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  #61  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:19 AM
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There are a lot of examples, the divorced journalist Letizia Ortiz was certainly not what JC and Sofia had in mind for their son Felipe.

Mette-Marit, there are still a lot of people who think that she is not qualified for the royal job she signed up for.
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  #62  
Old 09-10-2018, 01:53 PM
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Emperor Akihito's mother was against his decision of marrying Michiko who was a commoner
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  #63  
Old 09-10-2018, 02:23 PM
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The late Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg was apparently not very happy of her son Grand Duke Henri marrying a wealthy but commoner-born Cuban lady.
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  #64  
Old 09-10-2018, 02:35 PM
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Pieter van Vollenhoven, the first commoner at the Dutch Court, faced considerable resistance in the royal family, in the Household, in politics and in society. It took decades before Pieter was taken au sérieux. Pieter himself told that even his parents initially were not happy with his marriage to Princess Margriet: man should not jump furtherer than the length of his pole, was his parents' stance (with other words: a Princess of Orange-Nassau was out of his league). According Pieter only his mother-in-law, Queen Juliana, was enthusiast from the very beginning. Maybe too enthusiast: the Queen more or less wanted to demonstrate that all men were equal to her (but she was blind for the fact that no matter how she tried to be a plain Mrs, she was exactly not equal at all, with her palaces, her glittering diamonds, her livered lackeys, her hofdames, etc. A peculiar black hole in her argumentation.)
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  #65  
Old 09-10-2018, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
The late Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg was apparently not very happy of her son Grand Duke Henri marrying a wealthy but commoner-born Cuban lady.



I find it interesting that Henri married a commoner, but Guillaume married a countess from a very old noble family. It proves that, although marriage to commoners are now the "new normal" for most royals, marriage to aristocrats or even to other royals cannot be ruled out a priori in future generations.
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  #66  
Old 09-10-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I find it interesting that Henri married a commoner, but Guillaume married a countess from a very old noble family. It proves that, although marriage to commoners are now the "new normal" for most royals, marriage to aristocrats or even to other royals cannot be ruled out a priori in future generations.
Likewise Philippe to Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz.
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  #67  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:32 PM
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Likewise Philippe to Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz.

But his mother was no commoner like in the case of Guillaume. So far in Belgium no heir to the Throne has married a commoner.
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  #68  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I find it interesting that Henri married a commoner, but Guillaume married a countess from a very old noble family. It proves that, although marriage to commoners are now the "new normal" for most royals, marriage to aristocrats or even to other royals cannot be ruled out a priori in future generations.
It seems that especially the French speaking catholic aristocrats tend to mingle; so not surprisingly they intermarry quite regularly.
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  #69  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:59 PM
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Thank you for your responses. So it would seem that of the current European Royal Families, only Queen Mathilde and Princess Mary did not have objections to their marriage. I think there were some objections to Princess Sonia of Sweden and Princess Marthe Louise as well, though I don’t have specific evidence. Is marrying a commoner the most common objection? What are the others?
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  #70  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
There are a lot of examples, the divorced journalist Letizia Ortiz was certainly not what JC and Sofia had in mind for their son Felipe.

Mette-Marit, there are still a lot of people who think that she is not qualified for the royal job she signed up for.
Well, when a heir marries a single mother - with a dubious past and a problematic father, then there will of course be some noise.
But I haven't seen/heard one journalist/commentator (or ordinary person) here in Norway, who has said that ''she is not qualified for the royal job she signed up for.''

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Thank you for your responses. So it would seem that of the current European Royal Families, only Queen Mathilde and Princess Mary did not have objections to their marriage. I think there were some objections to Princess Sonia of Sweden and Princess Marthe Louise as well, though I don’t have specific evidence. Is marrying a commoner the most common objection? What are the others?
KMD, welcome to TRF!

By courtiers? Yes.
By the King and Queen? No.
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  #71  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:22 PM
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There are actually quite a few were there were no objections.

Marrying a commoner is no longer an issue.

Suitability and background is however. And that has been the objections against some of the recent marriages.

Mette-Marit: Single mum and a... colorful past.
Daniel: (I suspect) was not considered well-educated enough.
Sophia: Colorful past wearing not that much clothes.
Queen Letizia: Divorced.
Queen Maxima: Unfortunate dad, politically speaking.
Megan: A very interesting family, most would prefer only to see in photo albums.
And so on and so on. - Not the fact they were commoners, but either personally unsuited, had a "history" or their family.

ADDED: And perhaps we should remember the relationships that were broken up.
Frederik had a serious affair with a women, who was not the sharpest knife in the drawer and her father was... interesting.
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  #72  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:35 PM
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There was opposition against Emily Bremers (the longtime girlfriend of Prince Willem-Alexander). Apparently Queen Beatrix found it not desirable that a future Queen had a past in the Netherlands. Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti was no noble but "at least foreign".

There seems to have been resistance against Doña Isabel Sartorius y Zorraquín, daughter of the Marquès de Marino, stepdaughter of Princess Nora von und zu Liechtenstein. In hindsight, with the present King of Spain married with a divorced tv-anchor, this resistance was remarkable. Maybe the Court knew there were problems with Isabel's natural mother (drugs addiction).
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  #73  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by KMD View Post
Thank you for your responses. So it would seem that of the current European Royal Families, only Queen Mathilde and Princess Mary did not have objections to their marriage. I think there were some objections to Princess Sonia of Sweden and Princess Marthe Louise as well, though I don’t have specific evidence. Is marrying a commoner the most common objection? What are the others?
The Danes have problems with their royals marrying other Danes, hopefully that will change under Frederik X.
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  #74  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:43 PM
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The Danes have problems with their royals marrying other Danes, hopefully that will change under Frederik X.
I sincerely hope not!

Marrying foreigners works fine.

No family making a spectacle of themselves. No past in the country, but somewhere else. No potential political/economic family baggage in the country. - And it's good for diplomacy and the export.

ADDED: And here you have just seen an example of an objection.
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  #75  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:58 PM
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No family making a spectacle of themselves.
That example is exactly the same given by The Queen herself so I'd say it's a valid one. According to what she wrote in a book I can't remember the name off a few years ago her parents put no pressure on her to find a royal husband but that they preferred him to be foreign.

That said had either The Queen or any of her sons fallen in love with a suitable Dane I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't have gotten permission to marry. Neither Frederik, Ingrid, Daisy or Henri were/is rigid and/or stuck up.
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  #76  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:05 PM
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That example is exactly the same given by The Queen herself so I'd say it's a valid one. According to what she wrote in a book I can't remember the name off a few years ago her parents put no pressure on her to find a royal husband but that they preferred him to be foreign.

That said had either The Queen or any of her sons fallen in love with a suitable Dane I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't have gotten permission to marry. Neither Frederik, Ingrid, Daisy or Henri were/is rigid and/or stuck up.
Absolutely.
But so far they have very obligingly chosen a foreigner.

However, should Nikolai stick to his current girlfriend I don't think anyone would object. She - and her background and her family seems to be fine.
Nikolai is admittedly pretty far down the royal pecking order, but it would IMO be someone in that league to get an okay from QMII/Frederik X should it be Christian or Isabella.
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  #77  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:33 PM
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It's speculation but I don't think that Queen Margrethe would have easily accepted either of her sons marrying Danes. I suspect that it was instilled in Frederik and Joachim that they would have to find non-Danish wives which is what they did with Joachim doing it twice.

Wasn't that what some believed was the issue with Princess Elisabeth and her partner? I suppose that Frederik or Joachim could have engaged in a high stakes game of chicken with Margrethe and make it known that he will give up his place in the line of succession if he was not allowed to marry his Danish beloved, but I don't think that Margrethe would have accepted either son marrying a Dane with alacrity.
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  #78  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:53 PM
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It's speculation but I don't think that Queen Margrethe would have easily accepted either of her sons marrying Danes. I suspect that it was instilled in Frederik and Joachim that they would have to find non-Danish wives which is what they did with Joachim doing it twice.

Wasn't that what some believed was the issue with Princess Elisabeth and her partner? I suppose that Frederik or Joachim could have engaged in a high stakes game of chicken with Margrethe and make it known that he will give up his place in the line of succession if he was not allowed to marry his Danish beloved, but I don't think that Margrethe would have accepted either son marrying a Dane with alacrity.
Agree on both counts.

I think with Elisabeth it was more a question of her not wishing to lose her title and perhaps some sort of rebellion? Her partner was a former member of the resistance and a documentarist, so nothing unsuitable there. After all the other Rosenborgs married pretty ordinary people.

As for QMII it was very much instilled in her and her sisters that they were destined to marry foreigners. QMII herself has said often that one of the things that delighted her when she at age 13 found out she was the new heir, was that now she didn't have to leave Denmark.

And I think it's necessary to have a very pragmatic view on who you marry when you are a senior royal.
With all possible respect for Meghan personally, her family is a nightmare scenario for other royal families out there. And they are IMO going to make even more sure that future spouses will be vetted even more carefully. - And if they don't their governments will!
It's difficult to say how many sweethearts have been given the thumbs-down by governments, but it may be more than we think.
And while you can wear your family down and marry someone who is considered less than ideal, it's another matter to get a no from a government and as an extension of that, the parliament, in a given country.

As such I think the day when an heir could get away with marrying almost anyone he/she loved has come - and gone.
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  #79  
Old 09-10-2018, 06:58 PM
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Princess Mabel was definitely given "thumbs-down"; however, Prince Johan Friso married her.
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  #80  
Old 09-10-2018, 07:57 PM
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As for QMII it was very much instilled in her and her sisters that they were destined to marry foreigners. QMII herself has said often that one of the things that delighted her when she at age 13 found out she was the new heir, was that now she didn't have to leave Denmark.
Interestingly, the requirement for Benedikte's children was to grow up in Denmark to remain in line to the throne while at the same time it was expected from her to marry a foreigner (preferably royal or noble).

Quote:
And I think it's necessary to have a very pragmatic view on who you marry when you are a senior royal.
With all possible respect for Meghan personally, her family is a nightmare scenario for other royal families out there. And they are IMO going to make even more sure that future spouses will be vetted even more carefully. - And if they don't their governments will!
It's difficult to say how many sweethearts have been given the thumbs-down by governments, but it may be more than we think.
And while you can wear your family down and marry someone who is considered less than ideal, it's another matter to get a no from a government and as an extension of that, the parliament, in a given country.

As such I think the day when an heir could get away with marrying almost anyone he/she loved has come - and gone.
Currently there are quite a few questionable people married into the royal families of Europe. Although I personally would prefer people to only be 'judged' on their own merits and not on their families. What makes you think that this leniency is going away?
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