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  #2061  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
To be fair, he did express some concern for the plight of people who were suffering because of the Depression - and it really was very bad here in Northern England, and in parts of Wales and Scotland too. But he certainly had Nazi sympathies, and he said after the war, even when people knew about the Holocaust, that Britain should have stayed out of it. And he did lead a hedonistic lifestyle - OK for a few years when he was young, but he hadn't changed even when he was in his 40s and he was king. He would have been a disaster as a wartime king.
When I was a kid, I thought the story of the Windsors was the greatest love story ever; that changed when I got old enough to learn about the British history/WW II. David/Edward VIII was selfish, self-indulgent and everything his father said he was and worried he’d become. His Nazi sympathies are sickening, frankly. Disaster is putting it mildly. Fortunately Bertie was everything his brother was not
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  #2062  
Old 01-30-2020, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
When I was a kid, I thought the story of the Windsors was the greatest love story ever; that changed when I got old enough to learn about the British history/WW II. David/Edward VIII was selfish, self-indulgent and everything his father said he was and worried he’d become. His Nazi sympathies are sickening, frankly. Disaster is putting it mildly. Fortunately Bertie was everything his brother was not
His concern for the poor was pretty superficial.. he said that "something must be done" about unemployment, when he had decided to give up his throne..and he was a disaster during WWII, flirting with treason, and didn't think that Hitler was a bad chap, even after the war. He did an OK job as Prince in the 1920s but he became bored with the Royal job, by the time he was nearing the throne...
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  #2063  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:38 PM
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He would have been a political king & probably have overstepped his remit causing a crises at some point.

His brother was definitely the better man although he too made mistakes. When Chamberlain returned from Munich the king invited him onto the palace balcony in a blatantly partisan show of support for a pm. Goodness knows what David would have done if he'd still been king in 1938. Doesn't bear thinking about.
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  #2064  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:57 PM
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He would have been a political king & probably have overstepped his remit causing a crises at some point.

His brother was definitely the better man although he too made mistakes. When Chamberlain returned from Munich the king invited him onto the palace balcony in a blatantly partisan show of support for a pm. Goodness knows what David would have done if he'd still been king in 1938. Doesn't bear thinking about.

You're right - I'd rather not think what would have happened had he been King; world history could very well have changed. I shudder to think about those changes.
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  #2065  
Old 01-30-2020, 03:10 PM
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You're right - I'd rather not think what would have happened had he been King; world history could very well have changed. I shudder to think about those changes.
He would have been removed in some unprecedented constitutional act that might even have led to to the establishment of a republic. The other possibility might have been a regency similar to the post ww1 Hungarian government under General Horthy (but obviously a democratic version!).
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  #2066  
Old 01-31-2020, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
He would have been removed in some unprecedented constitutional act that might even have led to to the establishment of a republic. The other possibility might have been a regency similar to the post ww1 Hungarian government under General Horthy (but obviously a democratic version!).
I don't think that David would have changed the fate of nations, really. If he had stayed as King, I think he might have been pressured into abdication iwhtin a few years because of his erratic and lazy behaviour. If he had been King when Hitler started war, and the Allies had won, again he would certainly have had to abdicate because he would have problaby been seen as "friendly to the enemy".. Mabye the monarchy would have ended, or it might have been like Belgium where the King had to go and the throne went ot the next heir...
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  #2067  
Old 01-31-2020, 02:15 PM
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I don't think that David would have changed the fate of nations, really. If he had stayed as King, I think he might have been pressured into abdication iwhtin a few years because of his erratic and lazy behaviour. If he had been King when Hitler started war, and the Allies had won, again he would certainly have had to abdicate because he would have problaby been seen as "friendly to the enemy".. Mabye the monarchy would have ended, or it might have been like Belgium where the King had to go and the throne went ot the next heir...
Yes, that all sounds very plausible.

On the other hand a crises might have come about if he had refused to abdicate. James ii was declared to have abdicated but he had already fled the country. A monarch who refused to go really would be a constitutional nightmare.
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  #2068  
Old 01-31-2020, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Yes, that all sounds very plausible.

On the other hand a crises might have come about if he had refused to abdicate. James ii was declared to have abdicated but he had already fled the country. A monarch who refused to go really would be a constitutional nightmare.
I doubt if he would have refused. He was happy to go over Wallis.. except when he realised that it was really "Im not king anymore".. that he may have had a few doubts.
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  #2069  
Old 01-31-2020, 05:38 PM
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I doubt if he would have refused. He was happy to go over Wallis.. except when he realised that it was really "Im not king anymore".. that he may have had a few doubts.
I'm sure you're right about that.

It does raise the intriguing question of what would happen if some monarch ever did refuse to go but I don't want to go off topic.
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  #2070  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:24 PM
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A letter on King Edward VIII's Abdication
Archbishop Lang told Stanley Baldwin that Edward had undergone treatment for alcoholism using hyptnotism.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2136672

Once he was King, why did Edward VIII pose for his State portrait in his Coronation robes if he planned to abdicate?
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  #2071  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:19 PM
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I'm sure you're right about that.

It does raise the intriguing question of what would happen if some monarch ever did refuse to go but I don't want to go off topic.
Well, there was Charles I ... although I suppose he wasn't really offered the option of just leaving the country! Or Richard II and Edward II, who were both locked up in castles where they conveniently "died". Probably best not to go there! There are a load of "social contract" theories, from the time of James II, about whether or not it's OK to depose a monarch who's deemed to have behaved in a way that breaches the "contract" between them and their subjects, but whether they'd be dragged up over 300 years on is another story.
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  #2072  
Old 02-28-2020, 06:00 PM
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The problem with the "establishment wanted to get rid of David-the-threat and were looking for any excuse" theory is that would have required one member of said Establishment to express glee when David wanted to marry Wallis -- because it would get him out (so, no, Churchill doesn't count and was debatably Est. at the time, anyway).

That didn't happen. It was all more continued shock, horror, and dismay.

[He was most probably a threat. He was certainly sloppy and poorly committed to anything other than himself, as King. The ones who had to deal with him may well have wanted him gone. And yet, when he served up his Crown on a silver platter... no one was happy.]
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  #2073  
Old 02-28-2020, 07:31 PM
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I watched the CNN Windsor show last night, the one that focused on George VI (my favorite Royal).......and they talked about how David constantly phoned his brother, offering advice, and generally just becoming so much of a pest that the King had orders that his brother's calls shouldn't be put through. David and Bertie had been close as boys, and Bertie worshipped his older brother. Through their adulthood, David was still used to being the fair haired child, the older brother, the leader......and while he never wanted to be king, he couldn't handle the fact that he wasn't king, that his brother now had all the attention, the "power" as it were (not really power, but you know what I mean). When it came time to his trip to Germany and appearance with Hitler, the guests/historians/talking heads talked about how David was less of a Nazi sympathizer than an attention hound; he just needed to be the center of attention.
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  #2074  
Old 02-28-2020, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I watched the CNN Windsor show last night, the one that focused on George VI (my favorite Royal).......and they talked about how David constantly phoned his brother, offering advice, and generally just becoming so much of a pest that the King had orders that his brother's calls shouldn't be put through. attention.
Yes David wanted to get out of the responsibilities of being King but he thoguht he could still act like one when it suited him. He annoyed and upset his brother by the phone calls to the point where Bertie had to refuse to take them. and yes he didn't IMO have any real interest in fascism.. just wanted to take Wallis to germany and show off.. but he did continue to think that Hitler wasn't such a bad chap and that Britian should be fighting against Communism rather than Nazism
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  #2075  
Old 02-28-2020, 09:03 PM
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According to either Tommy Lascelles or one of his other aides, back when David was PoW they'd frequently say "Sir, you're never going to get away with that..." and David's response (not at all concerned) was "But don't you see? I can..."

David and probity. Very much two trains on a collision course.
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  #2076  
Old 02-28-2020, 09:14 PM
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Yes David wanted to get out of the responsibilities of being King but he thoguht he could still act like one when it suited him. He annoyed and upset his brother by the phone calls to the point where Bertie had to refuse to take them. and yes he didn't IMO have any real interest in fascism.. just wanted to take Wallis to germany and show off.. but he did continue to think that Hitler wasn't such a bad chap and that Britian should be fighting against Communism rather than Nazism
He wanted all the perks of being King, but none of the responsibility; he was style over substance, the complete opposite of his brother.
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  #2077  
Old 02-28-2020, 10:36 PM
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David was the classic narcissist. He was the center of his world and everyone around him served their purpose. One only has to get a glimpse of some of his letters to Freda Dudley Ward to get the impression that when David held something dear to him (as Freda was at the time), he held on very tightly and spun his world around them.

When you apply this to the position of being PoW and then, King, Its easy to see the same pattern of behavior here. All the perks and the kudos and the glory were due to him yet the duty and responsibility of the position deterred David from more pleasurable pursuits.

I think we can safely say that to David, a world without sycophants was not a world David wanted to be part of.
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  #2078  
Old 02-28-2020, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
David was the classic narcissist. He was the center of his world and everyone around him served their purpose. One only has to get a glimpse of some of his letters to Freda Dudley Ward to get the impression that when David held something dear to him (as Freda was at the time), he held on very tightly and spun his world around them.

When you apply this to the position of being PoW and then, King, Its easy to see the same pattern of behavior here. All the perks and the kudos and the glory were due to him yet the duty and responsibility of the position deterred David from more pleasurable pursuits.

I think we can safely say that to David, a world without sycophants was not a world David wanted to be part of.
It's impossible to quote David to Freda properly since it involves a four-letter word that starts with "F". Repeatedly.

I don't like him much, and "we always have such a good time, don't we, angel? And the rest of the world" is not a great sign for someone who's getting a nation down the road, but his F-bombs amuse me.

It was post-WWI, so I suppose the entire world was messed up and angry, but he certainly was...
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  #2079  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
David was the classic narcissist. He was the center of his world and everyone around him served their purpose. One only has to get a glimpse of some of his letters to Freda Dudley Ward to get the impression that when David held something dear to him (as Freda was at the time), he held on very tightly and spun his world around them.

When you apply this to the position of being PoW and then, King, Its easy to see the same pattern of behavior here. All the perks and the kudos and the glory were due to him yet the duty and responsibility of the position deterred David from more pleasurable pursuits.

I think we can safely say that to David, a world without sycophants was not a world David wanted to be part of.
David was the golden child, the sun to which everyone in his orbit revolved. His father said that, after his death, he'd ruin himself........and he did. Even with all of his wealth, he ended up pathetic and sad.....and lonely. I'll be honest, whatever I think of him (and a part of me resents him for how he treated Bertie..... I understand why Queen Mother detested him), I'm glad that the Queen and Prince Charles visited him when he was dying. I don't know much about his last years, but I wonder if he regretted anything. He'd lost his family, his home....I doubt he and the Duchess had any true friends (I'm guessing just hangers on, but I could be wrong)....
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  #2080  
Old 02-29-2020, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
David was the golden child, the sun to which everyone in his orbit revolved. His father said that, after his death, he'd ruin himself........and he did. Even with all of his wealth, he ended up pathetic and sad.....and lonely. I'll be honest, whatever I think of him (and a part of me resents him for how he treated Bertie..... I understand why Queen Mother detested him), I'm glad that the Queen and Prince Charles visited him when he was dying. I don't know much about his last years, but I wonder if he regretted anything. He'd lost his family, his home....I doubt he and the Duchess had any true friends (I'm guessing just hangers on, but I could be wrong)....
In reply to your last sentence: Queen Sofía of Spain once remarked: "Royals have no friends". Her only friend is her own sister Princess Irene, who is still living with her in Madrid. Of course Doña Sofía's worldview is largely upset by the exile of the Greek monarchy and the return of the Spanish monarchy, seeing once trusted "friends" swapping loyalties. That was a lifelong lesson for her. It will not have been different for the Duke of Windsor. I also think that the only real friend, no holds barred and 100% confidential, to the Queen was her late sister Princess Margaret. Again a sibling and no "friend" in the traditional meaning.
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