Non-British Styles and Titles

[Duchess Ravenna]

A capitalization question from a friend of the family who's writing a novel: which is correct, "I had dinner with the Queen of England" or "I had dinner with the queen of England"? Or just "The queen came to my house" or "The Queen came to my house."

Same for other titles: "He's the son of the Duke of Wartshire" or "He's the son of the duke of Wartshire."

Any help would be most appreciated, as I can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere else. And maybe there isn't one.

[sgl]

I don't know for sure, Duchess Ravenna, but my guess is that when you say, "I had dinner with the Queen of England", the title is capitalized. If you are just saying something in the past tense without specifying the country, then my guess is that it would be, "The queen came to my house", because it is not said with the name of the land. I am not 100% sure, though. Perhaps a wiser person would know the definite answer. I would also imagine that it depended upon which queen you were writing about, and which language you are using. Each language has its own rules regarding titles and names.

[wbenson]

I believe that when one uses a definite article (as in "The Queen"), one capitalizes the title. Example: "The Queen and the Duke of Wartshire came over for breakfast, and then another duke and some viscounts came over for tea."

As with nearly everything in English, though, you will find different style guides recommending different things.

[Iain]

You find that the British press tend to use capitals when refering to British royalty but often doesn't use them when speaking about foriegn royals. One of the top papers when reporting the visit of the King and Queen of Norway to Britain always used capitals when speaking about Queen Elizabeth, the Duke of Edinburgh or Prince Charles but always refered to the visiting royals as king Hararld and queen Sonja. A friend knows a reporter on the paper and when she asked him why they did this the reply she got was "all British papers do that." When she asked why he said "because everyone knows that only the British royal family are real royalty, the rest are not." When my friend said that this was rubbish the reporter said "no it's not, it's always been that way, foriegn kings and queens are not real royalty." At that, my friend gave up trying to reason with him. Sadly, I've met a few British royalists who hold the same belief.

[RoyalProtocol]

Debretts advises always use capitals liberally and if in doubu capatilize even in the middle of a sentence e.g. "The Queen" "HRH The Prince of Wales" "The Prince Philip" "Her Majesty The Queen of The Netherlands" "we met The Prince of Orange" "I spoke to Princess Letizia"

Foreign royals are treated exactly like British ones.

[Duchess Ravenna]

Wow, great advice, and all over the lot, as I expected. I guess I'll just tell the friend to go with her instinct (she likes to capitalize the Queen and the Duke when referring specifically, lower-case when not). But thanks to all of you!

[Next Star]

Say a princess who is head of house marries a prince who is also head of a house what title will she be known by the one before her marriage or will she be known by her husband's title?

[Menarue]

A question about Italian titles or styles. A great-grand-aunt of mine married an Italian Count (he must have been thought so important that no one can remember his name in the family) well his brother was also styled count, and I have seen this a few times the sons of a Marquess or Count all being called by the same title as their father, but sometimes with an "ino" on the end, is this just a respectful and non-meaningful way of addressing these noble offspring?

[magnik]

I hope that it help somehow Menarue
Nobility of Italy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia specially links below.

[Menarue]

Thanks Magnik, at least it seems to explain why all the titled Italians I have met are Counts.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Next Star

Say a princess who is head of house marries a prince who is also head of a house what title will she be known by the one before her marriage or will she be known by her husband's title?

Such a marriage would unite the two houses in one person in the next generation and a suitable name combination would be made. The title would depend on the seniority or equality of the Houses. One example is the Empress Maria Theresia who married the Duke of Lorraine. She remained Empress of Austria and her descendants took the House name of Habsburg-Lorraine. If Queen Margrethe of Denmark had married a German Fürst she would still be Queen of Denmark and the German title would be relegated to also-ran status.

The question doesn't otherwise apply to the Germanic Houses as Salic Law prevents a female becoming head of a House.
In the present day it is highly unlikely that a Crown Princess of one country would marry the Crown Prince of another.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Menarue

A question about Italian titles or styles. A great-grand-aunt of mine married an Italian Count (he must have been thought so important that no one can remember his name in the family) well his brother was also styled count, and I have seen this a few times the sons of a Marquess or Count all being called by the same title as their father, but sometimes with an "ino" on the end, is this just a respectful and non-meaningful way of addressing these noble offspring?

Hi Menarue, usually in Italy, as in other Countries, the head of the family bears the title...the other members are styled "Nobile dei Conti/Marchesi/etc".
As you know Italians are very generous...so happens that commoners call all members of a noble family with the title of the head, this is why we have so many Conti or Marchesi!!!
I know the Maltese nobility officially uses the word "Contino" or "Marchesino" for the members of the families, because in Malta it does not exist the style "Nobile dei Conti" etc.

[Menarue]

Well that explains that, the generosity of the wonderful Italian people...
Thanks Count.

[Kotroman]

Originally Posted by Warren

One example is the Empress Maria Theresia who married the Duke of Lorraine. She remained Empress of Austria and her descendants took the House name of Habsburg-Lorraine.

Maria Theresa was never - never - Empress of Austria because Austria was an archduchy within the Holy Roman Empire during her reign, therefore Maria Theresa was the sovereign Archduchess of Austria (as well as Queen of Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, and Bohemia). She became Empress of the Holy Roman Empire when her husband was elected emperor. She was an empress consort and queen regnant, but she is generally known by the imperial title she gained by marriage, because her marital title took precedence over her royal titles.

[Kotroman]

Originally Posted by Prince of Chota

"Dowager" was never a formal part of Queen Elizabeth's title, which is why the need for "Queen Mother" was so strong. It is alright to refer to her as "the dowager Queen of England," but not to say "the Dowager Queen Elizabeth" in formal circumstances.

It has not been alright to refer to anyone as Queen of England since 1707. Using "dowager" as part of a title was a tradition among the peers until the word "dowager" got a negative meaning (old woman) and Queen Elizabeth was a dowager queen styled Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Mary of Teck was also a dowager queen and a queen mother though she preferred not to use any of these titles, as she too believed "it's for old women". Yet she was referred to as Mary the Queen Mother in the official prayers (http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Variations.htm).

If The Crown Prince of Someland died, his son would become the new Crown Prince of Someland and he would styled HRH The Crown Prince of Someand. The new Crown Prince's would be styled HRH The Crown Princess of Someland, while the widow would be HRH Crown Princess HerName of Someland. Therefore it's appropriate to always refer to Mary Elizabeth Donaldson as HRH The Crown Princess of Denmark (not HRH Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, because the definite article the promotes the title holder and points out his or her precedence).

[gabys]

I didn't know where to ask this or if this has been asked before but when two nobles or royals get married,the woman has a higher title than her husband can she have the option of keeping her title and surname or does she have to acquire her husbands?

[Next Star]

It depends on the situation if she is a member of a reigning family maybe she has the ability to keep her previous title.But I think if she is a member of a non reigning family she has to acquire her husbands. I tried to answer you question to the best of my ability.

[LaPlusBelle]

Originally Posted by gabys

I didn't know where to ask this or if this has been asked before but when two nobles or royals get married,the woman has a higher title than her husband can she have the option of keeping her title and surname or does she have to acquire her husbands?

Archduchess Marie Christine of Austria married Count Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum. Both of their titles are from non-reigning families, so she took her husband's title, and is now Countess Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum.

[Princess Robijn]

She didn't give her other titles up (Officially, they don't excist, but that would be besides the point.)

1. She is styled Countess Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum and
2. She is Countess Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum, however, if you don't look at the fact that Austria doesn't recognize titles she is

HI&RH Marie-Christine, Countess Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum, Archduchess and Princess Imperial of Austria, Princess Royal of Hungary and Bohemia.

She can choose if she uses her husbands title or not.

Josette

[Kotroman]

It's strange that she ceased to use imperial, royal and archducal titles in favour of a lowly comital title