Bowing and Curtseying

[wyevale]

At the {High Anglican church} i attended as a child everybody genuflected before the high Altar, as they took, or vacated their pew. i believe it remains common practice today,

[mslewis]

Originally Posted by sarahedwards2

In the olden days (1800's), girls and young women curtsied to any adult they were introduced to or encountered; even non-royals. I wonder why this was discontinued? I see it as a mark of respect to any superior, royalty or not (especially your music or ballet/dance teacher!)

No one should have to bow and scrape to anyone!! That is old fashion and rather silly. Yes, some upper class people had their children curtsy to adults in the 60's but that all died out with the debutante party. It's ridiculous and NOT a sign of respect, it is a sign of subservience and no one is less than anyone else. That is why no American diplomat bows to European royalty. Nancy Reagan did it once and was vilified for it. We are all equal in this world.

[sarahedwards2]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

Here in the US very few women wear lace veils unless it's to a Tridentine Mass, but most people still genuflect before sitting if the Sacrament is on the altar. It would personally never occur to me to sit down without genuflecting, I was taught that it's a sign of respect , faith and reverence.

People who do not genuflect will usually at least bow their heads and make the sign of the Cross here in the U.S before taking their seats.

At my cousin's wedding 11 years ago (my dad's family's United), he married a French Canadian girl; the service was a high mass, complete with bell ringing, and was all in Latin (which I didn't understand a word of until my brother took it in high school years later (like our parents did)), and all the girls and women had to wear lace veils. Her 5-year-old niece was the flower girl, and she even wore a white dress with a veil; she looked like she was taking her first communion, even though she wasn't. On the contrary, his brother's wedding to an Italian girl was a low mass, and was all in English; same as my parents' (no lace veils there).

[CyrilVladisla]

Originally Posted by LadyFinn

Prince Louis of Luxembourg greets queen Sofia at the canonisation of the popes
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/P...r-d5z2pgFx.jpg

What an artful bow by Prince Louis!
He held the Queen's hand ever so gracefully and respectfully.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by LadyFinn

Prince Louis of Luxembourg greets queen Sofia at the canonisation of the popes
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/P...r-d5z2pgFx.jpg

Prince Loius is such a gentleman.

[MARG]

Originally Posted by mslewis

No one should have to bow and scrape to anyone!! That is old fashion and rather silly. Yes, some upper class people had their children curtsy to adults in the 60's but that all died out with the debutante party. It's ridiculous and NOT a sign of respect, it is a sign of subservience and no one is less than anyone else. That is why no American diplomat bows to European royalty. Nancy Reagan did it once and was vilified for it. We are all equal in this world.

Hmm, funny how no one has raised the issue of bowing to their instructor at a Dojo and yet it is exactly the same thing, a traditional sign of respect. No one mentions it or denigrates it as they do when it concerns royalty and yet when they see it on film or TV or when they and/or their children do it they accept it as "normal". No bowing or scraping implied and no statements about subservience
.

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

What an artful bow by Prince Louis!

I wouldn't mind betting that he kissed her hand as well.

http://www.tageblatt.lu/diashow/3463...0c185c23c5.jpg . . . as does King Juan Carlos being a gentleman to Queen Paola

[Darnius]

Is there any photos of HGD Stephanie curtseyed? I never saw it.

[sarahedwards2]

Originally Posted by MARG

Hmm, funny how no one has raised the issue of bowing to their instructor at a Dojo and yet it is exactly the same thing, a traditional sign of respect. No one mentions it or denigrates it as they do when it concerns royalty and yet when they see it on film or TV or when they and/or their children do it they accept it as "normal". No bowing or scraping implied and no statements about subservience.

And your music/ballet teacher no doubt! I curtsied to my piano teacher out of respect after my performance one time last semester and she just chuckled! Needless to say I was tickled pink by her reaction! She's probably done it herself after performances; she's a singer-songwriter and gives concerts. She's just a young woman, and really fun to be around! Since I have such an extensive musical background, she often calls on me to demonstrate things while we're at the piano during the group portion of our class; the other members are either new at it or have only been playing for a little while. But I don't mind! I always look forward to my Thursday evening lessons.

[Tiggersk8]

Not to mention all the Figure Skaters out there who bow and curtsey at the end of their performances. Both as a form of thanking the Audience and a sign of respect as well.

[Moonmaiden23]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Wonderful photo,I'm wondering also if this was HGD Stephanies first meeting with the Spanish King & Queen?

I think it must be. The Prince and Princess of Asturias attended her wedding, King J-C and Queen Sofia did not. She might have met Queen Sofia at the 2012 Summer Games in London, but I am not 100% certain Sofia attended the Games and J-C definitely didn't.

Great point about curtseying/bowing Tiggersk8 and MARG...I completely agree. There can never be too much courtesy or good manners in the world. "Equality" has nothing to do with it,imo.

[Frelinghighness]

Bowing and curtesying is not a sign of subservience but respect. Perfect gentlemen, Louis of Luxembourg and King of Spain. The gentleman does not actually touch with his lips and kiss the ladies' hand.

PS I wonder what language the GD speaks to the Kings of Spain, spanish I guess, I wonder if Stephanie can speak spanish?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by carlota

thanks for the pic, how charming... it's always nice seeing a person from a young generation curtsying to someone older, but i don't believe we see it very often... so it's refreshing that louis did a proper bow to sofia...

The handkiss is still very regularly used in Spain. There is a difference however, Spanish gentlemen often bring the hand to their mouth (not touching it with the lips) sometimes this looks a bit rude (due to inconveniency or no practice), little Queen Sofía having her arm forced up high.

There is also a difference in regions (in Andalucía or Madrid there is more oldfashioned decorum than in Catalunya for an example) but also in political backgrounds. Politicians from the PP (conservatives), the current majority, will do a bow (men), eventually a handkiss or a curtsey (women). When you see politicians from the PSOE (Labour) they usually do not bow, handkiss or curtsey but keep it with a polite handshake. Prince Louis did it "the French way": he did not bring the lady's hand to his lips: he brought his lips to the lady's hand.

King Willem-Alexander did it "the Spanish way" to Queen Máxima, he moved her hand to his lips: http://db2.stb.s-msn.com/i/CA/4F3385...A61A56F82B.jpg

President Chirac did it (how else?) "the French way" to First Lady Michelle Obama, he moved his lips to her hand: http://wizbangblog.com/images/2005/c...ral_xlb104.jpg

Queen Beatrix receives a handkiss "the French way" when she anonimously visited a market: a gentleman moved his lips to her hand: http://www.refdag.nl/polopoly_fs/han...ge/8985132.jpg

[GrammaSueSue]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

President Chirac did it (how else?) "the French way" to First Lady Michelle Obama, he moved his lips to her hand: http://wizbangblog.com/images/2005/c...ral_xlb104.jpg

The lady in this photo is Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Oops! I stand corrected!!

[Darnius]

The Queen of Spain kissed Pope Francis's hand. (video, 1:11)

Sus Majestades los Reyes saludan al Papa Francisco - YouTube

[sarahedwards2]

Originally Posted by Tiggersk8

Not to mention all the Figure Skaters out there who bow and curtsey at the end of their performances. Both as a form of thanking the Audience and a sign of respect as well.

Curtsying in skates must be really hard to do, not to mention on slippery ice!

[MarcosFenn]

Originally Posted by mslewis

No one should have to bow and scrape to anyone!! That is old fashion and rather silly. Yes, some upper class people had their children curtsy to adults in the 60's but that all died out with the debutante party. It's ridiculous and NOT a sign of respect, it is a sign of subservience and no one is less than anyone else. That is why no American diplomat bows to European royalty. Nancy Reagan did it once and was vilified for it. We are all equal in this world.

You're entitled to your view, of course.

It's a view which is influenced by the fact that the United States is a republic.

Royalty is predicated on the tacit acknowledgement of past deferences and traditional respect. It's actually not about the individual's merits; rather, it's about respect for the embodiment of authority. In monarchical countries, royalty functions similarly to the way the US flag is viewed by Americans.

[padams2359]

I do understand the problem people had with Nancy Reagan curtsying to the Queen at the time. As the wife of a sitting POTUS, she should not have done it. It is a sign of disrespect to those that fought for our independence, and the presidency is the embodiment of this. Before or after he was in office, that is her choice. As an American citizen, would I do it, probable because that is the custom in her country. JMO

[Darnius]

A deep curtsey to Princess Margaretha of Sweden.

The Royal Watcher : Photo

[Moonmaiden23]

Originally Posted by padams2359

I do understand the problem people had with Nancy Reagan curtsying to the Queen at the time. As the wife of a sitting POTUS, she should not have done it. It is a sign of disrespect to those that fought for our independence, and the presidency is the embodiment of this. Before or after he was in office, that is her choice. As an American citizen, would I do it, probable because that is the custom in her country. JMO

I agree 100%. I remember the incident from the 80's and I thought at the time it was an example of Mrs. Reagan trying too hard. In fact the Chief of Protocol advised her not to do it for exactly the reasons you stated, but for whatever reason she insisted.