Royal Courtiers, Ladies in Waiting, Staff, etc

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by acdc1

Weren't they mostly from aristocracy or nobility?

They still are. The artistocratic requirement has never been there. It just need to be ladies 'of excellent standing'. In eras gone this indeed was synomymous with 'being of noble birth. But at the Netherlands Court the ladies of 'excellent standing' are nobility, patriciate (compare it with Mayflower upper class in the USA), 'old money' (from mighty industrial or financial dynasties) but also -for an exemple- the spouse of a CEO or or a top-scientist can be asked.

At the moment Queen Beatrix has 1 Grootmeesteres and 6 Hofdames in her slipstream:

M.L.A. (‘Martine’) van Loon-Labouchere formerly Delprat, Grootmeesteres (patrician, widowed to an aristocrat)

Picture of the Grootmeesteres (sitting next to the Premier Minister, representing the Queen, during a Salvation Army Funeral) Doubleclick to blow up the picture and see the isnignia all Ladies-in-Waiting are wearing.

Jonkvrouwe R.D. (‘Reina’) de Blocq van Scheltinga formerly Teixeira de Mattos, Hofdame (aristocrat)

M.J. (‘Mienthe’) Boellaard-Stheemann, Hofdame (patrician)

O.A. (‘Lieke’) Gaarlandt-Van Voorst van Beesd, Hofdame (patrician)

J. (‘Julie’) Jeekel-Thate, Hofdame (commoner)

M.P. (‘Ietje’) Karnebeek-Van Lede, Hofdame (patrician, married to an aristocrat)

E.J.M. (‘Elizabeth’) Baroness van Wassenaer-Mersmans, Hofdame (married to an aristocrat)

When these ladies leave the active service, they are appointed into the Queen’s honorary household and become a Dame du Palais Honoraire or a Hofdame Honoraire. The difference between a Dame du Palais and a Hofdame mainly was that the first were married ladies and the second were unmarried ladies. Later the Dame du Palais evolved more and more into a function positioned between the Grootmeesteres and the Hofdames. The best British equivalent possibly is: Lady of the Bedchamber. In the 1980’s Queen Beatrix reorganized the royal household organization and she made an end to the function of Dame du Palais. The Queen still uses it for the honorary household, for the retired Hofdames, so to say. At the moment there are seven ladies in the honorary household:

C. (‘Kathy’) Bischoff van Heemskerck-Telders formerly Baroness Schimmelpenninck van der Oye, Dame du Palais Honoraire (married to a patrician and widowed to an aristocrat)

M.A.R. (‘Mieke’) de Kanter born Jonkvrouwe Von Mühlen, Dame du Palais Honoraire (aristocrat, married to a patrician)

C.L. (‘Clara’) van Zinnicq Bergmann, Baroness De Vos van Steenwijk, Dame du Palais Honoraire (aristocrat, married to a patrician)

A.V. (‘Ada’) de Beaufort-Van Sminia, Hofdame Honoraire (patrician, married to an aristocrat)

H.G. (‘Henriëtte’) Goudzwaard-Blom, Hofdame Honoraire (commoner)

A. (‘Aggie’) Labouchere, Hofdame Honoraire (patrician)

M.C.C. (‘Marie’) Nahuys-Wijnen, Hofdame Honoraire (married to a patrician)

[magnik]

What about the other courts?
- from the past (Vienna's court) and present?
Who where /are they?

[FarahJoy]

Originally Posted by susan alicia

Lady-in-waiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you, Susan Alicia. Ouch ! I was stunned to read that Japanese Emperors could have a male heir with the official Ladies-in-waiting ! I wonder how HIM the Empress could feel about that...

[FarahJoy]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

In short you can say that a lady-in-waiting (this is the English term, in my country it is called Hofdame ("Dame of the Court") or Dame du Palais ("Dame of the Palace"). They are definitely no maids or servants. In the Netherlands, but also in the United Kingdom, they use to be ladies of certain descent, with an excellent standing in society. Often it are noble or patrician (upper class) ladies who are "approved company to Her Majesty", so to say.

In the Netherlands the Hofdames and Dames du Palais are not paid. Their expenses for their functioning and representation are met by The Queen. So you need to be financially independent. It is seen as an utmost honour to be asked (you don't apply, you are 'asked') for this position. After all, after the family, you are the closest as possible to the Sovereign.

It is a very high position at the Court. In the Netherlands (and I assume in the United Kingdom it is comparable) the ladies do not belong to the regular staff (= cooks, footmen, maids) but are part of the 'Household Honorair", and are led by the Grootmeesteres (Grandmastress, in the United Kingdom: Mistress of the Robes) who only has one boss: The Queen.



In the Netherlands there are 6 Hofdames and 5 Dames du Palais. The difference has somewhat gone: Hofdames used to be unmarried ladies, while Dames du Palais were married ladies. Now there is in fact no real difference: Dames du Palais now are senior Hofdames with a long record. They have a weekly shift, so that means once in the 5 à 6 weeks they are on duty. Their high position is illustrated by the fact that they have their own appartments inside the palace, do receive their own guests in their salons and travel together with The Queen, usually next to her (since Queen Beatrix is a widow, she has no accompany from her spouse).

The Grootmeesteres used to give her own New Year's reception for the Corps Diplomatique. But this has been abolished. The Grootmeesteres, the Hofdames and the Dames du Palais however do organize diners and receptions and act as the eyes and ears of The Queen. They also represent The Queen at weddings and funerals of important figures and keep in touch with the aristocracy.

I hope this gave enough insight.

Thank you very much, Henri M. Waw ! Your answer is very complete and you seem to have a detailed knowledge of monarchies and their daliy life ! Very interesting !

I wonder if Queens sometimes become friends with their Lady-in-waiting because after all, their share so many happy or sad daily events together. I suppose they sometimes talk about it...

[Marengo]

I think that in most cases the Queen is already friends or at least well-acquinted with the future lady in waiting. It wouldn´t be surprising if Maxima´s friend Samantha Deane (now Baroness Rengers) will become her lady in waiting in the future for example.

Though all these titles and prewtty last names are nice I think it wouldn´t hurt the RF to get a few people who are a more ´humble´ background, this all seems rather elitist.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by Marengo

I think that in most cases the Queen is already friends or at least well-acquinted with the future lady in waiting. It wouldn´t be surprising if Maxima´s friend Samantha Deane (now Baroness Rengers) will become her lady in waiting in the future for example.

Though all these titles and prewtty last names are nice I think it wouldn´t hurt the RF to get a few people who are a more ´humble´ background, this all seems rather elitist.

Well, monarchy needs some distance. Not only in the choice of partners, which should remain different from us, ordinary people. Also the fact that the ladies and gentlemen surrounding the Queen belong to an elitist group add to the distance a monarchy really needs.

By the way, there are two commoners as Hofdame: Julie Jeekel-Thate and Henriëtte Goudzwaard-Blom. None of them belong to the aristocracy or the patriciate. But also these two ladies have a certain standing:

Mrs. Henriëtte Goudzwaard-Blom, Hofdame Honoraire is the spouse of dr. J.M. Goudzwaard, deputy CEO of Unilever, the Dutch-British food and retail giant multinational.

Mrs. Julie Jeekel-Thate M.l. , Hofdame is the spouse of dr. J. Jeekel, professor in General Surgery at the Erasmus University Medical Faculty, Rotterdam.

So the two commoner hofdames are also of excellent standing indeed.


The other Hofdames and Dames du Palais are noble or patrician by birth or marriage.

[CasiraghiTrio]

It's natural for royal women to have ladies-in-waiting from their intimate circle of friends. Who else would or could do that job, unpaid, besides the friends of royalty who don't need to work for money and don't have much limits on time?
It's hard to find a person of "humble means" with the time or financial security for this job!

I am loving the "Hofdame" word. It reminds me of the "Hofmeister" word in German, which means a private tutor.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

It's natural for royal women to have ladies-in-waiting from their intimate circle of friends. Who else would or could do that job, unpaid, besides the friends of royalty who don't need to work for money and don't have much limits on time?
It's hard to find a person of "humble means" with the time or financial security for this job!

I am loving the "Hofdame" word. It reminds me of the "Hofmeister" word in German, which means a private tutor.

Well, I think that Queen Beatrix is close to her Hofdames and Dames du Palais, but she is too much a Queen and a bit alike Queen Sofía of Spain: "Queens have no friends". In my option it was Diana's main fault that she did reveal everything to her 'friends', under these crystal ball watchers, tarot cardreaders, couturiers and popstars. A Princess of Wales has no friends.....

From my understanding none of the Hofdames and Dames du Palais, also not those with along record, are on first name terms with the Queen or the Princesses. With a possible and exceptional exception to Martine van Loon - Labouchère formerly Delprat, the Grootmeesteres (Grandmastress / Lady of the Bedchamber). She seems to count as a confidante to The Queen. Note: a confidante is not the same as 'friend'! But the Queen keeps a distance. It is always "U" and "Majesteit" or "Mevrouw". Never the more informal "Jij" and for sure not "Beatrix".

There is an anecdote about this. The late Prince Bernhard once became infuriated in the famous interview in De Volkskrant, shortly before his death, when he was asked about rumours and gossips regarding his devoted mother Princess Armgard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Baroness von Sierstorpff-Cramm.

For decades she had Colonel Alexey Pantchulichev as her equerry. The Colonel was her rock and her shield. The Prince: "In all those years never, never, the Colonel has ever said "Du" to my mother. It was always "Sie" here and "Sie" there. He has never dared to kiss my mother. Not even on her cheek!"

Still the Colonel was a confidant to the old Princess. He knew all about her private and public businesses and her administration. In our eyes we would think: they are friends. But no: distance. Always distance.

It is not for nothing the Prince and Princess of Orange do live in a smaller scale villa rather than in a palace: they want to escape the spying eyes, the courtiers, the grey men in the grey suits, as much as possible.

[Furienna]

This is interesting, But I have a question. What's the difference between the aristocratic, noble and patrician?

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by Furienna

This is interesting, But I have a question. What's the difference between the aristocratic, noble and patrician?

There is no difference in nobility and aristocracy. It are terms both used to define those who are of blue blood. In the Netherlands the Nobility is often referred as 'The Red Book', which refers to Nederland's Adelsboek (78 books and 45.155 pages with the genealogical data of all noble families who are part of the Netherlands Nobility).

With the Patriciate is meant all those (non-noble) families which are enlisted in the Nederland's Patriciaat, nicknamed 'The Blue Book'. These are families which "for more than 150 years, or six successive generations, have played a prominent role in the Netherlands society". For an example families which for generations have delivered officers, judges, notaries, ministers, parliamentarians, professors. Also non-noble collateral branches from noble families are enlisted in the Patriciate.

The former spouse of HRH Princess Margarita de Bourbon de Parme (Edwin de Roy van Zuydewijn) was patrician. He is of a collateral branch of the noble family also named De Roy van Zuydewijn (rank Baron). Wealth or fortune is no criterium for being enlisted in the Patriciate.

Every society has patrician families. Even in the United States of America. You can count the Bush or the Kennedy families, with so many congressmen, governors, senators and presidents as 'Patrician'. The word patrician is generally used to denote a member of the upper class, often with connotations of inherited wealth, elitism, and a sense of noblesse oblige. The term derives from ancient Rome where the elitist families were called 'Patricii' opposed to the 'Plebeii', the lower classes.

Also the Zorreguieta and Cerruti families (parental families of Princess Máxima) can be labelled 'Patrician'. For generations both sides have delivered prosperous merchants, large landowners, bankers, surgeons, mayors, governors and ministers. It is an indication for the standing of a family. In the Netherlands such a family could be enlisted as 'Patrician'.



The Queen requits her Dames du Palais and Hofdames almost exclusively in the Nobility and/or the Patriciate.

[Furienna]

Okay, thank you! (I knew the ancient Roman nobility was called patricians.)

[Paty]

Originally Posted by rchainho

none of the spanish royals have lady in waiting.

It´s not exactly a lady in waiting

• The Aides-de-Champ to His Majesty The King

The Aides-de-Champ, organised in successive 24-hour duty periods, assist His Majesty, in a permanent fashion and when carrying out his official duties, as well as H.M. The Queen and Their Royal Highnesses The Infantas Doña Elena and Doña Cristina. They also form part of the Retinue of Honour of foreign Heads of State on official visit to Spain.

Four belong to the Army, two to the Navy, two to the Air Force and one to the Civil Guard.

• The Aides-de-Champ to Their Royal Highness The Princes of Asturias

The Aides-de-Champ assist His Royal Highness, in a permanent fashion and when carrying out his official activities, as well as Her Royal Highness The Princess of Asturias.

One belongs to the Army, another one to the Navy and the last one to the Air Force.

[RoyalProtocol]

Queen Elizabeth II's ladies-in-waiting are companions to The Queen for visits and engagements with and without Prince Philip, they reply to Her Majesty's letters, do some personal shopping, carry flowers and programmes etc. and help in whatever way they can. They are not servants is the conventional sense though they do serve The Queen, they are not paid though there are reimbursed for some of their expenses (clothing being one example).

They are chosen from among friends of The Royal Family and senior courtiers and are all of excellent backgrounds. Lady Susan Hussey is one of the best known of HM's ladies-in-waiting.

[Furienna]

Are there still ladies-in-waiting here in Sweden?

[norwegianne]

This thread have been split from the thread about the Norwegian ladies lady-in-waiting, as it is a broader topic.

For future reference: Mette-Marit does not have a lady-in-waiting. The only Norwegian royal with a lady-in-waiting is Princess Astrid Mrs. Ferner.

[ashelen]

thank you for all the explanations for lady in waiting , sorry that i ask but it is not very clear for me, Maxima has a permanent lady in waiting or only some times??????
Is the lady in waiting who teached her the protcol and etiquete??
I presume before to married she had a lot of tutors not only to learn the language but to learn to be a princess, how to walk , how to seat, how to eat, all the formalities , where did she learn all that????

[sgl]

Perhaps this has already been addressed somewhere on this forum. I tried to find a thread for this topic, but could not. My apologies if a thread already exists.

I was wondering which royals had constant companions, such as a manservant or a lady-in-waiting. How does this work, and what is life like for these people? What is expected of them, and how are they appointed to their jobs? Is this still done, or have modern royals done away with this concept?

[Prince of Chota]

Ladies traditionally learn what is de rigeuer from other female members of the family, but also attend finishing schools to learn the rest. There are specialists in such things, but learning from an experienced individual is always the easiest way. Families have traditionally taken great pride in raising well-mannered children for whom these rules come almost instinctually. Most rules of etiquette are simply an extension of common courtesy. Other things must simply be memorised.

Ladies-in-waiting are generally not present unless the woman belongs to a rank of royalty. They generally come from a rank in society that is already aware of such rules (and frankly, Maxima was no peasant herself). It is not their formal job to teach royal ladies, but I am sure that they do. It is their duty to see that protocol is never overlooked, and that is much the same thing as teaching it.

[Prince of Chota]

In the United Kingdom, the position is a bit different, and is now called "Maid of Honour". The Queen has several of these with different titles (Mistress of the Robes, etc. All can collectively be referred to as "Ladies-in-Waiting," but this is not the official title.

[pretoriana18]

Some Fhotos about the Crown Princess Mary´s secretary... but that I want is a thred of all the princess secretaries... If a moderator can help me and post it in the correct place... thanks
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Ws/icom7-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Ws/wmhday4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...s/daycare1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../DRWs/lib2.jpg