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Old 10-14-2021, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That's not impossible, but again the argument is also relevant to the change to nobility law which allowed unmarried fathers to pass on their titles. Prior to the law being changed, one could argue that if they could pass on their noble titles to children born out of wedlock, then more noblemen would have or legally acknowledge out of wedlock children.

Regarding the possible increase in maternal surnames, there is no way of knowing for a fact how removing the gender discrimination for titles would affect the choice of names, but my assumption is that it would make little difference. In Germany, a country with shared historical ties to the Netherlands, titles are part of the legal name and, as with other names, can be passed by women to their children. That being the case, most titled women continue to have their children take the name of their father alone.

The difference with Germany is that there the former titles do not exist anymore but have become surnames. A paternal or a maternal surname can be passed to children (or even a combination of both surnames). This is the actually exactly the same in the Netherlands.

But in the Netherlands a title of Nobility or a predicate is a separate part of a surname. It is a title or a predicate. So a gravin Wolff-Metternich can pass her surname to her sons or daughters but not her title. Her children will be Mr and Ms Wolff-Metternich, no graaf / gravin (count / countess) and no hooggeboren heer / vrouwe (highborn lord / lady).

In daily practice nobles seldom or never use their title anyway. It is Eelco Bosch van Rosenthal (a news anchor), he never uses his predicate Jonkheer. It is Sander Schimmelpenninck (a current affairs opinion maker), he never uses his title graaf.

A Dutch millionaire, Robert-Jan van Ogtrop (from a Dutch patrician family) is son of the Hungarian countess Pálffy de Erdőd and had the wish to have his mother's surname and title registered into the recognized and protected Nobility of an EU-memberstate. (Hungary does not know noble titles anymore). Via this way there would be legal counts and countesses Pálffy de Erdőd with their surname and title in passports and in official documents.

But when he learned he could indeed be known as Robert-Jan Pálffy de Erdőd in Dutch municipal administration, but not as a Count, he ended his attempt: there are already Pálffy de Erdőds walking around (see his mother). His aim was exactly to have the noble title formally enregistered.

Was Robert-Jan van Ontrop a German, he could have wished to be known as Robert-Jan Graf Pálffy de Erdőd and his descendants as well, as this is "just" a surname in Germany. So suddenly there would be Grafen and Gräfinnen Pálffy de Erdőd walking around, who are not at all a male-line descendant to a Pálffy de Erdőd. That is a situation the Dutch Government finds "undesireable" and undermining the historic institution of Nobility.
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  #82  
Old 10-28-2021, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The nobility laws changed in the 90s to include children that were born out of wedlock, they can now inherit titles (which Willem-Alexander's cousin Carlos knows very well given that his son that he has no relationship with used to become a Royal Highness and prince de Bourbon de Parme).

I am not sure what the rules are regarding children born from other parents than the one in a marriage in the case of nobility (for example adoption, egg cell donation, sperm cell donation (or both) from either a known or unknown donor etc). Nonetheless, as the PM said: that will be discussed if the need ever arises.
In regard to nobility laws, as opposed to the laws of royal succession, the Council of State ruled that the clause "children born out of wedlock" is inclusive of adoptive children. I assume then that it also extends to children born from egg or sperm cell donation.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/adel/wet-op-de-adeldom


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
So suddenly there would be Grafen and Gräfinnen Pálffy de Erdőd walking around, who are not at all a male-line descendant to a Pálffy de Erdőd. That is a situation the Dutch Government finds "undesireable" and undermining the historic institution of Nobility.
Yes, but descendants of unmarried couples bearing titles of nobility is also a situation at odds with the historic rules, which undermines the Government's claim that their opposition to female succession is out of a simple desire to maintain the historical laws of nobility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But in the Netherlands a title of Nobility or a predicate is a separate part of a surname. It is a title or a predicate. So a gravin Wolff-Metternich can pass her surname to her sons or daughters but not her title. Her children will be Mr and Ms Wolff-Metternich, no graaf / gravin (count / countess) and no hooggeboren heer / vrouwe (highborn lord / lady).
I understand. The point I was attempting to make was that in the Netherlands, the title cannot be passed on in the absence of the surname, even though the surname can be passed on without the title.
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