Prince John (1905-1919)


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Tender letters from the 'Lost Prince'
By Andrew Alderson
(Filed: 12/01/2003)

A newly-discovered collection of letters and photographs has provided a fascinating insight into the troubled life of Prince John, who, had he lived beyond the age of 13, would have been the Queen's uncle.

The memorabilia has surfaced, coincidentally, just days before a £5.5 million drama on the prince is screened by the BBC. The Lost Prince will tell the story of the sixth and youngest child of George V and Queen Mary, who died, aged 13, in 1919, from a severe epileptic fit.

The letters were written and the photographs taken at Sandringham, the Royal Family's private estate in Norfolk where the prince spent much of his life hidden from the public because of his epilepsy and backwardness.

The memorabilia reveals that Prince John wrote short but thoughtful and affectionate notes using large, joined letters. They were written shortly before his death.

The collection is worth thousands of pounds but, because of its Royal origins, is unlikely to be offered for sale. It belongs to Anne Sharp, from Kent, who inherited it from her mother, Winifred Thomas who died in 1980, aged 75. As a child, Mrs Thomas had befriended the young prince when he lived at Sandringham.

Winifred, who was the same age as the prince and the niece of a groom, George Stratton, at Sandringham, became his closest companion. They spent a great deal of time cycling and travelling by pony and trap around the royal estate.

One short, undated letter from the prince to Mr Stratton, inquired how he was as he recovered from a broken arm. Written on Royal crested notepaper, it reads: "Dear Mr Stratto. I hope yor arm is better. Are you going to chaach. With my love from John."

One photograph shows Prince John wearing a smart, Royal Navy-style tunic and white trousers, sitting in a chair. Other photographs show him dressed in a smart, dark suit, smiling gently.

The existence of the letters and photographs has emerged because Mrs Sharp approached the BBC's Antiques Roadshow to get them valued. Clive Farahar, the programme's antiques expert who studied them, said he had never seen such a collection of memorabilia of Prince John. He estimated that the letter to Mr Stratton is worth up to £1,500 and each photograph is worth up to £700. Prince John is buried in the churchyard at Sandringham beneath a plain grey rounded tombstone of smoothed granite. On it are the simple words: "HRH Prince John, 1905-1919."

Prince John was one of five brothers, including the future Edward VIII and George VI and was fifth in line to the throne.

Prince John spent the last four years of his life at York Cottage on the Sandringham estate, where he was looked after by his devoted nurse, Charlotte "Lalla" Bill. When he travelled to London for a meeting with royal doctors, his car had its blinds drawn in case he brought "disgrace" to the family by having a seizure in public.

The two-part BBC drama, written by Stephen Poliakoff, begins next Sunday. Mr Poliakoff said yesterday that he had studied more than half a dozen other letters written by Prince John, along with Queen Mary's diary, which are in the royal archive at Windsor.

George V had a reputation for being fierce, stern and prone to rages. Letters seen by Mr Poliakoff, however, suggest affection from Prince John towards his father. One, dated February 16, 1916, says: "Dear Papa, I'm sending a box of snowdrops for you which I have picked."

Anecdotes discovered by Mr Poliakoff suggest that Prince John was a sensitive boy who often took things said to him too literally. After the death of Edward VII, his grandfather, he was told that dead people "went on the wind". Days later, he was seen collecting leaves and when asked what he was doing replied: "Collecting grandpa's pieces."

Mr Poliakoff said there had been a mixed reaction from the Royal Family to Prince John's death. His eldest brother, later Edward VIII and the Duke of Windsor, said brutally that "the animal" had died and bemoaned the fact that the family had to mourn him.

Their mother, Queen Mary, however, wrote in her diary after the funeral: "Miss the dear child very much indeed." Gina McKee, the actress who plays Lalla Bill, said: "The pictures show him to be an attractive young chap, big wide open eyes, and someone who just clearly wanted friends. I was amazed when they turned up - I had no idea at all that they existed. His handwriting was big and bold and clearly readable, but it looked as if he'd had difficulty in getting his thoughts onto the page," she said.

Miss McKee plans to visit Prince John's grave at Sandringham. "It's somewhere that I'd really like to go, just to pay my respects."
 
Prince John of the United Kingdom

(Wikipedia)

HRH John Charles Francis, Prince of the United Kingdom and Ireland (12 July 1905 - 18 January 1919), son of King George V of the United Kingdom and his wife née Mary of Teck, was a little known member of the royal family: as an epileptic he was kept away from the public eye.

Prince John was born at York Cottage, Sandringham, Norfolk, and was baptised 3 August 1905 at St. Mary Magdalen Church, Sandringham, Norfolk. He had his first epileptic seizure at age four. He was sometimes excluded from official family photographs and did not attend his father's coronation in 1911. In 1917 he was sent, with a nanny and male attendants, to Wood Farm on the Sandringham estate, and did not ever see his parents again. He died in his sleep at Wood Farm, Wolferton, Norfolk, England. The King and Queen drove the three miles from their Sandringham estate to view his body: he was buried 21 January 1919 at Sandringham Church, Norfolk.

The name "John" has been considered unlucky and its use avoided by the royal family since the death of the prince. (It was reported that Diana, Princess of Wales wished to name her elder son "John", after her own father, but was prevented from doing so by royal tradition).
 
thank you for the story

have someone seen this movie?
 
How many sones have Queen Mary. And what is the order of birth???????????
 
These are (were) Queen Mary's sons:
Edward, Prince of Wales
Henry, Duke of Gloucester
Albert, Duke of York
George, Duke of Kent
John
Of course, they did have one daughter, too. :heart:
Forgot to add thanks to the poster for the fascinating article. It's so interesting to compare how epilepsy was thought of in that day and how it is now. Parellels may even be drawn with Tsarevitch Alexei and hemophilia, which was also misunderstood in that time, I think. A very enjoyable article.
 
Thanks.
So Jonh is the younger? The name that you put they are not for other,is that true? Because Albert is the second son, father of queen Elizabeth. Why when he became king he is met for George????????
 
Yes, sorry. Albert later became George when he became King after the abdication of his brother, Edward (later the Duke of Windsor). That's how most people know him as King George VI, father of the present Queen. Sorry! :eek:
 
Is no probleme. I just don't understendwhy he change name. Albert is so great name :heart: :heart: :heart:
 
Mmmm, that is a good question. I don't really have an answer, though, unless he just wanted to continue his father's name, and not use Albert. I've heard that the QM Elizabeth always referred to him in private as "Bertie." :p
 
Originally posted by Jackswife@Feb 20th, 2004 - 12:14 pm
Mmmm, that is a good question. I don't really have an answer, though, unless he just wanted to continue his father's name, and not use Albert. I've heard that the QM Elizabeth always referred to him in private as "Bertie." :p
He/ his advisors wanted to continue his father's name and associate himself with his reign. After the abdication crisis, it was thought as prudent.
 
I posted a very long article on Prince John on another forum last year. If anyone is interested I can look in archives and repost it here or provide a link. Let me know.
 
My grandfather, my father in honor ( that is the frist grand son) and my brother have the name of Albert and is a name that i like a lot. Normally we call the for "Bertie."
Thanks Sean.~. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Sean, I for one would be very interested in your earlier article about Prince John. I confess I know so little about him :cry: and it would be nice to get more info on him. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by Jackswife@Feb 20th, 2004 - 12:30 pm
Sean, I for one would be very interested in your earlier article about Prince John. I confess I know so little about him :cry: and it would be nice to get more info on him. Thanks.
Hi Jackswife,

Actually, it isn't as long and detailed as I thought it was. In any case, here it is (Ignore the bit about Crown Prince Carol of Roumania. It has to do with another discussion forum):

Born on the 12th of July 1905, he was the youngest child of then Prince and
Princess of Wales. At first, he appeared quyite normal and, unlike his
"nervous brothers", he was a happy child. However, soon it became clear that
he was growing a bit too fast. By the age of 12 he was a big boy. By then he
had also severly epeleptic. From 1916 on, he lived in his own establishment
at Wood Farm at Wolfterton, (near Sandringham). Thus he was out of the
public eye and was cared for by his nurs Lalla Bill and and orderly.

The reasons for his isolation were many. This was an age when abnormal
children (and adults) were dismissed by society as mentally handicapped.
They were a source of shame to their families (even more so for a Royal
Family). There were also no drugs available to controls seizures. Thus the
King and Queen couldn't risk their son having a seizure in public and the
press reprorting it. Thus, although it sounds cruel by today's standards,
isolating him was the only choice the Royal Family had, given the time and
place. It was also beneficial for him, for it allowed him to avoid the
rigours of public life. Moreover, according to Brenda Ralph Lewis, Queen
Mary spent more time with him than any of her other children. And she was
struck hard by his death, although she never showed it (this reminds of the
letter from Queen Marie to the then Crown Prince Carol that I posted here
the other day. Some of you may recall how she wrote about carrying on her
duty even though her young son had just died and that she kept her tears
for the night).

In any event, his parents were not with him on the early morning of January
18, 1919, when he died after a severe epeleptic fit. He was burried 3 days
in a private funeral at Sandringham Church.

Queen Mary wrote: ""Litle Johnnie looked very peaceful...He just slept
quietly in his heavenly home, no pain, no struggle, just peace for the
roubled spirit". (Royalty Magazine vol. 14 no.8)
 
Originally posted by Jackswife@Feb 20th, 2004 - 12:52 pm
:cry: Wow. Such a sweet and sad story. Thanks very much for it.
Yes, it is very sad. When one considers time and place, oen can have sympathy for Queen Mary, who is often portrayed as a bad mother. In any case, you're very welcome!! :flower:
 
The biography of Mabell, Countess of Airlie (one of Queen Mary's ladies in waiting), "Thatched with Gold," includes part of her memoirs which have some interesting insights into Queen Mary's relationships with her children. She said:

"King George V and Queen Mary have often been depicted as stern unloving parents, but this they most certainly were not. Remembering them in my early days at Sandringham, before their ramily was even complete, I believe that they were more conscientious and more truly devoted to their children than the majority of parents in that era. The tragedy was that neither had any understanding of a child's mind. They themselves had been brought up in particularly loving homes - Queen Alexandra had an almost cloying affection for her son; the Duchess of Teck was an adoring mother to Princess May - but they did not succeed in making their own children happy."
Prince Goerge was fond of his sons but his manner to them alternated between an awkward jocularity of the ind which makes a sensitive child squirm from self-consciousness, and a severity bordering on harshness.
Princess May's attitude to parenthood I could well understand, for it was much the same as my own. Although she disliked the routine of child-bearing, and had no interest in her children as babies, she grew to love them dearly when they were older. But the difference between us was that while I, being a commoner, could keep in step with my children as they passed from babyhood into childhood and adolescence, she was prevented by her position and her public life from having this close contact with hers. When they reached an interesting age, and began to develop personalities, her sons were taken from her and delivered over to tutors. Her only opportunity of getting to know them as indivuals was during the hour they spent with her in the evening, and that is not enough to create a happy relationship between child and parent."
 
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Let us not forget what Queen Mary saw, 3 sons die-John,George,Albert(George VI)
one son abdicate his throne(Edward) and another become a alcoholic(Henry)
thats enough to hurt any mother!
 
I have always seen this poor little boy mentioned and always felt so bad for a child shunned by his family no matter what the social mores of the time were. The child died with his Nanny--but Nanny was undoubtably more a parent than George and Mary. :cry:
 
micas said:
Is no probleme. I just don't understendwhy he change name. Albert is so great name :heart: :heart: :heart:

After the abdication crisis, Albert wanted to take name George as a symbol of continunity of the reign of his father, George V (who had been much respected). Also Albert was too German sounding of a name, and there was still a lot of Anti-German sentiment left over WWI and the rise of Nazism (not to mention the Duke and Duchess of Windsor support of Hitler).
George, on the other hand, is a very English name. Saint George is the patron saint of England (like St. Andrew is to Scotland, St. David to Wales, and St. Patrick to Ireland). Englishmen are also knighted "by the order of Saint George." The English nat'l flag (not the union jack but the one used at all the world cup games) features the Cross of Saint George.
 
Elise said:
Prince John of the United Kingdom
The name "John" has been considered unlucky and its use avoided by the royal family since the death of the prince. (It was reported that Diana, Princess of Wales wished to name her elder son "John", after her own father, but was prevented from doing so by royal tradition).

Also, the only English king named John (aka evil Prince John from the Robin Hood stories) is historically considered a weak and incompetent ruler. (from wikipedia)
 
Here is a pics of Prince John, with Prince George and their cousin Crown Prince Olav of Norway(from getty):
 
Jackswife said:
Yes, sorry. Albert later became George when he became King after the abdication of his brother, Edward (later the Duke of Windsor). That's how most people know him as King George VI, father of the present Queen. Sorry! :eek:

Edward VIII was known as David by relatives and friends. The Princess Royal was Mary, born in 1897 , later Duchess of Fife.
 
micas said:
Is no probleme. I just don't understendwhy he change name. Albert is so great name :heart: :heart: :heart:

no King in UK has ever been named Albert, he was named that way at his birth as David, whose name was a King's one, Edward, not him, had to succeed George V.
 
Elspeth said:
The biography of Mabell, Countess of Airlie (one of QWueen Mary's ladies in waiting), "Thatched with Gold," includes part of her memoirs which have some interesting insights into Queen Mary's relationships with her children. She said:

"King George V and Queen Mary have often been depicted as stern unloving parents, but this they most certainly were not. Remembering them in my early days at Sandringham, before their ramily was even complete, I believe that they were more conscientious and more truly devoted to their children than the majority of parents in that era. The tragedy was that neither had any understanding of a child's mind. They themselves had been brought up in particularly loving homes - Queen Alexandra had an almost cloying affection for her son; the Duchess of Teck was an adoring mother to Princess May - but they did not succeed in making their own children happy."
Prince Goerge was fond of his sons but his manner to them alternated between an awkward jocularity of the ind which makes a sensitive child squirm from self-consciousness, and a severity bordering on harshness.
Princess May's attitude to parenthood I could well understand, for it was much the same as my own. Although she disliked the routine of child-bearing, and had no interest in her children as babies, she grew to love them dearly when they were older. But the difference between us was that while I, being a commoner, could keep in step with my children as they passed from babyhood into childhood and adolescence, she was prevented by her position and her public life from having this close contact with hers. When they reached an interesting age, and began to develop personalities, her sons were taken from her and delivered over to tutors. Her only opportunity of getting to know them as indivuals was during the hour they spent with her in the evening, and that is not enough to create a happy relationship between child and parent."

Queen Mary and Q Alix had often nasty arguments over spoiling her grandkids, John included, but that irritated so much Q Mary as she herself was not able to be a doting mum as Alix had been to her own kids- in fact, Alix's first son, Eddy, was backward, but his owm mum loved him dearly and was so schocked at his sudden death at 28, George V, when still a boy, loved his older brother Eddy, but he later was not able to show affection to his own kids, that's why David was so weird.... I can't believe David was so happy --the animal- had died ! He must have been a very cruel man, never liked him, never.
 
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emily62_1 said:
Edward VIII was known as David by relatives and friends. The Princess Royal was Mary, born in 1897 , later Duchess of Fife.

Princess Mary became Countess of Harewood; I think you're thinking about the previous Princess Royal, Louise, the eldest daughter of Edward VII, who became Duchess of Fife.
 
I was reading an interesting article today in Majesty magazine about Prince John. The author of the article vehemently asserts that John was not the pariah that has come down through written books for the last 86 years.

The article states that Prince John was present at certain Royal functions, such as the funeral of his Grandfather King Edward VII. He did not ride in a carriage, but was at a royal home along the route to salute his Grandfather. It was also noted that some of the Royal Family waved to the boy from the cortege! There was also a picture of Prince John with his family in 1916, only about 3 years before his death.

The article goes on to say that Queen Mary looked for playmates for Prince John when he lived at York Cottage. A Miss Winifred Stratton became Prince John's closest friend next to his beloved nanny, Lala Bill. It says that the Prince and Winifred played almost everyday, exchanged presents etc. Miss Stratton had many postcards autographed from Prince John which are now in her descendants' possession.

Around 1917, Prince John was doing poorly (his seizures stronger and more frequent) and the doctors told Queen Mary that Prince John would not live to see adulthood. Upon this advice, Queen Mary had Prince John and his nanny moved to Wood Farm for a better environment, and more room for the Prince hoping to make whatever time he had left in his life to be more comfortable. Winifred Stratton last visited Prince John just a month before his death in 1919.

The article ends by stating that many of the descendants of the servants who knew Prince John are quite upset and appalled about how this young boy and his life have been portrayed. They say Prince John was much happier and loved than any of what we have known from the various written sources.
 
Elspeth said:
Princess Mary became Countess of Harewood; I think you're thinking about the previous Princess Royal, Louise, the eldest daughter of Edward VII, who became Duchess of Fife.

sure, sorry, that was Louise.
 
tiaraprin said:
I was reading an interesting article today in Majesty magazine about Prince John. The author of the article vehemently asserts that John was not the pariah that has come down through written books for the last 86 years.

The article states that Prince John was present at certain Royal functions, such as the funeral of his Grandfather King Edward VII. He did not ride in a carriage, but was at a royal home along the route to salute his Grandfather. It was also noted that some of the Royal Family waved to the boy from the cortege! There was also a picture of Prince John with his family in 1916, only about 3 years before his death.

The article goes on to say that Queen Mary looked for playmates for Prince John when he lived at York Cottage. A Miss Winifred Stratton became Prince John's closest friend next to his beloved nanny, Lala Bill. It says that the Prince and Winifred played almost everyday, exchanged presents etc. Miss Stratton had many postcards autographed from Prince John which are now in her descendants' possession.

Around 1917, Prince John was doing poorly (his seizures stronger and more frequent) and the doctors told Queen Mary that Prince John would not live to see adulthood. Upon this advice, Queen Mary had Prince John and his nanny moved to Wood Farm for a better environment, and more room for the Prince hoping to make whatever time he had left in his life to be more comfortable. Winifred Stratton last visited Prince John just a month before his death in 1919.

The article ends by stating that many of the descendants of the servants who knew Prince John are quite upset and appalled about how this young boy and his life have been portrayed. They say Prince John was much happier and loved than any of what we have known from the various written sources.


Elizabeth the II would even deny the evidence- I only know that his parents never went to Wood Farm to visit their son the last 3 years of his life- he was not allowed to be present at his own papa's coronation, even at his grandpapa's funeral, he had to stay in a secluded house, not on the carriage with his relatives, why not, he was ill, so what, his right was to be with the others...... no1 has ever tried to conceal Prince Eddy from public and his appearance was really weird, while poor John was so handsome.... could u plz post the pic of him when he was 11?
 
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