The Windsors and Europe

[ROYAL NORWAY]

This article gives a perspective on why the BRF is "somewhat isolated" from other European royals.

Prince Charles' VERY mixed feelings over the Queen's record reign revealed | Daily Mail Online

It's Richard Kay, he is what we can call anti Charles.

 

[Queen Claude]

I don't think Richard Kay is anti-Charles. Yes he was fed stories directly by Diana during the War of the Wales years but in the years since he has run stories and made comments that show he has/had high level contacts in Charles' camp, and these sources are feeding him information, and he is subsequently writing stories and making comments that convey what Charles' camp wants made public.

It makes sense to me that Kay and Charles' camp let bygones be bygones, if indeed there was hostility to begin with. The relationship is symbiotic: as a royal correspondent, Kay needs to be on good terms with and have access to most relevant royals and/or their staffs, and the royals need to have contacts in the media, including the tabloids, who will give them favorable publicity and promotion.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Kay was more than just someone who wrote stories in support of Diana - he was her favourite reporter and rarely writes anything positive about Charles. He really resents the fact that he no longer gets the inside scoops direct from the horse's mouth that he had from Diana.

 

[Mbruno]

This article gives a perspective on why the BRF is "somewhat isolated" from other European royals.

Prince Charles' VERY mixed feelings over the Queen's record reign revealed | Daily Mail Online

If it is indeed true that Prince Charles declined to attend events such as Queen Margrethe II's 75th birthday gala dinner because he "didn't want to be seen next to young monarchs" such as Willem-Alexander of the Nerherlands, Philippe of Belgium, or Felipe VI of Spain, then I'd say that reflects very badly on the Prince of Wales. It suggests immaturity and an attitude unbecoming to someone who aspires to be king one day.

Having said, I have a hard time believing that Richard Kay's claim is true.

 

[Cris M]

If I remember it correctly, Queen Margrethe II's birthday dinner was attended only by Sovereigns and consorts, so only the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh could have attended.

There was another dinner, I think, but that was only for members of the Scandinavian Royal Families, and it was attended by the Crown Princely Couples of Sweden and Norway.

 

[Mbruno]

If I remember it correctly, Queen Margrethe II's birthday dinner was attended only by Sovereigns and consorts, so only the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh could have attended.

There was another dinner, I think, but that was only for members of the Scandinavian Royal Families, and it was attended by the Crown Princely Couples of Sweden and Norway.

I was referring to the following excerpt from Richard Kay's article.

The Queen — long accepted as the Grand Dame of the European crowned heads — rarely attends the weddings or jubilees of her royal cousins these days.

It used to be the convention that the Prince of Wales would go in her place. But no longer. With some monarchies — notably the Belgian, Spanish and the Dutch — adopting a policy of abdication, Charles is said to prefer to avoid the company of young kings, such as Felipe of Spain, 47, Philippe of Belgium, 55, and Willem-Alexander, 48, of Holland, who all have the chance to make their marks as monarchs in middle age.

‘The Prince detested what he took to be sympathetic looks and comments that occasionally reached his ears when he appeared in such company,’ says a long-standing official.

The danger is that this doesn’t mean the spotlight falls more intensely on Charles and Camilla, but on the glamorous Kate and William. This might lead to people calling for them to be the next king and queen.
Royal aide

‘He doesn’t want sympathy — he hates it. So, by agreement with Buckingham Palace, he no longer has to attend such occasions.’

This can lead to some tricky situations.

For example, at the glittering 75th birthday celebrations for Queen Margrethe of Denmark there was no British royal presence.

‘With so many crowned heads present, it meant that only Charles would have been of appropriate senior royal rank to attend,’ says an insider. ‘But he didn’t go.’

The Royal Family’s only Dane, the Duchess of Gloucester — the former Birgitte van Deurs, who worked as a secretary at the Danish embassy — would have been the obvious other choice, but sources say she was not of sufficiently senior rank to represent the Royal Family.

You are right though that, at the "high table" on Queen Margrethe's dinner, in addition to members of the Danish royal family itself, there were only European monarchs and their consorts, making it somewhat inappropriate for the PoW to attend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz2jHJf0Fxs

​

 

[AdmirerUS]

Thanks, Mbruno for the explanation. I've always thought Charles was in a most difficult position. While I loathed his obvious and public childishness during his first marriage, I completely understood his frustration with his "waity Katy" royal role. And I completely agree with your explanation about eschewing European events pre/post abdication.
He can't win. He sees himself as brilliant and as a possible positive influence on his country/the world. I tend to agree that he has been spot on about coming threats. But his role has been to wait in the wings and avoid anything that besmirches the monarchy.
What worse job could there be - to lurk and seem to be effective while waiting for your mother and the nation's beloved Queen to die?

 

[Queen Claude]

Kay was more than just someone who wrote stories in support of Diana - he was her favourite reporter and rarely writes anything positive about Charles. He really resents the fact that he no longer gets the inside scoops direct from the horse's mouth that he had from Diana.

This is a list of his recent articles for The Daily Mail, they seem mostly positive to me including the article that is prompting this discussion, but of course you and others may see it differently.

ETA:
Diana made herself available to the likes of Richard Kay and Andrew Morton, I don't think that is Charles' style. Penny Junor would be considered Charles' Richard Kay or Andrew Morton, right? If so I don't recall Junor having direct contact with Charles but she certainly had well-placed connections in his camp.

Having said, I have a hard time believing that Richard Kay's claim is true.

I certainly don't assume everything is true, but the question is if untrue, what, or rather who, is at the root of the untruth? It's been reported that staffers of Prince Charles like his former Deputy Private Secretary Mark Bolland fed false information to the media. Having said that I certainly wouldn't put it past Kay or any other gossip journalist to use dubious sources, or exaggerate/distort the truth in general, but I don't see there being a current agenda to smear Charles or carry out a vendetta against him.

 

[MARG]

I'm sorry, but we don't work with "It's been reported", "a source close to", "close friends", "sources inside BP/CH". Unless a "source" is verified we are pretty skeptical. Richard Kay is a known Charles basher, but then he rights for that great and wonderful tabloid "Daily Mail" and "Mail Online" where we all love the photos (some of the best in the business) but whose veracity is decidedly suspect.

There is no need to refer to gossip about who was feeding what information to whom, Diana has been dead for 18 years and, except for the ritual anniversary Charles/Camilla bashing, does not factor into the equation.In the time since the death of Diana things have changed, people have changed, but Richard Kay and his latest acolyte, Geoffrey Levy can always be relied upon to get a dig in and this article was no different than dozens of others.

The reference to King Phillipe of the Belgians is just plain odd. His situation is hardly easy, with a highly dysfunctional family in a two King nation as indeed is King Filipe of Spain. Hardly something to envy. Then of course there's the accusation that he was responsible for the famous "Balcony Scene" . . . as if HM was anything but in charge of her own balcony!!!

 

[Moonmaiden23]

King Philippe was born in April of 1960, which means that he turned 55 years old this year....some 12 1/2 years the junior of the Prince of Wales.

 

[MARG]

Post corrected. I thought Philippe was 60 and instead he was born in 1960 . . . maths was never my strong suit and my hampster fell off its wheel. I guess the early grey reinforced my misconception.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Yes, I agree MARG. Poor Philippe was once a handsome young guy but has aged rapidly in recent years and appears somewhat older than his age now.

 

[Curryong]

I think Philippe has a nice, kind face, though, perhaps compensation for his grey hair!

Of course Charles would have some mixed feelings about this latest milestone. He may even feel a little bit peeved when in the presence of much younger monarchs. After all, Bertie Prince of Wales did when he met his nephew Willie, the German Emperor. However,Charles is hardly likely to vent any frustrations to royal correspondents. These correspondents are reliant on any tittle tattle they can pick up from inside the Household for the articles they write.

 

[Queen Claude]

I'm sorry, but we don't work with "It's been reported", "a source close to", "close friends", "sources inside BP/CH". Unless a "source" is verified we are pretty skeptical. Richard Kay is a known Charles basher, but then he rights for that great and wonderful tabloid "Daily Mail" and "Mail Online" where we all love the photos (some of the best in the business) but whose veracity is decidedly suspect.

There is no need to refer to gossip about who was feeding what information to whom, Diana has been dead for 18 years and, except for the ritual anniversary Charles/Camilla bashing, does not factor into the equation.In the time since the death of Diana things have changed, people have changed, but Richard Kay and his latest acolyte, Geoffrey Levy can always be relied upon to get a dig in and this article was no different than dozens of others.

If you are referring to my "it's been reported" comment regarding Mark Bolland, that came from a documentary/TV program where royal correspondents discussed their interactions with him/his team when he worked for Charles. I'll try to unearth it and if I find it I'll post it.

I totally co-sign the comment, "In the time since the death of Diana things have changed, people have changed," and I think that Richard Kay has changed with the times, he would have been foolish not to. Do I think Richard Kay gets his digs in? Yes but I don't think that equates to him trying to smear Charles. Is taking a dig at Charles verboten? Are articles that aren't complete tongue baths completely dismissed?

 

[wbenson]

" The Queen — long accepted as the Grand Dame of the European crowned heads — rarely attends the weddings or jubilees of her royal cousins these days."

Was there a day when she did? I thought she'd always sent family to those kinds of things.

 

[Mbruno]

I think Philippe has a nice, kind face, though, perhaps compensation for his grey hair!

Of course Charles would have some mixed feelings about this latest milestone. He may even feel a little bit peeved when in the presence of much younger monarchs. After all, Bertie Prince of Wales did when he met his nephew Willie, the German Emperor. However,Charles is hardly likely to vent any frustrations to royal correspondents. These correspondents are reliant on any tittle tattle they can pick up from inside the Household for the articles they write.

I find it very hard to believe that Charles would deliberately skip a continental royal event like a wedding or jubilee just because he feels uneasy in the company of younger monarchs. That would be even more unlikely if the Queen explicitly requested that he go to such events to represent her.

If the PoW really feels that way when in the presence of the new kings of Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands, I suggest that he should seek counselling as that kind of low self-esteem and insecurity does not bode well for a future monarch of the UK and the Commonwealth realms.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

You nailed it Mbruno.

Is the PoW really so....thin-skinned?

 

[Osipi]

I'm more inclined to believe that the reason Edward and Sophie have become the "go to" couple who attend weddings and funerals and such of other countries is not because of any hang up or low self esteem on Charles' part but makes more sense that its because there's one thing that the PoW has and that is a very full day planner that is filled months and sometimes years in advance. He's always on the go doing something and I believe that Camilla has joked at one time that she had to wave and yell Happy Birthday to Charles as he sped past her on his way to somewhere else.

I think the only time in recent memory that Charles has canceled something in order to attend a funeral was his own wedding to Camilla. He delayed the wedding for a day so he could attend the funeral of the Pope. I'm sure that as well as Camilla knows Charles, she totally understood. If Charles takes his role as King as seriously as he takes his role of Prince of Wales, the UK and Commonwealth nations will be in good hands.

ETA: Actually found the article where in Camilla's own words, she describes the man Charles is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...birthday-Prince-Charles-youre-exhausting.html

 

[Skippyboo]

You had a period when Charles was single and Camilla was out of the public view post Diana's death. Then they slowly starting bringing her out. So Charles is unmarried with a sticky situation partner and then you have married Edward and Sophie without the baggage that C&C have. Who are you going to send to a wedding on the continent?

Charles and Camilla went to W-A inauguration. But they aren't going to go to CP wedding because he wasn't the heir.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[Curryong]

I believe that one of the reasons the Wessexes began to be sent to Continental royals' celebrations is that they were and are more of an age with most of the Crown Princes and Princesses. They therefore probably have a lot more in common.

Charles did attend some of the occasions earlier but he is up to a generation older than most. Edward and Sophie have always seemed to mingle very nicely with their royal colleagues and appear to be great friends with many of them.

 

[Somebody]

Relationship between British and Continental Royals

In the Royal Family Order thread a discussion started about the relationship between the British royals and their counterparts on the continent. I couldn't find a thread on this topic, so that's why I started this one - feel free to merge if it already exists and I just missed it.

Kate did quite well with HGD Stephanie earlier this year ...so I think they all rub along well enough but since the war things changed so much...and that includes the relationships between the monarchies.

LaRae

Interesting idea. Can you elaborate on that? I assume you refer to WWI? It clearly affected the relationship with the German nobility but there wasn't really a reason to also impact the relationship with the other European royal families, I would say?! So, why was that response so strong? In WWII some even sought shelter in the UK (queen Wilhelmina for example). However, it seems that foreign royal brides or bridegrooms were indeed less sought after - with 'British subjects' being preferred over foreigners...

 

[Marengo]

Indeed, I suppose that what may have been meant is that after WWII the trend that royals marry other royals has stopped. In Britain that was already the case since WWI (save two exceptions). So the family ties will be less close, which perhaps could result in a relationship that is less close.

 

[scriptgirl]

I think it is more WWII as I think the reverberations from that would be more recent.

 

[Pranter]

Yes that's the main gist of what I mean thanks Marengo!

Somebody...to add to that, monarchies collapsed and a whole way of life changed for many of the Royal families. While all of the European royals (except maybe one I think) are related but you have to go pretty far back at this point to find a close tie. They don't socialize as they did when Monarchies spent more of their lives in pursuits of pleasures and rich man sports. Much more of their time has to be spent doing actual work/charitable work to balance out the pleasure part.

For England specifically ...Downton Abbey really does show the turning point of lifestyle. After WW1 there was already a shift ...WW2 finalized it.


LaRae

 

[Somebody]

Thanks for merging! (although it seems a few posts got lost in the process)

@scriptgirl, at first I also thought about WWII (as that one is always more on my mind as our country was neutral in WWI) but given that the more drastic measures (change of name!) were taken because of WWI, and the queen's mother already was a British subject and not a foreign princess, it seems that this process started earlier. WWII might have further solidified this process; although the queen still married her foreign prince - who had to renounce his claims and titles.

 

[Pranter]

Just think of the reach Queen Victoria had...I don't think there was hardly a royal house of Europe not married to one of her children or grandchildren.

That isn't going to ever happen again.


LaRae

 

[Somebody]

Yes that's the main gist of what I mean thanks Marengo!

Somebody...to add to that, monarchies collapsed and a whole way of life changed for many of the Royal families. While all of the European royals (except maybe one I think) are related but you have to go pretty far back at this point to find a close tie. They don't socialize as they did when Monarchies spent more of their lives in pursuits of pleasures and rich man sports. Much more of their time has to be spent doing actual work/charitable work to balance out the pleasure part.

For England specifically ...Downton Abbey really does show the turning point of lifestyle. After WW1 there was already a shift ...WW2 finalized it.

LaRae

Thanks for clarifying.

However, you don't have to go that far back for the royals to be related at the moment: the king of Belgium and grand duke of Luxembourg are cousins; the queen of Denmark and king of Sweden are cousins. The former king and queen of Spain are brother-in-law and sister(-in-law) of the former Greek king and queen (the one being the sister of the queen of Denmark).

However, the trend is clear, nonetheless, most of the 'continental royals' (especially the Scandinavians and more in general the (former) crown princely couples still have (rather) close relationships with each other - just no longer the expectation that they marry each other

 

[scriptgirl]

Thanks for merging! (although it seems a few posts got lost in the process)

@scriptgirl, at first I also thought about WWII (as that one is always more on my mind as our country was neutral in WWI) but given that the more drastic measures (change of name!) were taken because of WWI, and the queen's mother already was a British subject and not a foreign princess, it seems that this process started earlier. WWII might have further solidified this process; although the queen still married her foreign prince - who had to renounce his claims and titles.

I read once that the Queen Mother discouraged the BRF from mixing with European royals. Not sure why, but the story goes that a major European royal slighted her and that was part of the reason.

I have always found the BRF to be very insular and to be honest, it seems that Will and Kate and Harry, seem to be carrying that on.

 

[Curryong]

I think after World War I King George V looked at a very different world and accepted that if and when his children were to marry it would be fine if they married British Aristocrats, which three of them did.

And that's great, however I do like the closeness of the Scandi monarchies to each other, the way that until quite recent times they married into each other's Houses. To me they seem great friends as well as fellow royals. The same with other Continental royals as well, such as the Belgians/Luxembourgs.

So, in a way, to me it's sad that the BRF no longer appears to be part of the 'Royal mob' in that way. Also, I do know why it happened (age disparities of the Queen and Charles who are very much older than other monarchs and their heirs) but this has meant that, until Edward and Sophie became regulars, no-one much from the BRF attended heirs' 21st birthday parties or other Continental or Scandi family celebrations. It gives the impression to some of the public that the BRF believe themselves better than others. It's erroneous but that impression is out there.

I did hope actually, though Sophie did a great job, that some other members of the BRF would turn up to King Harald's 80th birthday celebrations. Other monarchs and spouses and heirs were there. I wish Charles/Camilla had thought it important enough to pencil in. After all, the NRF and BRF are quite close.

Queen Fabiola's funeral was another occasion when the BRF looked rather rude, in my estimation. Other royals turned up.

Charles's marital situation in the 1990s came into play there too as far as attending things. I hope to see some closer relations in the future actually, with younger royals like William, Kate and Harry making some visits to European and Scandinavian monarchies, building some bridges, some friendly relationships.

 

[TLLK]

Good points Curryong and I do agree that the age difference between the Queen and DoE left them a bit out of synch with their European counterparts. Charles and Diana might have been able to establish new bonds with their European peers, but he was much older than most of them. IMO we've seen this happen with Edward and Sophie establishing relationships with those that they're close in age/stage with in life: Fred/Mary, Haakon/MM, W-A/Maxima, Felipe/Letizia etc..

William, Catherine and Harry are closer in age/stage with Victoria/Daniel and Guillaume/Stephanie IMHO. We've already seen the Cambridges being dispatched to events associated with WWI and now there are Scandinavian trips planned for the trio. I believe that it will help to reestablish some old ties.