Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[Andy T]

Originally Posted by Cory

It is a beautiful dream but I doubt the King will be restored on his Throne.

On that, at least, we share the same sad conclusion.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

In the event that there are dynastic rights, one of the Hohenzollerns still needs to convert to Orthodoxy to assume Headship of the Royal House, correct?

Nobody will ask them to do so in nowadays Romania.

[Benjamin]

Cory, I sincerely appreciate a great deal of your contributions to the forums dedicated to the Royal House of Romania, as you have a lot of knowledge in many areas.

However, sometimes your biases, which we all have, get in the way of the factual nature of your posts.

Under the 1923 Constitution, the successors to the throne, should the main line die out, are the Hohenzollerns...and, under the same constitution, the successors need to be Orthodox. One must accept all of the conditions, or none at all.

[Cory]

In nowadays Romania there is no official national state but only 18 denominations equally recognized by the state. It is impossible to ask anybody by law to belong to a certain denomination. In case of the Restoration the religious affiliation of the Royal Family won't be a matter for the Constitution.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

Nobody will ask them to do so in nowadays Romania.

So in this regard, you choose to ignore article 77 in the Romanian constitution of 1923, where it clearly states that the King shall belong to the Eastern Orthodox religion. That is very inconsistent of you, when you are not allowing for any other arguments to be made against other parts of this long-dead constitution to be updated to modern times.

If the constitution is read carefully and the wording of article 78 viewed in the proper light, it also clearly stipulates that in the absence of direct male-line heirs, brothers of the monarch etc, the King may indicate his successor. With the clear statement in 2009 from the head of the Hohenzollern family, that he was not interested in the Romanian throne, that should be all that is needed to move on to the next step, the King indicating a successor.

When the King did just that in the document signed by his own hand, asking the Romanian parliament to update the line of succession in accordance with modern-day practices, and allowing for female succession, he acted within the constitution he swore to uphold. Ergo, his actions have been above board and according to practice and the spirit of the law at all times.

Whether or not that indication he gave, is followed when a restoration is considered, is another matter, but one cannot fault the King at any step in this process.

[Cory]

Just try to read carefully the text of the Constitution of 1923 where it is clearly stated that if the King does not have a direct male successor the Throne passes to the brothers of Carol I and their descendants and only if those do not accept the Crown there could be a proposal of another Royal House excluding the female descendants of the Sovereign. So after King Mihai the dynastic rights will pass to the Hohenzollerns and not to the female descendants of the nowadays King. The fact the Sovereign made a proposal in 2007 does not mean that proposal was in line with the Constitution of 1923.

Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.

As it would be contrary to Romanian, EU, European and Western monarchical presedence in 2015 to exclude from a line of succession, daughters of a King, but not sons. No country will revive a monarchy in the West and uphold gender discrimination, and why anyone here supports it, continues to elude me.

I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.

That seems to be the line of thinking for those who suddenly have a new found fervor for the Princely Hohenzollerns.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

As it would be contrary to Romanian, EU, European and Western monarchical presedence in 2015 to exclude from a line of succession, daughters of a King, but not sons. No country will revive a monarchy in the West and uphold gender discrimination, and why anyone here supports it, continues to elude me.

I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.

You seem not understand that when a Royal House is defunct their only justification is that very Constitution on which their whole existence as a royal family is based. It is really not that difficult and you make a drama out of nothing. In all countries with an aristocracy -except Spain which has a different system- the titles are inherited via male inheritance. This was the case with all monarchies. In many reigning monarchies the Constitution has been changed to gender-neutrality and the succession has been adapted to it. This was a legislative and democratic decision by the nation's Parliament.

In Romania there is no such Constitution and there is no Parliament which can enforce such changes. When you accept that King Michael can change everything to his own personal daily whims, then you have to accept it too when Princess Margareta decides in her own personal and daily whim that her sister Irina Walker formerly Kreuger, her nephew Michael Kreuger, her cousin Kohen Kreuger, her niece Angelica Knight née Kreuger, her cousins Courtney Knight and Diana Knight are all back in line of succession and can call themselves "Prince (Princess) of Romania".

Why not? The only legal arrangement has been thrown overboard. The pages of that legal arrangement have been used to wipe King Michael's own royal derrière with. The only "rule" seems to be the daily whim of the person who seems to consider him- or herself as the Head of the former Royal House of Romania...

That is what differs you from me. You say: there is no monarchy anymore and the former King has to adapt. I say: there is no monarchy anymore. Anyone who claims a position on ground of that former monarchy has to claim it according the rules which were in force when that monarchy was still reigning. My position gives clarity for anyone involved. Your position is as secure as the next fart of the former King or his pretended successor.

The Hohenzollerns who were cut-off in the "michaelist" line of succession are there for 1000 years and they have followed their House Laws. It is not for nothing that the Chefs of both lines of the House of Hohenzollern (Prince Georg Friedrich for the Protestant line and Prince Karl for the Catholic line) married a partner which is standesgemäß according the regulations of their House. It is not for nothing that Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg has not married his longtime partner Carina Axelsson since she is not standesgemäß according to the regulations of his House and such an union might affect the inheritance of the immense family fortune. They know that -as members of formerly reigning dynasties- they are nothing else than what they are on base of this very same legal document which was in force when they were still a reigning family. Any unilateral change simply changes it to a piece of toilet paper.

Prince Emmanuele Filiberto di Savoia has this position because his father is the son of Italy's last King. His father, and not his father's elder sister Princess Maria Pia, who can claim to be Head of the House because -hey, we are in 2015-. Because that was the legal situation. The Italian monarchy is no more. So the legal situation has been frozen in 1946. When Prince Emmanuele Filiberto decides today that his two daughters will be successors and that his eldest daughter is the future Heir, what will happen when he remarries in a couple of years and get a son? Will he change it again to be sure that the old succession rules will apply again, because now it would befit him and his son? No, if you want to be a monarchy, stick to the rules of the game. When the rules can be changed to any fart, there is no game anymore. It is as simple as that.

[eya]

In Romania there is no monarchy anymore but there is a royal family. King Mihai should ensure the continuity of the family. If Hohenzollerns as I read here clearly stated that it does not care about the Romanian throne then the Κing had recreating the line of succession based on his family. Mainstream has changed many times, but I want to believe that he could not do otherwise. Right now the only thing to be done is to ensure the continuity of the family. Why is the restoration of the monarchy perhaps even a little late.

[Cory]

The support for the restoration is almost 30% but there is no real support for the descendants of the King.
The Hohenzollerns have never signed any Statement giving up their dynastic rights.

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

Support for the Royal Family is reflected in the opinion polls regarding restoring the monarchy, as they are the symbol of the monarchy in Romania. Until there is a question asked of people whether they support a continuation of the monarchy under the Royal Family, or by asking a Prince of Hohenzollern to create a new line, there is no basis to dismiss support for the Royal Family.

It is not really like this: not everybody is in favour of Monarchy is in favour of the descendants of the King. The Sovereign has a public support of around 50% while less than 30% support the Monarchy.

It is obvious there will be a new Constitution when the Monarchy is restored. The idea of forcing somebody to change religious affiliation to get a certain position in the society is not accepted at all and anyway the royalists want a future King but the majority of them do not care if he is Catholic or not.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

The support for the restoration is almost 30% but there is no real support for the descendants of the King.
The Hohenzollerns have never signed any Statement giving up their dynastic rights.

Support for the Royal Family is reflected in the opinion polls regarding restoring the monarchy, as they are the symbol of the monarchy in Romania. Until there is a question asked of people whether they support a continuation of the monarchy under the Royal Family, or by asking a Prince of Hohenzollern to create a new line, there is no basis to dismiss support for the Royal Family.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Cory

Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.

If a Royal Family is supposed to be a reflection of the country over which they reign, then it would be important for the Romanian Royal House to remain Orthodox, as they are required to do under the 1923 Constitution.

Over eighty percent of Romanians belong to the Romanian Orthodox Church.

The only suitable candidate for royalist Romanians who desire a monarchical future for their nation is Prince Nicholas (né Medforth-Mills), the only son of Princess Helen.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

If a Royal Family is supposed to be a reflection of the country over which they reign, then it would be important for the Romanian Royal House to remain Orthodox, as they are required to do under the 1923 Constitution.

Over eighty percent of Romanians belong to the Romanian Orthodox Church.

The only suitable candidate for royalist Romanians who desire a monarchical future for their nation is Prince Nicholas (né Medforth-Mills), the only son of Princess Helen.

To ask anybody to have a certain religious affiliation in nowadays Romania is against the laws of the country.
Last year the Romanians refused to vote for an Orthodox politician to become head of State and chose a Lutheran.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Cory

To ask anybody to have a certain religious affiliation in nowadays Romania is against the laws of the country.
Last year the Romanians refused to vote for an Orthodox politician to become head of State and chose a Lutheran.

However, we are not speaking of the nowadays laws of the country.

The Constitution of 1923 is the basis for this discussion about the succession.

Under it, the Head of House must be male and Orthodox. Period. Full stop.

[Ceallach]

If old house rules matter then no changes. If you can change it for religion, you can change it to allow women and marriages to commoners. You can't say someone is not acceptable because they are female, which is highly offensive generally in Europe; and then say that another man is acceptable even though he is the wrong religion cause that rule is archaic and changeable. Both are archaic. You can't pick and choose; if house rules are changeable for one then they are changeable period.

[Cory]

" Wrong religion"? Carol I was Catholic and he built the modern Romanian state,Ferdinand I was Catholic and united the Great Romania.

The Romanians have two historic religious traditions: Catholicism and Orthodoxy. There were Catholic King's and very important ones. Nobody would respect today a man that changes his religious affiliation only to become King. Nowadays Romania is not XVIth century France.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Paris vaut bien une Messe. (Paris is worth a Mass). People change religion for less than a throne.

:)

[Duc_et_Pair]

This is all purely theoretical, Catholic, Orthodox and whatever.
My stance is:

- the monarchy will not be restored in Romania

- the Romanian branch of the House Hohenzollern will become extinct with the former King's daughters

- the headship of the former Royal House will simply fade-out as neither the families Von Hohenzollern, Medforth-Mills and Biarneix have shown real interest in it and will continue to live their private lives outside Romania

[eya]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

This is all purely theoretical, Catholic, Orthodox and whatever.
My stance is:

- the monarchy will not be restored in Romania

- the Romanian branch of the House Hohenzollern will become extinct with the former King's daughters

- the headship of the former Royal House will simply fade-out as neither the families Von Hohenzollern, Medforth-Mills and Biarneix have shown real interest in it and will continue to live their private lives outside Romania

Ok this moment things seem just that. But my stance is that you never know what will happen in indirect or direct future. We must in romania is our issue to try to keep the idea of restoring the monarchy possible. This had somehow succeed with Nikolae but you never know ......

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Forget Nicholas. He will date a nice girl somewhere, start a family and career. His house will have some family portraits. There will be some royal porcelain and silverware here, maybe a diamond rivière there and that was it.

I hope Nicolae to read it. He described the future and even his home

Cory it is very important that the royalists to show support whom.

The King is an old man,spent several in life, I believe that we all respect him without doubt. But is this an excuse to support him in all these wrong movements that have done and have cost the monarchy; (Probably)

Oh yes the Prince Radu will always be easy victim for any attacks. And in the future when Margareta will be the head of the royal house will be more. Now if these attacks are fair or unfair like seeing someone . I have no comment