip? Can't see that, actually. Did Charles himself adopt this rule? In that case, what was he doing spending months in his late twenties, when he should have been searching for the virgin bride, with Whiplash, Lady Jane Wellesley and several other young women who'd had previous boyfriends?
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  #2000  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:50 AM
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Interesting question Qurryong.
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