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  #1241  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:55 AM
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As expected, Don Sixto Enrique de Borbón-Parma y Bórbon-Busset (the uncle of the Duke of Parma), the self-proclaimed leader of "traditional Carlism" stuck a less conciliatory tone (link):

Two days after the separatist referendum convened in Catalonia by a seditious and illegitimate autonomous government, we still do not know whether the de facto government of Spain is going to fulfill its duty and prevent their celebration.

These are serious hours. The pro-separatist propaganda unleashed abroad has not been counteracted by the means available to the State. The government of Mariano Rajoy seems to continue the suicidal policy of ignorance towards the authentic Catalan tradition and in concessions to nationalism, which for many decades has been preparing the explosive situation that has now been unleashed.

Catalonia is a fundamental and inseparable part of the Crown of Aragón, which integrates the Spanish Monarchy. It is a Spanish region. Any argument to the contrary ignores reality and contradicts history.

It is painful to see how the region which, since the eighteenth century, stood out as the most counter-revolutionary and anti-jacobin* in Spain, is today largely controlled by the most extremist revolutionaries and the most radical Jacobins. For the more Jacobin or liberal the authoritarian centralism is in the Catalan nationalism, therefore the more anti-Catalan it is.

In 1872 my great-uncle Carlos VII restored the fullness of the privileges of the Crown of Aragón, and amongst these the rights of the Principality of Catalonia. The liberal conspiracy, supported by the lodges and by the foreign powers, prevented the victory of the legitimate King of Spain, which would have avoided the subsequent disasters.

Today it is necessary to prepare to defend the unity of the Spains, above all other demands, as the Carlist always did when the country was in danger. I ask the Carlists and all the Spaniards of good will, when necessary, to collaborate with the security forces and the Armed Forces to stop the separatist attempt and preserve the unity and independence of the country, whatever the attitude finally taken by the current Government.

Let us bear in mind the duty that many of us have sworn - I, too, as a legionary knight - before the red and golden flag.

* = The Jacobins were the most extreme anti-Bourbon faction during the French Revolution.
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  #1242  
Old 10-07-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I have read many commentators in West-European newspapers being surprised or disappointed that King Felipe played the card of the Government.

Of course the King did. He had no any other option. The King reigns, the Government rules. As in any constitutional monarchy. The commentators showed a surprising lack of understanding for the freedom a constitutional King has to speak out: namely none.

When Flanders wants to break away from Belgium, King Philippe will speak the words the Prime Minister has sanctioned. He has no other option. When Bavaria wants to leave the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, the Bundespräsident will speak the words the Chancellor has sanctioned. He has no other option. When rich and overwhelmingly "Remain" London wants to break away from the UK, the Queen will speak the words sanctioned by the Prime Minister. She has no other option.

Would King Felipe have exceeded the bandwith the Government allowed, he would risk a constitutional clash with the Government. And he has nothing to gain with that because trying to become in love with the Catalonian separatists is useless: they want a republic anyway, no matter what the King would have said and no matter which tone was used.
I wouldn't expect the King to say anything against the government line, personally, mainly for that reasons, I was surprised he said anything at all. He had to stick to the government line and that was always going to upset the Catalonia independence supporters.
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  #1243  
Old 10-07-2017, 11:49 AM
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(Another try after my previous one was not posted).

Indeed, tommy100. Nobody would expect the king to go against his own govenment but he had the option not to hold a speech (he wasn't forced to do so), or hold one in which he stronglh supported the government's position but also showed some regard for those holding a different opinion and at least critize the use of violence (on both sides if he didn't want to put the blame only on the police).

However, based on his verbal and non-verbal language it was clear that he fully supports the government's stance (the fire almost came out of his eyes; not just the words but also how he spoke them was very aggressive) and did not wish to unite but instead divide - as a way to defend the legal unity of Spain.
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  #1244  
Old 10-07-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
(Another try after my previous one was not posted).

Indeed, tommy100. Nobody would expect the king to go against his own govenment but he had the option not to hold a speech (he wasn't forced to do so), or hold one in which he stronglh supported the government's position but also showed some regard for those holding a different opinion and at least critize the use of violence (on both sides if he didn't want to put the blame only on the police).

However, based on his verbal and non-verbal language it was clear that he fully supports the government's stance (the fire almost came out of his eyes; not just the words but also how he spoke them was very aggressive) and did not wish to unite but instead divide - as a way to defend the legal unity of Spain.
Ever when the King is in Catalonia, be it Don Juan Carlos or Don Felipe, he is whistled, booed, yelled at, middle fingers are shown or even (for an example during the Copa del Rey) hundreds of naked asses are shown towards the royal loge. While Trump complains about kneeling during the Stars Spangled Banner, the King has to endure a deafening whistle-concert during the Marcía Real.

All this comes from a region which is not only the wealthiest of Spain but also has the biggest autonomy of all the Spains. From the cradle on the Catalonians are indoctrinated with an absurd hate towards Spain, the country which apparently "oppresses" them. In reality it is a hidden racism. The Catalonians see themselves as "Latin" and look down to the rest of Spain with dédain. The rest, that are the scions of the Moros (the Arabs), of the Gitanos (the Gypsies), the dumb countryside peasants of the Extremadura, etc. While they cultivate so-called "Catalan" things as playing bagpipes, dancing the sardana or building human towers, they look down to "backward Spain". That is the hidden poison in all this.

What the Catalans do not tell is that they owe the biggest debts of any Spanish region to the central Government. In no any Spanish region, since the Transition, the central Government has put so much resources in infrastructural works, in data communication, in reconstruction funds, culminating in the most succesful Olympics ever (Barcelona 1992), the start of an unbelievable renaissance. All this happened in the framework of the State of Spain, from a poor and underdeveloped region in 1975 to a region a par to other developed EU regions.

Still the storyline is the absurd hate against all and everything which is not Catalan and who is more symbolizing the so hated State as the King? Even the most honey-like tone would have been dismissed.

You thought the King could have said nothing. No. He could not. He is also the head of state for the people in Aragón, in Castilla, in Galicia, in Valencia, in Andalucía, in Asturias etc. People worrying about what is going on and wanting to hear El Rey about it.
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  #1245  
Old 10-07-2017, 01:13 PM
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In my first try I included that not speaking up would have been a very bad move but it was a possibility. Nobody forced him to speak the words he spoke in the way he spoke them.

And the King could have done the right thing even if he would have known that his acknowledgement of the unjustified violence by the police or a call for reconciliation would have been in vain.

I must say that I hear a lot about Catalan hatred towards Spain but I see a lot of hatred from Spaniards to Catalans well. It is a pity that it has come this far (on both sides).
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  #1246  
Old 10-07-2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
In my first try I included that not speaking up would have been a very bad move but it was a possibility. Nobody forced him to speak the words he spoke in the way he spoke them.

And the King could have done the right thing even if he would have known that his acknowledgement of the unjustified violence by the police or a call for reconciliation would have been in vain.

I must say that I hear a lot about Catalan hatred towards Spain but I see a lot of hatred from Spaniards to Catalans well. It is a pity that it has come this far (on both sides).
The King could never have said any word about the police before the Government said it. What the police did in Barcelona, was in order of the State. The same State of which Don Felipe de Borbón y Grecia is the King. Would he have excused for the way the police handled this, he would have laid the blame at the National Police and the Guardia Civil, pillars of the State and proud standard bearers of the monarchy. It was impossible for the King, he had to handle in the bandwith of the Constitution, exactly what he demands from the Catalonian politicians.
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  #1247  
Old 10-07-2017, 03:22 PM
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I don't think Felipe could have kept his silence. He's supposed to be the "guarantor" of Spanish unity. There were many comments online after the referendum asking where the king was and why would they keep a king if he just disappears at a time of crisis. He also swore to defend Spanish constitution, something his own father took great risk to usher in.

It's clear he's speaking to the rest of Spain and Catalans who opposed independence. People were confused after Sunday. Rajoy didn't speak. No officials spoke from Madrid's side whereas international press was running wild with photos of "police brutality". His speech was well received by his intended audiences, judging by comments online. His speech put the situation into context from Spain's perspective. Separatists wouldn't listen to him any way. They want a republic and have been whistling and disrespecting him for years.

I don't think he could condemn the police and Civil Guards before the government was able to confirm and acknowledge wrong-doings. BTW, the number of injuries has proven to be greatly exaggerated. Only 2 people were hospitalized. From I read,one was caused by anxiety attack and one had eye injury from rubber bullet. One woman who alleged that her fingers were broken by the police "one by one" retracted the story a day later after she got caught using that hand. She had an inflammation on her finger and that's why she had bandage.

I predicted long ago that if Catalonia independence comes about, all banks based in Catalonia would move out. It's materializing. Banks need to have access to European Central Bank (ECB) funding. Depositors also need to know their deposits are insured and they won't be devalued in a new currency. All these will be in doubt once Catalonia is out of the Euro zone.

Whether other companies will move depend on their market. For big companies that sell goods to the rest of Spain and EU market, independence will be a disaster. I'll bet a lot of them will move as well. Otherwise, they'll risk tariff and customer boycotts. The disregard separatists have with laws would also concern businesses. Businesses don't like uncertainty, especially when it comes to laws they have to operate under.
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  #1248  
Old 10-07-2017, 04:05 PM
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Protesters in Barcelona demand "unity" over Catalonia crisis


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  #1249  
Old 10-07-2017, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The King could never have said any word about the police before the Government said it. What the police did in Barcelona, was in order of the State. The same State of which Don Felipe de Borbón y Grecia is the King. Would he have excused for the way the police handled this, he would have laid the blame at the National Police and the Guardia Civil, pillars of the State and proud standard bearers of the monarchy. It was impossible for the King, he had to handle in the bandwith of the Constitution, exactly what he demands from the Catalonian politicians.
That's why I suggested previously he condemned violence in general. Or at least call for peace or dialogue or something that could be constructed as a sign of good will for those with a different opinion and a real resolution to the problem as 'just obey me, I don't care what you think' and I will defend one position (which I understand) no matter what (this is where I disagree, at what point would he have seen the need to condemn something?) is typically not the best response.

I am sure the king is happy that his words were received well by a large part of the Spanish population but I am sorry to see that he further fueled the hatred on both sides as a king should do the opposite. Glad to see the white marches as that seems exactly what is needed at these trying times.
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  #1250  
Old 10-07-2017, 04:32 PM
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I'm glad that Felipe spoke out about the referendum - even though royalty and politics generally aren't supposed to mix, I do feel that his voice was needed in this sticky situation. I agree with Somebody that not speaking up about it would have reflected badly on him, so it's good that he did.

Not surprised that the delightful auntie Henar spoke about the referendum.
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  #1251  
Old 10-07-2017, 06:18 PM
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Tonight on the Dutch weekly program Blauw Bloed (Blue Blood) the presenter asked the Spain-correspondent of the NOS (the Dutch equivalent of the BBC) why the King did not reach out and took the Government's side.

The correspondent was clear: from day one of his Reign, Don Felipe has shown a zest for an execution of his royal prerogatives exactly within the framework of the Constitution. And that Constitution is clear: the King has zero "own space". Everything he says is sanctioned by the Government. Nothing more than logic that he indeed expressed the view of the Government.

Besides this the correspondent pointed to the statistics. There are roughly two million die-hard separatists. There are 7,5 million Catalans. Some more than 5 million of them are eligible to vote. The King can and will not allow that 2 million rob 7,5 million Catalans from their Spanish nationality, their civil rights under the Constitution, their rights as a citizen of the European Union, let alone that the Constitution does not allow an unilateral seccession from the nation.
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  #1252  
Old 10-08-2017, 02:38 AM
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Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy refuses to rule out suspending Catalonia's regional autonomy

After the demonstrations at the weekend, where many people asked for both parties to talk to each other, Rajoy has ruled out talks, mediation or new elections while evoking §155 (taking away the autonomous status) remains an option.
He won't talk before the referendum is off the table and Catalonia government says they feel obliged to it. We'll see what happens on Tuesday when Carles Puigdemont plans to address Catalan Parliament, either to declare independence or to give an update on the next steps.
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  #1253  
Old 10-08-2017, 07:14 AM
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The editorial of La Vanguardia (Catalonia's largest newspaper):

We play catalunya

One week after the events of October 1, the picture is of an unprecedented gravity. The name of Catalonia is written on the chalkboard of conflicts that draw the attention of the powers of this world. To be on that board is not necessarily positive, as some strategists of Catalan independence believe, in a highly irresponsible way. "The world looks at us!" They exclaim. And that? What do we get this time that the world looks at us? We are not organizing an Olympic Games. We are doing the opposite of what the 1992 Olympic Games meant for Catalonia and Spain: we are now exhibiting before the world our disagreements, our resounding minorities that are not just a majority, our miscalculations, our incompetence for dialogue, our potential conflict; perhaps our self-destructive capacity. We are watched by the powerful of the world - each one with its own interests and ambitions -, the financial analysts look at us, who are not guided by feelings and smiles, the speculators look at us and the birds of prey look at us. The name of Catalonia, and with it, Spain, has been written on the chalkboard of problems with high destabilizing potential and financial markets have not been slow in reactions.

Nos jugamos Catalunya

Another article that speaks from Barcelona's point of view:

And who defends Barcelona ?

On Tuesday afternoon, television stations retransmitted live image of the leaders of the process dancing circle to the sound of L' stake in the plaza de la Universitat, in protest against police repression of the 1 - o. by tying their hands, as well as representatives political as Oriol Junqueras or Santi Vila - and leaders of those organizations that both influence the Government and whom nobody has not voted in a few elections, was the Mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau.

At the same time, in the city already detected symptoms that the political upheaval began to hurt, now Yes in the obvious way, the local economy. At a dinner between people from the world of culture, a European investor based in Barcelona took the floor: "I have little investment here because I always diversifico, but I began to sense that it was better to let go of them. so yesterday I asked a friend who runs a family very important office, what could I do to place them. And well, answered that it was too late, that ten days earlier as had been able to do it, but not anymore. Bad luck! "."

Signs multiplied. Everyone had spoken with someone or knew of someone that it brought a new worrying fact. The owner of a restaurant group warned that his bookings had declined drastically. A New York fashion agency canceled orders at a Barcelona signing for fear that it could not guarantee supplies (that had not been calculated by people who boasted months ago that Catalunya didn't need Spain because their markets were in the overseas; they did not contemplate that the Catalans could be considered unreliable exporters,

http://www.lavanguardia.com/opinion/...-defiende.html
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  #1254  
Old 10-08-2017, 07:37 AM
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The attitude of La Vanguardia is highly criticized, is an ambiguous newspaper, which has often been on the side of nationalism. They supported the Catalan government, until the speech of the King and the economic movement began to change everything.

Its owner is the Count of Godó, a noble of third generation, very good friend of Juan Carlos that granted to him also the Greatness of Spain. There is a movement in the Spanish nobility for King Felipe to remove the title of nobility for his betrayal of Spain.
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  #1255  
Old 10-08-2017, 08:00 AM
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The attitude of La Vanguardia is highly criticized, is an ambiguous newspaper, which has often been on the side of nationalism. They supported the Catalan government, until the speech of the King and the economic movement began to change everything.

Its owner is the Count of Godó, a noble of third generation, very good friend of Juan Carlos that granted to him also the Greatness of Spain. There is a movement in the Spanish nobility for King Felipe to remove the title of nobility for his betrayal of Spain.
Thanks for the info. I'm just glad someone FINALLY noticed the economic impact. It's way under-discussed IMO. As any divorce attorney can tell them: A hostile divorce would not be cheap.
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  #1256  
Old 10-08-2017, 09:53 AM
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Pro-Unity Rally Held In Barcelona Against Catalonian Independence

Imágenes y fotografías | Getty Images
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  #1257  
Old 10-08-2017, 10:17 AM
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Thank you lula, the 'silent majority' speaks at last !
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  #1258  
Old 10-08-2017, 10:47 AM
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A week on and thank God we now see mass protest against Catalonia independence in Barcelona.

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  #1259  
Old 10-08-2017, 11:43 AM
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I feel the secessionists have lost the momentum now. The Catalans were in a frenzy but now things are threaten to become a reality, people re-discover common sense.
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  #1260  
Old 10-08-2017, 12:58 PM
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I see only losers, Catalonia will not become independet, that's a joke anyway. Both Spain and EU will never allow it. Using the threat of a referendum as leverage is ok but not pulling it off, illegally.
If Catalonia suffers economically, Spain will suffer, too. Lots of burnt bridges once more.
The rift in society will remain for many years.
I wonder what comes after Rajoy, better or even worse for the country.
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