Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

Because I think for protocol reasons they would use the title Prince and Princess of Hanover.

I know..I am not Warren...so I hope I do not offend by answering instead of him...

Maybe. But the Foreign Office would probably have to be consulted to ensure no offense to Germany, which does not recognize any of the former royal titles in the federal republic. There is no longer a Prince of Hanover.

It would be politically correct to address him the other way. Legally, he is Ernst-August, Prince von Hannover, so HRH Prince Ernst-August von Hannover is close enough.

 

[btsnyder]

I guess that makes sense, since Princess Louise was the first Princess Royal to marry someone of lower status. I wondered why George V didn't follow this tradition with Princess Mary, but perhaps since she had two sons, one of which was heir to an earldom, it wasn't seen as necessary.

In a similar verin, I've often wondered why Princess Anne declined a peerage for her husbands. I'm inclined to think she feels they're not worthy!

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Do you really think the German government, with all they are going through presently, gives a toss about Ernst August and his titles???

C'mon...they have bigger issues right now....

 

[branchg]

In a similar verin, I've often wondered why Princess Anne declined a peerage for her husbands. I'm inclined to think she feels they're not worthy!

I think Mark Phillips was adamant about not becoming a peer and Anne was fully supportive of his decision. They wanted their children to have a down-to-earth upbringing. But, of course, the Queen could grant Peter and Zara peerages at any time (most likely when they marry, at least in Peter's case).

With Tim Laurence, there was no reason to make him a peer since Anne wasn't going to have any children with him.

 

[kelly1972]

I have a feeling that Peter wouldn't accept a title as he has lived 28 yrs without one. Both Peter and Zara seem to be well adjusted people and are happy to live their lives without being titled.

 

[susan alicia]

Black days for Conrad's memorial | the Daily Mail


quote.............

No stranger to brushes with the law, the colourful Duke of Manchester has once again found himself in trouble. The eccentric aristocrat, who lives in California, has been involved in a confrontation with police near his Newport Beach home after a dispute over a restraining order between him and his ex-wife Wendy.
Alexander Montagu - or Lord Alex as he styles himself in the U.S. - claims that after a visit from police officers, he was left with an open wound the size of a fist on his chest.

Now the 44-year-old Duke says he has filed a £100million lawsuit against the local sheriff's department for his injuries. As a young man Montagu, whose father the 12th Duke was also a convicted criminal, did time in Australia for fraud and assault. "The judge said I'd swallowed the silver spoon," he tells Tatler magazine.

.......end quote

 

[susan alicia]

Duke of Clarence

Blackmail scandal first involving Royals in more than 100 years | the Daily Mail

 

[btsnyder]

Royal Dukes

Are there any active Dukedoms in the UK, older than the Dukedoms of Kent and Gloucester, that are originally descended from a Royal Duke? I think that all the Dukedoms conferred upon Queen Victoria's male children have all become extinct or merged back with the Crown. I've researched back to George III and I can't seem to find any.

 

[wbenson]

I can't find any, either. The closest ones out there are descendants of a few illegitimate children of Charles II, but they wouldn't have counted as royal.

 

[btsnyder]

Thanks, W. Anyone else find any?

 

[magnik]

Maybe it help?

List of Dukes in the Peerages of the British Isles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dukes in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dukes of the peerage of the united kingdom

 

[David Smith]

Albany and Cumberland

The Dukedoms of Albany and Cumberland were "suspended" during World War I because their current holders were supporting the German cause. However, I understand the possibility exists that they could be restored and that male heirs are still alive. The first Duke of Albany was Queen Victoria's youngest son, Leopold, while the current Cumberland Dukedom traces back to one of Queen Victoria's uncles.

 

[Royal Fan]

So who could claim them now??

 

[morhange]

Prince Andreas of Saxe-Coburg is the claimant to the Dukedom of Albany, and Prince Ernst August of Hannover is claimant to the Dukedom of Cumberland.

 

[morhange]

Actually, I'd forgotten, I don't believe royal dukedoms care about morganatic marriages, so the heir to Albany is Hubertus Prinz von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Duchy of York was first created in 1385, and was a landed dukedom until it merged with the Crown in 1461, when the holder became Edward IV. There have also been several Earls of York in medieval times. Since 1461, it has traditionally been the title for the second son of the Sovereign.

It can of course be inherited if the holder happens to have a son to inherit.

If Prince Andrew were to remarry and have a son that son would inherit the title and in a couple of generations, like Gloucester and Kent will have with the next holders, not have a royal designation.

It is is unusual that no holder of the Duke of York title has actually passed it to a son since the middle ages with each successive creation either having only daughters e.g. Prince Andrew or having no legitimate children at all e.g. Prince Frederick brother of George IV or merge with the crown when the holder becomes king e.g. George V and George VI.

I doubt that it would ever become Harry's title as it can't be recreated until after Andrew's death and I would assume that Harry would already have a title considering that Andrew is only 49. With the longevity of hisp parents he could easily live another 40 years making Harry in his mid-60s before the title becomes vacant. Even William's own second son may have a title by then.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

I totally agree with you. It will be interesting to see which dukedom befalls Prince Harry, because like you, I doubt he would inherit York for a number of years.

I'm sure he will be created Duke of something before the death of Andrew, and there are several for the royal family to choose from.

Cambridge, Sussex, Albany, and Clarence are all extinct royal titles. There were quite a few suggestions to make Prince Edward either Duke of Cambridge or Duke of Sussex upon his marriage, but he was created Earl of Wessex instead. Since he will become the Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his parents, that particular title will not be given to Prince Harry.

Most probably out of the running is Duke of Windsor, for obvious reasons, and Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, since an Irish peerage has not been revived or granted since their independence in 1922. Albany is disputed, since the male heirs of the 2nd Duke can petition for restoration of the title, and same is true for the Duchy of Cumberland.

Personally, I like HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of Sussex!

 

[Elspeth]

I wonder if he'd be created Earl of Something like Edward, in the expectation that eventually he'll take the Duke of York title probably during William's reign. On the other hand, it probably makes more sense for that title to wait for William's second son. At least that means it'll be longer before the York title leaves the royal family. I think it's a shame that the Gloucester title, with all its royal history, will no longer be royal when the present Duke dies.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Since he will become the Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his parents, that particular title will not be given to Prince Harry.

How may I ask do you know this?
I haven't heard it as fact that the title Duke of Edinburgh is definitely being given to Prince Edward after his parents death. Also why will it not be given to Harry?

 

[wbenson]

It is of course impossible to bind future monarchs on this type of action (so it will always be strictly possible that it won't go this way), but in 1999 the Palace stated that upon the death of the current Duke and the Queen, Edward would be created Duke of Edinburgh. The official website (rather sloppily) alludes to this:

Prince Philip’s youngest son, Prince Edward, will take the title on his death.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It is of course impossible to bind future monarchs on this type of action (so it will always be strictly possible that it won't go this way), but in 1999 the Palace stated that upon the death of the current Duke and the Queen, Edward would be created Duke of Edinburgh. The official website (rather sloppily) alludes to this:

Thank you for this information. I had known that it was sort of said and around about, but the way it was phrased above i thought something had been released this year that it was a definite. I also still don't understand why Prince Harry could not inherit the title first or after Edward.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Thank you for this information. I had known that it was sort of said and around about, but the way it was phrased above i thought something had been released this year that it was a definite. I also still don't understand why Prince Harry could not inherit the title first or after Edward.

Currently the heir to the Edinburgh title is Charles.

The stated intention is that Charles will inherit the Edinburgh title on the death of his father.

If that happens while the Queen is still alive then Charles will add the Edinburgh titles to his present titles and Edinburgh will merge with the crown when Charles becomes king.

If Philip outlives the Queen then the Edinburgh title will pass to Charles, who is already king, and so will automatically merge with the crown.

It is then intended to recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward.

However:

If Charles predeceases the Queen then the title would pass to William, who presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but....

If Charles and William predecease the Queen then that sitution reaches Harry, who again presumably would honour his grandmother's stated wish but...

There is a scenario whereby the title is not available for anyone to regrant it to Edward:

William marries and has a daughter (or a couple of daughters) but no son.
Charles, William and Philip die before the Queen leaving the daughter (or eldest daughter) as the Queen's heir - then Harry inherits directly the Edinburgh title and it doesn't merge with the crown.

The current succession to the Edinburgh title is the same as for the throne in the first four people.

So:

Philip dies
Charles dies
William dies
Queen dies
Harry inherits and it merges with the crown

add a daughter in their for William and it changes

Philip dies
Charles dies
William dies leaving the daughter as heiress apparent (can't be replaced by a son)
Queen dies
Harry becomes Duke of Edinburgh and Edward misses out.

The deaths above can happen in any order so long as the three men die before the Queen and William has a legitimate daughter and no sons.

Of course Edward could also inherit the Edinburgh title directly from his father - if

Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip (or again William and/or Harry leave only legitimate daughters) then the title would pass to Edward by direct inheritance (along with the Merioneth and Greenwich titles).

Harry can't inherit the title, as it is currently set up, from Edward as Edward has a son who would inherit it assuming that a new regrant would use the standard Letters Patent of 'heirs male of the body'. It would be strange to set LPs for a new title that grants the father only the title and not allow it to go to his son when his other titles - Wessex and Severn - will go to James.

There is no way that BP can say that Edward would definitely get the Edinburgh title as they are fully aware of the inheritance possibilities and so know that there is a chance that

a) Edward won't get it at all or
b) that he could get it through direct inheritance or
c) the most likely that he will get it as a regrant when it merges with the crown at Charles' accession.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Hang on so your telling me that Charles is next to get the title Duke Of Edinburgh, when Prince Phillip dies, and if Charles is king it merges with the crown?

What about Harry or Edward then, they're just left with nothing while the King and heir get titles??

William will become Prince Of Wales when his dad is king, there is little doubt about that.

But Charles will then also become Duke Of Edinburgh aswell as king.

If the succesion to the title of DofE is the same as the line of the succesion to the crown then why does it say on the royal website that it will go to Edward?

Styles and titles

Of course Edward could also inherit the Edinburgh title directly from his father - if

Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip (or again William and/or Harry leave only legitimate daughters) then the title would pass to Edward by direct inheritance (along with the Merioneth and Greenwich titles).

So your saying that Edward will only get the title IF Charles, William, Harry an Andrew die before Phillip?

List of titles and honours of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It also says here that after Edwards wedding it was announced that he would become the Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[AuroraB]

It would be up to Charles when he is king to regrant the title of Duke of Edinburgh to his brother Edward.

 

[Marsel]

Hang on so your telling me that Charles is next to get the title Duke Of Edinburgh, when Prince Phillip dies, and if Charles is king it merges with the crown?

What about Harry or Edward then, they're just left with nothing while the King and heir get titles??

Prince Charles is the Duke of Edinburgh’s eldest son, so he will inherit the title, unless his father survives him., in which his eldest son (William) will inherit it.
Prince Harry will most probably be granted a Dukedom upon his marriage. If he marries within the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth, letters patent will be issued by his grandmother, allowing his children (if they are born during the Queen's lifetime) to enjoy a royal and princely status to which they otherwise would not have been entitled.

If the succesion to the title of DofE is the same as the line of the succesion to the crown then why does it say on the royal website that it will go to Edward?

Styles and titles

So your saying that Edward will only get the title IF Charles, William, Harry an Andrew die before Phillip?

It also says here that after Edwards wedding it was announced that he would become the Duke of Edinburgh.

It has been announced that the title of the Duke of Edinburgh is intended to eventually go to Prince Edward. It is possible if:
1) Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all die without legitimate male heirs
2) If the title merges with the Crown, it can be then recreated for Edward.

Since the second option is the most probable one, it is almost certain that the Queen, Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince Edward have all agreed to act accordingly - that is, Charles (or William, if Charles predeceases his mother or father) with recreate the title for Edward once he is King.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

It has been announced that the title of the Duke of Edinburgh is intended to eventually go to Prince Edward. It is possible if:
1) Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all die without legitimate male heirs
2) If the title merges with the Crown, it can be then recreated for Edward.

Since the second option is the most probable one, it is almost certain that the Queen, Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince Edward have all agreed to act accordingly - that is, Charles (or William, if Charles predeceases his mother or father) with recreate the title for Edward once he is King.

There two other possibilities regarding the succession to the Dukedom of Edinburgh.

First:
If Prince Philip dies before the Queen, then both Prince Charles and Prince Andrew can formally renounce their rights to the Dukedom for themselves and their heirs, which would leave Prince Edward next in line to become Duke of Edinburgh. In this case, Edward would become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of his father's creation, rather than having a new creation granted to him.

It is even possible that both Charles and Andrew have done this already, in compliance with the wishes of their parents to give the title to Edward.. but we can't be sure of that.

Second:
The letters patent for the Duchy of Edinburgh could be amended to have the title revert to the crown upon the death of Philip. In which case, if the Queen outlives him it will be in her gift to re-create the Duchy for Edward. Or, if Philip outlives the Queen, then it would be Charles that would re-create the title for his brother.

Both of these scenarios are a lot less complicated than having Charles inherit Edinburgh, wait to become King, have his sons and Prince Andrew renounce their claim to the Duchy and then re-create the title for Edward.

 

[Marsel]

You are quite right, both options are possible. If Prince Philip dies before Charles is King, I believe the first option in your post is the most probable outcome, if renouncing the title is possible at all.
Just one note; if Charles inherits the Dukedom of Edinburgh and waits till he is King, I don't think his heirs or Prince Andrew would have to renounce anything, as the title would be merged with the Crown. The Monarch would then be free to have a new creation for Prince Edward.

 

[Kotroman]

There two other possibilities regarding the succession to the Dukedom of Edinburgh...

Actually, you are wrong.

1) I don't think that anyone can legally renounce the right to succeed to a title. The Peerage Act 1963 only enabled peers to disclaim their titles, but that person's heir could not hold the disclaimed title until the death of the person who disclaimed it. In other words, only Philip can disclaim the title of Duke of Edinburgh, but Charles would still succeed to the title after Philip's death.

2) I've never heard of letters patent being amended. When a change is wanted, simply a new title is created. That's what was done to enable Princess Alexandra of Fife to succeed to the Dukedom of Fife.

In the end, it's less complicated for Edward to be patient and wait for the current Dukedom to merge with the Crown.

Also, Philip holds the Dukedom of Edinburgh. There are only two duchies in the United Kingdom: the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Also, Philip holds the Dukedom of Edinburgh. There are only two duchies in the United Kingdom: the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall.

You are quite right on that one. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster and Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The succession to the Edinburgh dukedom follows that of the crown until Andrew because only the heirs male of the body can inherit that title and Philip's heirs are also The Queen's heirs.

If either William or Harry marry during the present reign I suspect that both of them will get their own dukedoms, meaning that at some point in the future William will be known as Duke of Cornwall and xxxx in the same way that George V was known as Duke of Cornwall and York for most of 1901. Only when, and if, William is created Prince of Wales would he cease to have be known usually by both those titles together. There is no guarantee that William will ever be Prince of Wales - although probable given some of the attitudes in Wales it is possible that Charles could be the last holder of that title.

The most likely way that Edward will get the Edinburgh dukedom is through Charles re-creating the title for his brother after he becomes king and the title merges with the crown.

That is what was announced in 1999 - that when the title merged with the crown it would be recreated for Edward.