About Royal Institutions, Titles and Hierarchy in the 7 European Kingdoms

[Tatiana Maria]

All I was stating in my replies to you is that I see no reason to disbelieve the "archaic Danish and German texts from the 1700s" - which state that Louise, Sophie Magdalene, Louise Augusta, and Caroline were all titled Crown Princess at one time - when no evidence has been presented to rebut them.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Can we move on, please?!?
I think I have spend enough of my time on this. And I'm not in the mood of reading archaic Danish and German texts from 1700's right now.

Understandable. I too would be relieved to move on, but please take note that in the same post in which you ask me to move on, you continue to assert that I am mistaken (without presenting evidence for it, I'm afraid), in spite of the fact that I provided a bibliography of "archaic Danish and German texts from the 1700s" in support of my claims.

After your repeated assertions that my statements were mistaken, it was legitimate to respond and provide a source to back up my claims. It would have been deeply unfair to you if I had expected you to believe that I was correct simply because I stated it. I hope other readers will find the source useful.

Thank you for providing a link regarding Louise; however, I do not see any information regarding her premarital title on that page.

Again, I am more than happy to "move on", but if you do continue to state that the evidence I have presented is mistaken, then I would appreciate seeing evidence to rebut it.

[Muhler]

I did check your link. Using kronprinsesse.
Unsurprisingly it turned up more than 100.000 hits, also when using specific names. But not necessarily connected.

Come on, do you expect me to plough through volume after volume for references of princesses being titled crown princess?
That's your job. It's your claim.

I have been doing several searches in Danish, including the names you listed and I can't find any reference to other Danish princesses, than Caroline, being titled crown princess.
I've been checking the Royal Library: https://www.kongernessamling.dk/dron...aandbibliotek/
The National Museum: https://natmus.dk/
Historie-online: Kongerækken
Danmarks Konger: Danmarks Konger
Wikipedia: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongel...stelige_titler
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konger%C3%A6kken
- Try as I might, I can't find any references to princesses being titled crown princesses, except Caroline.
I'm not going to explode if turns out you are right, I just can't find anything to support that. Nor have I ever heard or read about it.

I've have been spending more than two hours on this today, so forgive me for being slightly annoyed by now.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I did check your link. Using kronprinsesse.
Unsurprisingly it turned up more than 100.000 hits, also when using specific names. But not necessarily connected.

Come on, do you expect me to plough through volume after volume for references of princesses being titled crown princess?

Fair enough, and I apologize for failing to realize the information in the book was difficult to find with a simple search. It has been some time since I searched in the book myself.

I will return later with quotations from the book. For the moment, here is a link which I hope will work for you to a book published in Denmark in 1848, mentioning the use of Crown Princess for daughters.

Kongens ældste Son og Datter føre Titlen Kronprinds og Kronprindsesse. At Kong Christian den 7des Halvbroder Frederik førte Titel af Arveprinds, og at denne Titel nylig, nemlig den 26de Januar 1848, er blevet tillagt Hs. køngelige Høihed Prinds Frederik Ferdinand, kan ikke siges at være grundet i nogen almindelig Vedtægt*).

Originally Posted by Muhler

I have been doing several searches in Danish, including the names you listed and I can't find any reference to other Danish princesses, than Caroline, being titled crown princess.
I've been checking the Royal Library: https://www.kongernessamling.dk/dron...aandbibliotek/
The National Museum: https://natmus.dk/
Historie-online: Kongerækken
Danmarks Konger: Danmarks Konger
Wikipedia: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongel...stelige_titler
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konger%C3%A6kken
- Try as I might, I can't find any references to princesses being titled crown princesses, except Caroline.

I am aware that most current websites and publications refer to the deceased crown princesses as simply "Princess", and mentioned the issue in one of my previous comments.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

[...] (Historians of today normally call them Princesses, but the titles are always written in 17th and 18th century publications.) [...]

Originally Posted by Muhler

That's your job. It's your claim.

Of course. I was not requesting that you provide evidence for my claim, but that you provide evidence for your own claim that the sources I provided were incorrect and contradicted by "royal records".

[Muhler]

It's too close to bedtime. I'll check your link tomorrow and return to it at some point.

In the meantime feel free to add more links.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

During the reigns of their fathers, until they lost the title upon their marriage or their eldest brother's marriage, the title of Crown Princess was always used by Louise, the only daughter of Christian VI, Sophie Magdalene, the eldest daughter of Frederik V, Louise Auguste, the only daughter of Frederik VI, and Caroline, the eldest daughter of Frederik VI.

You can view a bibliography of historic publications using the titles during the crown princesses' lifetimes at this link.

https://archive.org/details/bibliothecadanic03bruuuoft

I have only quoted the entries which were published when there was an unmarried eldest daughter of the King and she had no married eldest brother, and as such was eligible to receive the title.


-----------

Louise - from 1730 to 1743 (pg. 372).

Sparkier. [Ped.], Hiertelig Velsignelse over Cron-Princesse Lovise. paa Hds. Kgl. Heyheds Fedsels-Dag den 19. Oct, 1736, i eftorfolgende Cantata. Kbh. Fol. 2 Bl.

—, Paa Cron-Princesse Lovises Fedsels-Dag don 19. Oct. 1739. Kbh. Fol. pat. 1 Bl. [Digt.]

-----------


Sophia Magdalena - from 1746 to 1766 (pp. 444-445).

Kaai.und, Hans Wilii., En allerunderd. Lyk
onskning til Kron-Princesse Sophia Magda
lene paa Sin pan Fredensborg celebrerede
Fedsels-Feat den 3. Julii 1764. Kbh. 2 Bl.

—, Til Hds. Kgl. Heyh. Kron-Prindsesse
Sophia Magdalena paa Sin paa Fredensborg
celebrerede Fedsels-Fest, den 3. Julii 1765.
Kbh. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

— , Matth. 11. Cap. 10. Vers, forrestillet i aller
underd. Lykonskning til Herr Groove Adam
Horn, i Anl. af Deres Excellences Ankörnst
til Kiobenhavn den 16. Sept. 1766. Kbh. 4.
2 Bl. [Digt.]

I Wehner, Matth.], Til H. Excel. Grève Adam
Horn. Den 5. Oct. 1766. Kiepenh. 4. 4 Bl.
[Digt.]

Kaalunp, Hans Wilh., Denne dobbelte For-
madilings Fest, forestillet i en allerunderd.
Lykonskning til den imellem Kron-Prinds
(instavus til Sverrig og Kron-Princesse S<>-
]ihin Magdalene paa Christiansborg Slot fuld-
byrdede Procurations Formadilings Act, den
10. [!] Oct. 17(>(>. som og til cien imellem Kong
Christian den Syvende til Danniark etc. og
Princesse Caroline Mathilde i London cele-
brerede Procurations Formaehling. U.St. 4.
2 Bl. [Digt]

Bik, Jac. Chr.. I Anl. af 1). Kgl. Ileih. Kron-
prints Gustav af Sverrig og Kronprinces.se So
phie Magdalene af Dannemark, Deres heie
Formamling, ere felgende Synge-Stykker i Mu-
siqve udferte ved Jon. Anth. Musjíus. Khh.
4. 4 Bl. [Digt.]

Barchíi's, A. G., Vid den höga Formälning
emellan Svea-Rikes Kron-Prins Gustaf och
Prinsessa Sophia Magdalena d. 1. Oct. 1766 i
Köpenhamn. Köpenh. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]
Werner, Matth., Til Hs. Kongl. Högh. Kron-
Printzessan Sophia Magdalena pá des höga
Formälings Dag, den 1. Oct. 1766. Kiöpenh.
4. 4 Bl. [Digt.]

[Neuohs, Johs.], Carmina occasione connubii
Sophia; Magdalena» cum Principe Gustavo,
in scola Fridericiensi publice rccitata . una
cum floribus Friderico <^vinti> in itim-re Hol-
satico sparsis, hoc programniate offeruntur.
Ao. 1776. U. St. 4. P. SPr.

Ceremonial, вот kommer at i akt tayas aid lis.
Kyl. Höyh. Cron-Printsens tilkommende Gemtils.
Printseszans Sophia Magdalena* af Dannemark
nà emottayande a Sirensk bottn, кот Renan hit,
Intáyet iiti Residencet, och then hiir til skeende
Bilâgers-Fêten. Stockh. 1766. 4. P.

Wollenst râle . M. G.. Göteborgs Fägnad rid
Kron-Prins Gustafs och Kron-Princessan Sophia
Magdalenas höga Formäling i Stockholm den i.
Nor. 1766, tolkad i en kort Tal samme Dag i
Kongl. Gymnasia. Götheb. 4. P. [Digt.]

-----------

Louise Augusta - from 1771 to 1786 (pp. 553-554).

Olsen, G. H., Sang paa Kronprindsessens Lo-
visa Augustas Fedselsdag, den 7. Julii 1784.
КЫ.. 2 Bl.

Olsen, P. В., Sang paa Kronprindsessens Lo-
visa Augustas Fedselsdag den 7. Julii 1784.
Kbh. 2 Bl.

Tanker i Anl. af lids. Kgl. Heih. Kron-Prin-
zessens Loviaae Augusta1 hoie Fedsols-Dag den
7. Julii 1785. Kbh. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

Bastholm, Chr., Confirmations-Acton, da Hds.
Kgl. Heih. Kronprintsesse Louise Augusta
blev den 25. Sept. 1785 i Christiansborg Slots-
kirke bekr^ftet i sin Daabs-Pagt. Kbh. 4. P.

Andreses', Cl., ITds. Kgl. Hoih. Cronprindsesse
Louisa Augusta paa hendes heio Formadilings-
dag hell iget. Kbh. 1786. Fol. 2B1. [Digt.]

Hersom, Lars W., De lucbnendendo 8itele-Evner
paa Forma'hlingsdagen den 27. May 1780, da
Friderik Christian til Augustenborg forbandt
sig ved on JSgteforening med Printsesse Lovisa
Augusta. Kbh. 4 Bl. [Digt.] (U. ВЛ

Pram, [Christen He.vriksen], Cantate ved det
Kgl. Kiebenhavnske Universitets Heitidelig-

hed, i Anl. af Kronprindsessens Louises Ali
sta) Forimeling med Prinds Frederik Christian
af Slesvig-Augustenborg opfert den 1. Junii
1786. Musiken af Kunzen. Kbh. 4 Bl.

[Soldin, Jac], Sang i Anl. af Kronprindsesse
Lovise Augustas Fornneling med Friderich
Christian til Holstein- Augustenborg den 27.
Maji 178(i. Allerunderd. foranstaltet af den
hoitydske jodiske Nations Forstandere og af-
siunget i deres Synagog paa den heie For-
maelings-Dag. Paa Hebraisk forfattet og til
lige fordansket. [Kbh. 1786.] 4. P.

[Thaarup, Thon.], Samtale ved Formadings-
Acten imellem Kronprindsesse Lovisa Augusta
og Arveprinds Friderich Christian til Slesvig-
Ilolsteen-Sonderborg, den 27. May 1786. Kbh.
4 Bl.

En Sang i Anl. af lis. Durc.hl. Printzens af
Augustenborg Formading med vores allernaad.
Kronprintzesse. Kbh. [1786.] 4 Bl.

Hymne til Hds. Kgl. Hoih. Prindsesse Lovisa
Augusta og Hs. Durchl. Prinds Friderich
Christian af Augustenborg den 27. Mai 1786.
Med tilhorende Musik. Kbh. 4. P.

Nordens Fryde-Sang i Anl. af Prindsesse Lovisa
Augusta Forniwling den 27. Maji 1786 med
Prinds Friderich Christian til Holstein-Augu
stenborg, som paa Christiansborg Slot solen-
niter blev celebreret. Kbh. 4 Bl.

Tvilling-Kigcts Ghedes-Sang ved Kron-Prinoesse
Lovise Augustes Forinading med Prinds Friede
rich Christian til Holsleen-Augustenborg den
27. Mai 1786. [Kbh.] 4 Bl.

[.Jonstone, James], The robbing of the nunnery;
or the abbess out-witted. A Danish ballad
[э: Kloster-Kanet], translated into English in
the style of the 16. century. U. St. 1786. P.
[Dansk og Engelsk.] [Indledet med et Digt
paa Latin dat.: May xxvii MDCCLxxxvi.]

Christi ANi, Wilh. Ernst , Rede auf das Ver-
mählungs-Fost der Kronprinzeszin Louise Au
guste und des Erbprinzen Herrn Friedrich
Christian im Nahmen der Kön. Universität
und in deren Hörsaal am 27. May 1786 ge
halten. Kiel 1786. P.

-----------

Caroline - from 1808 to 1829 (pp. 595-596).

Caroline IloEon-Gri.DiiEKo. Freo., Kloverbladet. Til Tvil-
lingrigets Caroline den lt. Oct. 180». l\ St.
2 Bl. [Digt.]

Fock, Jon. Geo.. Anreden und Gebote bey der
Confirmation I. К. II. der Kronprinzessin
Caroline von üilnnomark, Norwegen ote. in
dor Schloszkirche zu Kiel don 9. Oct. ISO!).
Ki.l. V.

—, TilttUer og Bonner ved H. K. IL Kronprind-
sesse Carolines Confirmation i Slotskirken i
Kiel .leu 9. Oct. Oversat af BeRoe Henh.
Knap. Kbh. P.

[Staffeldt, Ad. Wim. Schach], An die Kron
prinzessin von Diinnemark nach Ihrer Con
firmation in der Schloszkirche zu Kiel am
1). Oct. 1809. Kph. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

Ihro Kön. Hoheiten, den Prinzessinnen Karo
line und Wilhelmine, bei Höchstihrer An
wesenheit in Gh'ickstndt, am 8. Juli 1823 ehr
furchtsvoll gewidmet. U.St. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt
trykt paa Atlask.]

[IIoeoh-Gui.dbero, Fred.], Min гГак. Heiliget. I
ved Hjemkomsten, IL K. IL Kronprinsessen, i
der naadigst havde overleveret sino kongolige I

Foraßldro trendo af mig forudsendte Digte.
Kbh. 1823. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

Please note, I merely copied and pasted from the text, which caused the presence of OCR scanning errors.

To hopefully make my position clearer: There is no assumption from me that the entries, or my own interpretation of them, are indisputably correct. I think it would be reasonable, though, as I have presented a source, for assertions that they/I am incorrect to also be presented together with a supporting source or evidence.

[Muhler]

I'll look forward to having a closer look. In a day or two.
Alas, my work tends to get in the way of important things.

[LauraS3514]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

In summary, as I understand it:


1. Prince of Asturias: heir presumptive, male or female, automatic.


2. Prince of Orange: heir presumptive, male or female, automatic.


3. Crown Prince (Scandinavia): heir apparent only, previously male only, automatic.


4. Prince of Wales: heir apparent only, male only, must be granted separately.
.

5. Duke of Brabant: eldest child of the King, automatic; if the Duke of Brabant has issue and the King outlives the Duke of Brabant, the title passes automatically to the Duke's eldest child.

In the UK, the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir apparent is automatically "Duke of Cornwall" and "Duke of Rothsay." Since the next three heirs are all male, it is currently unknown what will happen if Prince George's eldest child is a daughter. But that is a question for many years down the road!

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Louise - from 1730 to 1743 (pg. 372).


(1)

Sparkier. [Ped.], Hiertelig Velsignelse over Cron-Princesse Lovise. paa Hds. Kgl. Heyheds Fedsels-Dag den 19. Oct, 1736, i eftorfolgende Cantata. Kbh. Fol. 2 Bl.

—, Paa Cron-Princesse Lovises Fedsels-Dag don 19. Oct. 1739. Kbh. Fol. pat. 1 Bl. [Digt.]

-----------


Sophia Magdalena - from 1746 to 1766 (pp. 444-445).


(2)

Kaai.und, Hans Wilii., En allerunderd. Lyk
onskning til Kron-Princesse Sophia Magda
lene paa Sin pan Fredensborg celebrerede
Fedsels-Feat den 3. Julii 1764. Kbh. 2 Bl.

(2A) —, Til Hds. Kgl. Heyh. Kron-Prindsesse
Sophia Magdalena paa Sin paa Fredensborg
celebrerede Fedsels-Fest, den 3. Julii 1765.
Kbh. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

? — , Matth. 11. Cap. 10. Vers, forrestillet i aller
underd. Lykonskning til Herr Groove Adam
Horn, i Anl. af Deres Excellences Ankörnst
til Kiobenhavn den 16. Sept. 1766. Kbh. 4.
2 Bl. [Digt.]

I Wehner, Matth.], Til H. Excel. Grève Adam
Horn. Den 5. Oct. 1766. Kiepenh. 4. 4 Bl.
[Digt.]

(3) Kaalunp, Hans Wilh., Denne dobbelte For-
madilings Fest, forestillet i en allerunderd.
Lykonskning til den imellem Kron-Prinds
(instavus til Sverrig og Kron-Princesse S<>-
]ihin Magdalene paa Christiansborg Slot fuld-
byrdede Procurations Formadilings Act, den
10. [!] Oct. 17(>(>. som og til cien imellem Kong
Christian den Syvende til Danniark etc. og
Princesse Caroline Mathilde i London cele-
brerede Procurations Formaehling. U.St. 4.
2 Bl. [Digt]

(3a) Bik, Jac. Chr.. I Anl. af 1). Kgl. Ileih. Kron-
prints Gustav af Sverrig og Kronprinces.se So
phie Magdalene af Dannemark, Deres heie
Formamling, ere felgende Synge-Stykker i Mu-
siqve udferte ved Jon. Anth. Musjíus. Khh.
4. 4 Bl. [Digt.]

(3B) Barchíi's, A. G., Vid den höga Formälning
emellan Svea-Rikes Kron-Prins Gustaf och
Prinsessa Sophia Magdalena d. 1. Oct. 1766 i
Köpenhamn. Köpenh. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]
Werner, Matth., Til Hs. Kongl. Högh. Kron-
Printzessan Sophia Magdalena pá des höga
Formälings Dag, den 1. Oct. 1766. Kiöpenh.
4. 4 Bl. [Digt.]

(3c) [Neuohs, Johs.], Carmina occasione connubii
Sophia; Magdalena» cum Principe Gustavo,
in scola Fridericiensi publice rccitata . una
cum floribus Friderico <^vinti> in itim-re Hol-
satico sparsis, hoc programniate offeruntur.
Ao. 1776. U. St. 4. P. SPr.

(3D) Ceremonial, вот kommer at i akt tayas aid lis.
Kyl. Höyh. Cron-Printsens tilkommende Gemtils.
Printseszans Sophia Magdalena* af Dannemark
nà emottayande a Sirensk bottn, кот Renan hit,
Intáyet iiti Residencet, och then hiir til skeende
Bilâgers-Fêten. Stockh. 1766. 4. P.

(3E) Wollenst râle . M. G.. Göteborgs Fägnad rid
Kron-Prins Gustafs och Kron-Princessan Sophia
Magdalenas höga Formäling i Stockholm den i.
Nor. 1766, tolkad i en kort Tal samme Dag i
Kongl. Gymnasia. Götheb. 4. P. [Digt.]

-----------

Louise Augusta - from 1771 to 1786 (pp. 553-554).


(4)

Olsen, G. H., Sang paa Kronprindsessens Lo-
visa Augustas Fedselsdag, den 7. Julii 1784.
КЫ.. 2 Bl.

Olsen, P. В., Sang paa Kronprindsessens Lo-
visa Augustas Fedselsdag den 7. Julii 1784.
Kbh. 2 Bl.

(5) Tanker i Anl. af lids. Kgl. Heih. Kron-Prin-
zessens Loviaae Augusta1 hoie Fedsols-Dag den
7. Julii 1785. Kbh. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

(6) Bastholm, Chr., Confirmations-Acton, da Hds.
Kgl. Heih. Kronprintsesse Louise Augusta
blev den 25. Sept. 1785 i Christiansborg Slots-
kirke bekr^ftet i sin Daabs-Pagt. Kbh. 4. P.

(7) Andreses', Cl., ITds. Kgl. Hoih. Cronprindsesse
Louisa Augusta paa hendes heio Formadilings-
dag hell iget. Kbh. 1786. Fol. 2B1. [Digt.]

(7a) Hersom, Lars W., De lucbnendendo 8itele-Evner
paa Forma'hlingsdagen den 27. May 1780, da
Friderik Christian til Augustenborg forbandt
sig ved on JSgteforening med Printsesse Lovisa
Augusta. Kbh. 4 Bl. [Digt.] (U. ВЛ

(7b) Pram, [Christen He.vriksen], Cantate ved det
Kgl. Kiebenhavnske Universitets Heitidelig-

hed, i Anl. af Kronprindsessens Louises Ali
sta) Forimeling med Prinds Frederik Christian
af Slesvig-Augustenborg opfert den 1. Junii
1786. Musiken af Kunzen. Kbh. 4 Bl.

[Soldin, Jac], Sang i Anl. af Kronprindsesse
Lovise Augustas Fornneling med Friderich
Christian til Holstein- Augustenborg den 27.
Maji 178(i. Allerunderd. foranstaltet af den
hoitydske jodiske Nations Forstandere og af-
siunget i deres Synagog paa den heie For-
maelings-Dag. Paa Hebraisk forfattet og til
lige fordansket. [Kbh. 1786.] 4. P.

[Thaarup, Thon.], Samtale ved Formadings-
Acten imellem Kronprindsesse Lovisa Augusta
og Arveprinds Friderich Christian til Slesvig-
Ilolsteen-Sonderborg, den 27. May 1786. Kbh.
4 Bl.

En Sang i Anl. af lis. Durc.hl. Printzens af
Augustenborg Formading med vores allernaad.
Kronprintzesse. Kbh. [1786.] 4 Bl.

Hymne til Hds. Kgl. Hoih. Prindsesse Lovisa
Augusta og Hs. Durchl. Prinds Friderich
Christian af Augustenborg den 27. Mai 1786.
Med tilhorende Musik. Kbh. 4. P.

Nordens Fryde-Sang i Anl. af Prindsesse Lovisa
Augusta Forniwling den 27. Maji 1786 med
Prinds Friderich Christian til Holstein-Augu
stenborg, som paa Christiansborg Slot solen-
niter blev celebreret. Kbh. 4 Bl.

Tvilling-Kigcts Ghedes-Sang ved Kron-Prinoesse
Lovise Augustes Forinading med Prinds Friede
rich Christian til Holsleen-Augustenborg den
27. Mai 1786. [Kbh.] 4 Bl.

[.Jonstone, James], The robbing of the nunnery;
or the abbess out-witted. A Danish ballad
[э: Kloster-Kanet], translated into English in
the style of the 16. century. U. St. 1786. P.
[Dansk og Engelsk.] [Indledet med et Digt
paa Latin dat.: May xxvii MDCCLxxxvi.]

Christi ANi, Wilh. Ernst , Rede auf das Ver-
mählungs-Fost der Kronprinzeszin Louise Au
guste und des Erbprinzen Herrn Friedrich
Christian im Nahmen der Kön. Universität
und in deren Hörsaal am 27. May 1786 ge
halten. Kiel 1786. P.

-----------

Caroline - from 1808 to 1829 (pp. 595-596).


(8)

Caroline IloEon-Gri.DiiEKo. Freo., Kloverbladet. Til Tvil-
lingrigets Caroline den lt. Oct. 180». l\ St.
2 Bl. [Digt.]

(8A) Fock, Jon. Geo.. Anreden und Gebote bey der
Confirmation I. К. II. der Kronprinzessin
Caroline von üilnnomark, Norwegen ote. in
dor Schloszkirche zu Kiel don 9. Oct. ISO!).
Ki.l. V.

(8B) —, TilttUer og Bonner ved H. K. IL Kronprind-
sesse Carolines Confirmation i Slotskirken i
Kiel .leu 9. Oct. Oversat af BeRoe Henh.
Knap. Kbh. P.

[Staffeldt, Ad. Wim. Schach], An die Kron
prinzessin von Diinnemark nach Ihrer Con
firmation in der Schloszkirche zu Kiel am
1). Oct. 1809. Kph. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

Ihro Kön. Hoheiten, den Prinzessinnen Karo
line und Wilhelmine, bei Höchstihrer An
wesenheit in Gh'ickstndt, am 8. Juli 1823 ehr
furchtsvoll gewidmet. U.St. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt
trykt paa Atlask.]

(9) [IIoeoh-Gui.dbero, Fred.], Min гГак. Heiliget. I
ved Hjemkomsten, IL K. IL Kronprinsessen, i
der naadigst havde overleveret sino kongolige I

Foraßldro trendo af mig forudsendte Digte.
Kbh. 1823. 4. 2 Bl. [Digt.]

I finally have a little time to look closer at your post. - And I have put on my mot critical glasses, mind you!

I've added numbers:
(1) That's a reference to a cantata performed on Louise's birthday. - Looks like a journal, rather than an official record, so it could be a mistake by the author.

(2) Well wishes on Sophia Magdalene's birthday. Noted by someone who wished to see his well-wishes being noted, I imagine...
Could be a mistake.

(3) Are all well wishes and references to to SM being married to the Swedish crown prince and as such she became crown princess of Sweden.
Prayers were of course to be said in Danish churches on the occasion - as well as announced to people.

(4) A reference to someone singing at Louisa Augusta's b-day.
Could be a mistake by the author.

(5) Someone publishing a poem on LA's b-day.

(6) A reference to LA's confirmation and in my opinion a serius contender to you being proved right.

(7) References to to LA's wedding to Prince Augustenborg - The Augustenborg line were IIRC the ducal line of Schleswig Holestein. - Cantata, prayers, singing(praising) and a sermon.
Could be a misunderstanding by the authors.

(8) References to Caroline's confirmation.
Prayers, sermon and indoctrination. (The congregation was lectured by the priest back then.)
8B is a reference to her confirmation taking place in Kiel, using the reference crown princess, but in the next paragraph merely princess.
- No decisive proof IMO.

(9) A happy guy writing about his poem, praising Caroline no doubt(!), which she had presented to her parents, who were pleased.
So no surprise if he use crown princess...

And now for the link you summitted. Danish Statistics from 1848 - the first Constitution and a review of Kongeloven. (The laws specifically regarding the king andthe royal family.)
https://books.google.dk/books?id=S4F...page&q&f=false

It's pretty detailed and I'd say the best evidence for your point would be found here.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I finally have a little time to look closer at your post. - And I have put on my mot critical glasses, mind you!

I've added numbers:
(1) That's a reference to a cantata performed on Louise's birthday. - Looks like a journal, rather than an official record, so it could be a mistake by the author.

(2) Well wishes on Sophia Magdalene's birthday. Noted by someone who wished to see his well-wishes being noted, I imagine...
Could be a mistake.

[...]

It could be that the entire list of authors made mistakes, yes, though it strikes me as an unlikely scenario.
But I await your list of incontrovertibly unmistaken authors who wrote that they were not crown princesses.

Edited to add after Muhler updated his post to comment on the other documents: Thank you for summarizing the remainder of the list as well! It is much easier to understand with your annotations.

Originally Posted by Muhler

(3) Are all well wishes and references to to SM being married to the Swedish crown prince and as such she became crown princess of Sweden.

Interesting thought, but by that interpretation, why was her husband referenced as Crown Prince of Sweden whereas she was referenced as Crown Princess of Denmark? And why were other princesses not referenced by the titles of their husbands until after marriage?

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

All I was stating in my replies to you is that I see no reason to disbelieve the "archaic Danish and German texts from the 1700s" - which state that Louise, Sophie Magdalene, Louise Augusta, and Caroline were all titled Crown Princess at one time - when no evidence has been presented to rebut them.

I looked through your documents and was a bit irritated when I did not see one any official proclamation. Now I have no idea if there was anything like that for a daughter who was to be married anyway or would live quietly at her father's or brother's court as a spinster.


But for me it is so uncommon to call a daughter of a king the "Crown Princess" in any meaning that comes clear to what the "Crown"-in this compilation of words - means today. And other countries that I know more of around this time did not use the word (like France who had a formerly regional title that always belonged to the heir turned into a title of the heir - Dauphin de Viennoise became "Monseigneur le Dauphin (de France)" or The Duke of Rothesay was the title of the heir to the Scottish throne).


So I guess it was a way to distinguish king's daughters from their cousins from lower branches of the family who as well were considered "princesses".



In France eg any "princesse" was either born or had married into the Royal family, see eg "La Princesse de Lamballe", Marie Antoinette's friend, who was a princess of Savoy-Carignan who had married Louis-Alexandre de Bourbon, prince de Lamballe, a male-line great-grandson of Louis XIV. Like the French and later British did with the title "Princess Royal" - to show that this lady was the firstborn daughter of the king or queen regnant and thus someone special in all the princesses from the Royal House or Royal blood.



I think this use of the word "Kron"-Prinzessin in both Danish and German old documents is to show the close blood relationship with the wearer of the Crown and the princess.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

So I guess it was a way to distinguish king's daughters from their cousins from lower branches of the family who as well were considered "princesses".

If you look through the documents, the use of Crown Princess was reserved for wives of Crown Princes and, when there was no married Crown Prince, unmarried eldest daughters of Kings. Married daughters (eldest or younger) used the titles of their husbands, whereas unmarried younger daughters usually used the title Princess.

[Muhler]

Previous post was too long, so here is the last bit:

- In conclusion, and still wearing my skeptical hat, I'll say that it was not uncommon to refer to the first (or perhaps all) royal daughters as being crown princess. The law of 1848 said, I noticed, that the title prince or princess apply to princes/princesses of the blood only - even though that appeares to be the strictest interpretation. So in say 1850 Mary might not have been titled a princess let alone a crown princess. It would, I assume, have been up to the monarch, pretty much as it is today.

So apart from the single case where a princess was officially titled crown princess, I will maintain that doing so for any other princess was by mistake/ignorance, an attempt of flattery or misunderstandings.
So unless you can produce and official letter signed by the king or another senior royal I will stand by the official stance here in DK: That there has only been one exeption from the rule that the title of crown princess is only for the woman married to the crown prince.

Was in common in German principalities to style the oldest daughter crown princess? Because that would explain a lot.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

It could be that the entire list of authors made mistakes, yes, though it strikes me as an unlikely scenario.
But I await your list of incontrovertibly unmistaken authors who wrote that they were not crown princesses.




Interesting thought, but by that interpretation, why was her husband referenced as Crown Prince of Sweden whereas she was referenced as Crown Princess of Denmark? And why were other princesses not referenced by the titles of their husbands until after marriage?

No problem.

Every source I have checked in Danish says the same: Only one deviance from the rule regarding crown princesses: Caroline.

I can list them if you really wish to.

But the burden of proof rests on you.
It's your claim, you prove it.

The links you presented are all at best inconclusive IMO.

Otherwise, write the court. The National Archives. The Royal Library. A royal expert.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Previous post was too long, so here is the last bit:

- In conclusion, and still wearing my skeptical hat, I'll say that it was not uncommon to refer to the first (or perhaps all) royal daughters as being crown princess. The law of 1848 said, I noticed, that the title prince or princess apply to princes/princesses of the blood only - even though that appeares to be the strictest interpretation. So in say 1850 Mary might not have been titled a princess let alone a crown princess. It would, I assume, have been up to the monarch, pretty much as it is today.

So apart from the single case where a princess was officially titled crown princess, I will maintain that doing so for any other princess was by mistake/ignorance, an attempt of flattery or misunderstandings.
So unless you can produce and official letter signed by the king or another senior royal I will stand by the official stance here in DK: That there has only been one exeption from the rule that the title of crown princess is only for the woman married to the crown prince.

But where was it stated that "the official stance here in Denmark" is "there hs been one exception from the rule that the title of crown princess is only for the woman married to the crown prince" and that the usage (which we agree was common) of Crown Princess for daughters was an unofficial mistake?

I will move my last reply to this post, as it applies here as well:

I am of course willing to reconsider should there be evidence even more reliable than the bibliography of documents published during the period of time when eldest daughters apparently used the title. But as of this moment, I have not seen any contemporary evidence (official or unofficial) demonstrating that the common usage of "Crown Princess" for eldest daughters was a mistake.

I respect your opinions, Muhler, but it appears we will have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Muhler

No problem.

Every source I have checked in Danish says the same: Only one deviance from the rule regarding crown princesses: Caroline.

I can list them if you really wish to.

If you have the time, that would be appreciated. If they are not accessible by link, it would also be helpful if you could quote or paraphrase their statement about the title and on what authority they make it.

Originally Posted by Muhler

But the burden of proof rests on you.
It's your claim, you prove it.

The links you presented are all at best inconclusive IMO.

The burden of proof rests on me regarding my claim. But you have made a claim as well, namely, that the eldest daughters constantly referred to by Danish/German authors as Crown Princesses were officially not supposed to be referred to as Crown Princesses.

Inconclusive or not, I presented the link to, and quoted from, the most reliable source on which I based my statement, and it would be fair for you to do the same.


Edit for clarification: I have no idea whether the title of Crown Princess was subject to any form of a formal grant. But I have trouble believing that the Court would not put a stop to the widespread use if the King did not informally approve.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

But where was it stated that "the official stance here in Denmark" is "there hs been one exception from the rule that the title of crown princess is only for the woman married to the crown prince" and that the usage (which we agree was common) of Crown Princess for daughters was an unofficial mistake?

I will move my last reply to this post, as it applies here as well:

I am of course willing to reconsider should there be evidence even more reliable than the bibliography of documents published during the period of time when eldest daughters apparently used the title. But as of this moment, I have not seen any contemporary evidence (official or unofficial) demonstrating that the common usage of "Crown Princess" for eldest daughters was a mistake.

I respect your opinions, Muhler, but it appears we will have to agree to disagree.

That we will.

Because I will not spend hours looking for unicorns.
It should, I believe, be a fairly straightforward matter to find references in Danish to royal daughters being titled crown princess, if that was common practice, using simple search patterns. I can't though.

I suggest you read this interesting biography of Caroline, the only one who was titled crown princess. Even in this fairly detailed biography she is only titled princess. - I didn't know her face was scarred due to burns BTW.
387 (Dansk biografisk Lexikon / III. Bind. Brandt - Clavus)

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

It should, I believe, be a fairly straightforward matter to find references in Danish to royal daughters being titled crown princess, if that was common practice, using simple search patterns. I can't though.

I suggest you read this interesting biography of Caroline, the only one who was titled crown princess. Even in this fairly detailed biography she is only titled princess.

Please understand, Muhler, that I indeed have spent time searching for Danish references to royal eldest daughters being titled as plain Princess, as well as references to royal eldest daughters being titled as Crown Princess. This is what I meant by writing that "Historians of today normally call them Princesses, but the titles are always written in 17th and 18th century publications."

The reason I chose to accept the references to Crown Princess as being more reliable is that they were published at a time when the daughters were living public figures. The references to Princess were more modern, and my interpretation was that they likely reflect the modern titulature which reserves Crown Princess for wives of Crown Princes.

Historical figures are frequently titled in a different fashion in the present day than how they were titled in their own lifetime. As you said, Caroline, whom you agree had official permission to be titled Crown Princess, is usually referred to today as Princess.

If anyone presents an official proclamation one way or the other, I will consider that a reliable source.

Originally Posted by Muhler

- I didn't know her face was scarred due to burns BTW.
387 (Dansk biografisk Lexikon / III. Bind. Brandt - Clavus)

Thank you for the biography! I look forward to reading more about her.