Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022

[Dman]

Most likely when Charles come to the throne, Camilla, Catherine, Sophie and other senior royal ladies will recieve The Royal Family Order of King Charles III or whatever name he take on when King. The same can be said when William comes to the throne.

 

[Dman]

Obviously HM's opinion on what service merits recognition with one of her personal orders differs from some other people.

That's the best and simple way of putting it.

 

[AdmirerUS]

I hope when Charles becomes King he gives Sophie his Royal Family Order. It would only be right to do that, particularly is Sophie continues to do royal duties.

Sophie got her GCVO before Andrew and Edward were given theirs, though of course they were Members of the Garter.

If Charles does his own family order. The tradition dates back to the early 1800s and has gone from having several classes to only one. Usually awarded to 10-20 close female relations, Victoria awarded almost 100! I'll post something about this over in styles and titles and we can chat about that there, if there's interest.

 

[Artemisia]

Camilla is fourth in the private order of precedence for females. The Queen, The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra all take precedence ahead of her, but she takes precedence ahead of all others as the wife of the heir to the throne, including Sophie, Beatrice, Louise, Catherine, etc.

Are you certain about this, branchg?
It was my understanding that Camilla and other Princesses by marriage were ranked below all British Princesses by blood in the Private Order of Precedence.
That would mean Camilla ranks below not only Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra, but also Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie, and possibly Lady Louise as well.

 

[branchg]

Are you certain about this, branchg?
It was my understanding that Camilla and other Princesses by marriage were ranked below all British Princesses by blood in the Private Order of Precedence.
That would mean Camilla ranks below not only Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra, but also Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie, and possibly Lady Louise as well.

Yes, Camilla's place at court was confirmed by the Palace more than once. And the private order of precedence has never put all princesses of the blood ahead of princesses by marriage. It depends on the will of The Sovereign.

Wives of sons of The Sovereign usually outrank princesses of the blood at court, with the exception of The Sovereign's daughter or sister. For example, Princess Anne and Princess Margaret both outranked Diana at court, while she took precedence ahead of all others during her marriage.

 

[Artemisia]

Yes, Camilla's place at court was confirmed by the Palace more than once. And the private order of precedence has never put all princesses of the blood ahead of princesses by marriage. It depends on the will of The Sovereign.

Wives of sons of The Sovereign usually outrank princesses of the blood at court, with the exception of The Sovereign's daughter or sister. For example, Princess Anne and Princess Margaret both outranked Diana at court, while she took precedence ahead of all others during her marriage.

I see. Thank you for the clarification: I was not aware of the court confirming Camilla's place in Private Precedence list.
Taking into account the new information (new to me, that is), would you say the following lists are accurate?


The Official Order of Precedence
- The Queen
- The Duchess of Cornwall
- The Countess of Wessex
- The Princess Royal
- The Duchess of Cambridge
- Autumn Phillips
- Princess Beatrice
- Princess Eugenie
- Lady Louise
- Zara Phillips
- Lady Serena Stanhope
- Lady Sarah Chatto
- Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester
- Katharine, Duchess of Kent
- Princess Michael of Kent
- Patricia Lascelles, Countess of Harewood
- Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy

The Private Order of Precedence
- The Queen
- The Princess Royal
- Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy
- The Duchess of Cornwall
- The Countess of Wessex
- Duchess of Cambridge
- Autumn Phillips
- Princess Beatrice
- Princess Eugenie
- Lady Louise
- Zara Phillips

 

[Dman]

If the focus is on the "core" members of the royal family, that would be-
The Queen
The Duchess of Cornwall
The Duchess of Cambridge

 

[branchg]

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie take precedence ahead of Catherine, who is then followed by The Duchess of Gloucester, The Duchess of Kent and Princess Michael of Kent as HRH. Then comes females who do not hold royal rank or style.

Lady Louise is not likely to be noted at this point as she is a young child.

 

[Artemisia]

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie take precedence ahead of Catherine, who is then followed by The Duchess of Gloucester, The Duchess of Kent and Princess Michael of Kent as HRH. Then comes females who do not hold royal rank or style.

Lady Louise is not likely to be noted at this point as she is a young child.

But granddaughters of the Monarch (Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Zara) are usually below the wives of the Monarch's grandsons (Kate). If no specific stipulations were made about Kate's position, then shouldn't it be assumed her place is the same as in official precedence list - after the Countess of Wessex?

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

If the focus is on the "core" members of the royal family, that would be-
The Queen
The Duchess of Cornwall
The Duchess of Cambridge

Agree completely. The fact is the next two Queens will be Camilla and Catherine. Although precedence is fascinating, in 2012 none of the younger royals pay much attention to it. Again if you want to see who holds the 'power' in the BRF, look to the Diamond Jubilee.

 

[Dman]

I don't know. I was expecting the Palace to announce and Order of Precedence right after The Cambridges got married.

I think Catherine Precedence is position right after The Duchess of Cornwall, with The Queen's preference. Or right after The Countess of Wessex but mainly Camilla.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I don't know. I was expecting the Palace to announce and Order of Precedence right after The Cambridges got married.

I think Catherine Precedence is position right after The Duchess of Cornwall, with The Queen's preference. Or right after The Countess of Wessex but mainly Camilla.

That's my take on it. I'm talking about 'real world' precedence and the Duchess of Cambridge comes third after HM and the Duchess of Cornwall. The rest is just academic IMO

 

[branchg]

But granddaughters of the Monarch (Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Zara) are usually below the wives of the Monarch's grandsons (Kate). If no specific stipulations were made about Kate's position, then shouldn't it be assumed her place is the same as in official precedence list - after the Countess of Wessex?

I believe it was confirmed by the Palace that Catherine's precedence would follow Beatrice and Eugenie at court. Of course, from a practical point of view, if accompanied by William (which she usually is), her precedence follows The Queen and The Duchess of Cornwall as the wife of the spare to the throne.

 

[Artemisia]

I believe it was confirmed by the Palace that Catherine's precedence would follow Beatrice and Eugenie at court. Of course, from a practical point of view, if accompanied by William (which she usually is), her precedence follows The Queen and The Duchess of Cornwall as the wife of the spare to the throne.

That is interesting: I've never heard of Palace's confirmation of Kate's precedence.

One more question that interests me. If both Kate and Sophie are with their respective spouses, shouldn't Sophie (wife of the Sovereign's son) outrank Kate (wife of the Sovereign's grandson) official precedence wise? I'm asking because various publications, including credible ones, have put Sophie at the end of the pecking order (for senior royals), below Kate - and that doesn't sound quite right to me. Shouldn't Sophie outrank Kate both woman to woman and in presence of their husbands? The only situation when Kate should outranks Sophie is when William is present and Edward is not, at least the way I understand official precedence.

 

[Osipi]

That is interesting: I've never heard of Palace's confirmation of Kate's precedence.

One more question that interests me. If both Kate and Sophie are with their respective spouses, shouldn't Sophie (wife of the Sovereign's son) outrank Kate (wife of the Sovereign's grandson) official precedence wise? I'm asking because various publications, including credible ones, have put Sophie at the end of the pecking order (for senior royals), below Kate - and that doesn't sound quite right to me. Shouldn't Sophie outrank Kate both woman to woman and in presence of their husbands? The only situation when Kate should outranks Sophie is when William is present and Edward is not, at least the way I understand official precedence.

I think you have it correct here.

The male order of precedence after the Queen/King is the Prince of Wales/Duke of Rothesay, the sovereign's younger sons, the sovereign's grandsons, the sovereign's brothers and so on. Therefore with the husbands in attendance, Sophie would outrank Kate.

 

[Molly2101]

I think Sophie does outrank Kate in many circumstances, but I doubt it will ever really happen as Kate is the future Queen, whereas Sophie is only going to drop down the precedence ladder, sadly. (Queen Sophie FTW!) What I find funnier is Sophie's daughter outranks her.

 

[Artemisia]

As long as Elizabeth II is the reigning Monarch, it can and will happen, even if the accent in recent years has been placed with the Wales family.
Once Charles becomes King, Sophie will be down in the precedence list as the wife of the Monarch's brother, whereas Kate will be the wife of the Heir Apparent - second woman in the Kingdom after only the Queen Consort. Until then, Sophie has some time to enjoy her temporal higher ranking.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

All of this focus on the women but are people saying Andrew and Edward take precedence over the Duke of Cambridge? Can someone give me an example of where this has 'played' out in public?

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Last years Remembrance day had the spouses lined up together and the order was , the Duchess of Cornwall, the Duchess of Cambridge , the Countess of Wessex and Sir Tim Lawrence. If Sophie out ranks Catherine then why did she stand behind Catherine at the service?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Last years Remembrance day had the spouses lined up together and the order was , the Duchess of Cornwall, the Duchess of Cambridge , the Countess of Wessex and Sir Tim Lawrence. If Sophie out ranks Catherine then why did she stand behind Catherine at the service?

The way they stand on a balcony is now down to precedence as well? That makes no sense. They just stand the way they stand.

 

[Molly2101]

Last years Remembrance day had the spouses lined up together and the order was , the Duchess of Cornwall, the Duchess of Cambridge , the Countess of Wessex and Sir Tim Lawrence. If Sophie out ranks Catherine then why did she stand behind Catherine at the service?

Sophie stood beside Catherine, not behind. I don't believe they line up in order on the balcony, as over the years it has never appeared like that.

Andrew outranks Edward yet when the family attend The Festival of Remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall every year Edward and Sophie sit next to the Queen on their right; Charles and Camilla sit on their left, with Andrew and Anne behind them. Edward and Sophie leave after Andrew, but I find it odd that they sit directly beside the Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh, and it is not Andrew.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

royal etiquette - Topics - Macleans.ca

Clear as mud lol. This article says Catherine always has precedence over Sophie

 

[Artemisia]

royal etiquette - Topics - Macleans.ca

Clear as mud lol. This article says Catherine always has precedence over Sophie

I'm afraid that article simply rehearses previously published information most of which turned out to be incorrect.

 

[Dman]

The "core" members of the royal family is The Queen, Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[Artemisia]

The "core" members of the royal family is The Queen, Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge.

The core female members, or else you very heavily underestimate Prince Philip, Prince Charles, Prince William and Prince Harry.

All of this focus on the women but are people saying Andrew and Edward take precedence over the Duke of Cambridge? Can someone give me an example of where this has 'played' out in public?

There is a divided opinion on that issue.
Strictly speaking, Andrew and Edward should always have precedence over William and Harry. However, the Court Circular does list William and Harry above their uncles, suggesting they take precedence over them in a precedence list alternative to the official one. Thus, it could be said two Orders of Precedence exist for males as well, a private and an official one.

The Official Order of Precedence for Men:
- The Duke of Edinburgh (Sovereign’s consort) **
- The Duke of Cornwall (Sovereign’s eldest son)
- The Duke of York (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Earl of Wessex (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Duke of Cambridge (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Prince Harry (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Severn (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Peter Phillips (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Linley (Sovereign’s nephew)
- The Duke of Gloucester (Sovereign’s cousin)
- The Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent
- The Earl of Harewood
- The Honourable Gerald Lascelles

The Private Order of Precedence for Men:
- The Duke of Edinburgh (Sovereign’s consort) *
- The Duke of Cornwall (Sovereign’s eldest son)
- The Duke of Cambridge (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Prince Harry (Sovereign’s grandson)
- The Duke of York (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Earl of Wessex (Sovereign’s younger son)
- Viscount Severn (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Peter Phillips (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Linley (Sovereign’s nephew)
- The Duke of Gloucester (Sovereign’s cousin)
- The Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent

* The Sovereign’s eldest son and Heir Apparent to the Throne (Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay) should always have precedence over all other males in the Kingdom apart from the Sovereign (obviously if it’s a King). However, the Queen issued an Order-in-Council placing Prince Philip above all men in the Kingdom, except, when provided by Parliament, the Prince of Wales. In practice, that means Prince Philip is pretty much always the First Gentleman in the Kingdom.

 

[Kit]

I have said it once and I say it again: I will never understand this Order of Precedence stuff. And no wonder with all that different reports regarding who has precedence over whom. "sigh"

 

[NGalitzine]

The core female members, or else you very heavily underestimate Prince Philip, Prince Charles, Prince William and Prince Harry.


There is a divided opinion on that issue.
Strictly speaking, Andrew and Edward should always have precedence over William and Harry. However, the Court Circular does list William and Harry above their uncles, suggesting they take precedence over them in a precedence list alternative to the official one. Thus, it could be said two Orders of Precedence exist for males as well, a private and an official one.

The Official Order of Precedence for Men:
- The Duke of Edinburgh (Sovereign’s consort) **
- The Duke of Cornwall (Sovereign’s eldest son)
- The Duke of York (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Earl of Wessex (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Duke of Cambridge (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Prince Harry (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Severn (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Peter Phillips (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Linley (Sovereign’s nephew)
- The Duke of Gloucester (Sovereign’s cousin)
- The Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent
- The Earl of Harewood
- The Honourable Gerald Lascelles

The Private Order of Precedence for Men:
- The Duke of Edinburgh (Sovereign’s consort) *
- The Duke of Cornwall (Sovereign’s eldest son)
- The Duke of Cambridge (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Prince Harry (Sovereign’s grandson)
- The Duke of York (Sovereign’s younger son)
- The Earl of Wessex (Sovereign’s younger son)
- Viscount Severn (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Peter Phillips (Sovereign’s grandson)
- Viscount Linley (Sovereign’s nephew)
- The Duke of Gloucester (Sovereign’s cousin)
- The Duke of Kent
- Prince Michael of Kent
- The Earl of Harewood
- The Honourable Gerald Lascelles

* The Sovereign’s eldest son and Heir Apparent to the Throne (Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay) should always have precedence over all other males in the Kingdom apart from the Sovereign (obviously if it’s a King). However, the Queen issued an Order-in-Council placing Prince Philip above all men in the Kingdom, except, when provided by Parliament, the Prince of Wales. In practice, that means Prince Philip is pretty much always the First Gentleman in the Kingdom.

The Queens cousins George Harewood and Gerald Lascelles are dead so I think it is safe to say you can drop them from your list since they won't be showing up at court anytime soon.

 

[Artemisia]

I have said it once and I say it again: I will never understand this Order of Precedence stuff. And no wonder with all that different reports regarding who has precedence over whom. "sigh"

Kit, it's actually quite simple (well, not too complicated): precedence is based on the relation to the current Monarch.
The Official Precedence lists for both men and women are pretty straightforward and given below. For convenience, I've written all those who can be in the precedence lists:

The Official Order of Precedence for men:
- The King (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s consort (husband of a female Monarch – currently, Prince Philip) *
- The Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay (the Sovereign’s eldest son who’s also the Heir Apparent to the Throne – currently Prince Charles)
- The Sovereign’s younger sons based on primogeniture (currently, Andrew and Edward)
- The Sovereign’s grandsons based on primogeniture (currently, William, Harry, Viscount Severn, Peter Phillips)
- The Sovereign’s brothers based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s uncles based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s nephews based on primogeniture (currently, Viscount Linley)
- The Sovereign’s cousins based on primogeniture (currently, Prince Richard, Prince Edward, Prince Michael)

* Prince Philip’s position is not automatic: as noted in my previous post, The Prince of Wales should have held precedence over all men in the Kingdom, including his father. However, the Queen’s Order-in-Council granted Prince Philip pre-eminence over all men in the United Kingdom, including Prince Charles.


The Official Order of Precedence
- The Queen (whether Regnant or Consort – currently, Queen Elizabeth II)
- The Queens Dowager (most recent consort first – currently vacant)
- The Wife of the Sovereign’s eldest son (currently, Camilla)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s younger sons based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Sophie)
- The Sovereign’s daughters based on primogeniture (currently, Princess Anne)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s grandsons based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Kate and Autumn)
- The Sovereign’s granddaughters based on primogeniture (currently, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Zara)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s brothers based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- The Sovereign’s sisters based on primogeniture (currently vacant)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s uncles based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, vacant)
- The Sovereign’s aunts based on primogeniture (currently, vacant)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s nephews based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Lady Serena Stanhope)
- The Sovereign’s nieces based on primogeniture (currently, Lady Sarah Chatto)
- Wives of the Sovereign’s cousins based on their husbands’ primogeniture (currently, Birgitte, Katherine, Princess Michael and Dowager Countess of Harewood)
- The Sovereign’s cousins based on primogeniture (currently, Princess Alexandra)




It's the Private Precedence Lists that are somewhat confusing because the Queen can change them anyway she pleases at any time.

 

[Artemisia]

The Queens cousins George Harewood and Gerald Lascelles are dead so I think it is safe to say you can drop them from your list since they won't be showing up at court anytime soon.

And thanks yet again for correcting an awkward mistake of mine.

 

[Kit]

Ok the thing that always has me confused is this: if Sophie is alone with Kate and William who has precedence?? And who has precedence if there are just Kate and Sophie ?? I mean the official Order is quite clear on that subject with Sophie currently having Precedence BUT does this really change when Wills is with Kate ??