Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?

[XeniaCasaraghi]

So pulling the guards protecting the Empress and her sick children and wearing red isn't a betrayal?

Despite the known feelings For the Empress, but leaving sick kids unprotected, that's a hanging offense in my book...

It definitely fits into the text book definition of betrayal. I don't know if I would say it is a hanging offense, but it is pretty damn close. I mean that alone disqualifies him and his descendants, a part from the unequal marriage which is just icing on the cake. It's just infuriating that someone who did such a thing would even remotely think he can claim to be the head of the IF after the real head was murdered.

 

[Cory]

In 1924 Grand Duke Kirill was recognized by the dynast members of the Imperial Family as Head and "de iure Tsar" .They would have never recognized a "traitor" as their Head I suppose.

 

[AristoCat]

Well, I read in the Greg King biography of Alexandra, is that Cyril was never granted retroactive permission, which left a taint on his lineal claim to the Imperial throne.

 

[branchg]

In 1924 Grand Duke Kirill was recognized by the dynast members of the Imperial Family as Head and "de iure Tsar" .They would have never recognized a "traitor" as their Head I suppose.

Grand Duke Nicholas and Grand Duke Peter both refused to recognize Cyril's claim for his actions in St. Petersburg. But they were the only surviving dynasts who withheld recognition of his assumption of the imperial title in-exile. The rest of the family publicly did.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Cyril's ostensible purpose in going over to the Duma early in the revolution was to "protect" the Imperial House and the Tsar but in reality, he had hoped to be made Regent and perhaps eventually named Tsar. When the monarchists in the Duma repudiated him, and the rest of the Duma was not interested in Cyril but Misha as a possible Regent, Cyril exploded in anger in a letter he wrote to Grand Duke Paul.

Cyril may have had a legal claim to be head of the Imperial House but his actions betrayed him; he was unscrupulous and traitorous and morally could not claim to lead the Romanovs.

 

[AristoCat]

Cyril may have had a legal claim to be head of the Imperial House but his actions betrayed him; he was unscrupulous and traitorous and morally could not claim to lead the Romanovs.

To think, he also did that to his own family; ambition aside, he should have done something to save his family. He owed them that much, surely. Even when there was a hope that one of the Imperial familiy might have survived, it is unfathomable that he was so quick to claim headship, right over the cold body of the Dowager Empress.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I remember Massie saying that Cyril claimed to be the head before Maria was dead and while she was still refusing to accept that her son and family were dead.
I don't think Cyril did anything to hurt or get the IF killed, he was just too stupid and ambitious and wanted to make it in good with the new regime, before the old regime was gone. I'm pretty sure that is a traitorous act in a lot of countries.

 

[genegirl99]

I wonder if Miechen would have done something for the children despite her differences with the Empress....

You think a stunt like Edward VI of England would have crossed a Romanov's mind. Let woman pass their claim to their sons. Too bad Tsar Paul was too blinded by Mommy Hatred to even think of that... It might have put a different spin on this debate...

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder if Miechen would have done something for the children despite her differences with the Empress....

No doubt; the kids would have been surrounded by their family and given all the love and support they needed. No doubt Cyril would have had to be restrained from marrying Olga off to his son Boris. The Romanovs would not have let them fend for themselves.

 

[Cory]

I suppose we have a thread dedicated to Grand Duke Kirill.Here we speak about the head of the Imperial House.

 

[genegirl99]

I suppose we have a thread dedicated to Grand Duke Kirill.Here we speak about the head of the Imperial House.

Sometimes the children pay for the sins of their parents. So yah, what Kyril did can be considered relevant to the debate.

 

[vorky]

Sometimes the children pay for the sins of their parents. So yah, what Kyril did can be considered relevant to the debate.

yes, but it has nothing to do with legal point of view. It is political/social matter.

 

[Cory]

The crown of Russia is inherited automatically respecting the laws of the imperial House.To have this title nowhere is written you should be declared saint first.

 

[AristoCat]

Too bad Tsar Paul was too blinded by Mommy Hatred to even think of that... It might have put a different spin on this debate...

I don't blame him entirely; his mother treated him like he was insignificant and really, really failed to treat him with the respect he deserved as Heir. Anyway, it's too bad that Maria is on the outs instead of 'part of the team.' She would make an impressive asset and an intimidating foe to any family enemies if she were united with them.

 

[Cory]

There are many aristocrats of russian origin not only the group giuded by prince Nicholas Romanov(sky).Why should the Grand Duchess listen to a group that makes a lot of problems about her rights?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I do blame Paul, so Catherine wasn't a good mother, cry me a river and get over it. What he did was spiteful and screwed Russia. He didn't think of anything except his own personal vendetta against a dead woman. And considering the kind of Tsar Paul turned out to be, Catherine had the right frame of mind preferring Alexander to him. That's my rant against crazy Tsar Paul.

 

[AristoCat]

I think this has plagued social and genealogical experts since the Revolution, no? I bet this would take a full team of forensic legal experts and genealogists to figure out. Then it would take a genuis of a diplomat to get everyone to agree.

 

[NotAPretender]

There are many aristocrats of russian origin not only the group giuded by prince Nicholas Romanov(sky).Why should the Grand Duchess listen to a group that makes a lot of problems about her rights?

So - she should only listen to those who agree with her? She should pretend to be an autocrat as she pretends to everything else?

Yes, that fits.

 

[NotAPretender]

I think this has plagued social and genealogical experts since the Revolution, no? I bet this would take a full team of forensic legal experts and genealogists to figure out. Then it would take a genuis of a diplomat to get everyone to agree.

I doubt even then, AristoCat.

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder, would it be possible that if Maria were to step down from her 'rights,' that Georgi might be an acceptable Head of Romanov if he were to be more independent from his mother? Maybe they have the problem with Maria, not Georgi? He oculd then marry someone from the Prince Nicholas camp and then the warring branches would be unified and then things between the two could finally settle.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Just my opinion, which still doesn't matter because Im not Russian, but Georgi is still a descendant of C. Vladimir. As long as descendants of Xenia and Olga Romanov are alive, I will always think they should be the Heads. What is your opinion on the question you asked AristoCat?

 

[AristoCat]

I think that the children to descend from Xenia and Olga should be the heads since after all, they are of the most direct line and closest relation to Nicholas II after all. But something has to be done to neutralize Maria Vladimirovna and someone has to liberate Georgi from under his mother's thumb. Maria keeps rubbing shoulders with Putin, Medvedev, and making an increasing fool of herself in the eyes of the Russian people who don't view her or her son as some rightful rulers or representatives over them. Maria is making a fool of the Romanov name and also she keeps pushing herself into a position of power, or influence even, and it's kind of pathetic.

Considering what the Russians did to the Romanovs, the fact that Maria's mother and father are buried there and had an honorable funeral, I would say she has qutie a bit already and her pushing to have the Imperial Family have an honorable burial is quite frankly great. But she needs to stop pushing for a restoration in the old way, with herself as head, which isn't going to happen by a longshot. Not at all with her as head and not via Georgi and a foreign princess with no Russian lineage.

 

[Lenora]

Totally agree,when I first knew about how distant was Maria Vladimirovna from the last Tsar in the matter of blood lines,I was very surprised that the sisters of Tsar hadn't been taken into consideration,while they were the closest relatives of him.

 

[AristoCat]

So was I really. It's like Cyril snatched it right away and then completely shoved Xenia and Olga to the side with no consideration. It's no wonder really that he was so resented by the rest and so is Maria. Maria is parading around rights and making declarations she has no business making while she pretty much keeps her son a hostage to her delusions. She has lineage, yes, but she does not at all have right by relation to run things according to her will and wishes. Xenia and Olga have had kids and I personally think that while Rotislav has the correct and entirely legitimate claim, she would be such an asset if she could exorcise that relentless ambition of hers. And let her son have a life of his own as well.

 

[BaronessMary]

No she is not a woman cannot hold headship when their is other males that are close or distant cousin who follow all the laws she does not even
follow one being she is not a man this takes her out of the equation.

If you read the laws of succession, a woman can take head of the house ONLY when all other eligible male heirs are extinct.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

All other male heirs aren't extinct. And a few of them are closer to Nicholas II than she is.

 

[NGalitzine]

I think Maria, and her father and grandfather before her, have backed the family into a corner by insisting on the equal marriages after they went into exile and long after the reigning families abandoned the same rules. They effectively have said all other branches of the family are no longer Romanoffs because of this, ignoring questions about Leonidas own Bagration family status. What will she do if Georgi falls in love with a nice secretary whose father is a hardworking mechanic with no aristocratic links at all? If he married her the Romanoff dynasty as determined by Marias clan would cease to exist. Would she suddenly then decide that the rules need to be changed? If so then there would be a lot of male Romanoffs who might say they have a better claim to heading the family.

 

[BaronessMary]

I am confused a little bit. I will quote author of that study



It seems that Vladimir (de iure Emperor) claimed that [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=-1]Bagrations and cadet branch were royals. It could be seen as interpretation of Law by Emperor. I dont know, Does anybody have original of this Treaty about [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman][SIZE=-1]Bagrations? [/SIZE][/FONT]

The Bagrations never actually succeeded their claim on Georgia to the Romanovs. Therefore, they are officially a House in Exile. As a result this is an equal marriage on a technicality. With other houses not sticking to the rules of succession, and no legitimate male heir remaining, Maria is the only one left. Being from the House of Kyrill she would have made sure she complied.
I have heard that to change this, the monarchy would have to have been restored and a royal decree issued. I highly doubt this, personally.

 

[Stefan]

Totally agree,when I first knew about how distant was Maria Vladimirovna from the last Tsar in the matter of blood lines,I was very surprised that the sisters of Tsar hadn't been taken into consideration,while they were the closest relatives of him.

Because there whee still other male dynasts and the closest in relation to the Nikoluas II. was Cyril. In 1992 when Vladimir died all other males had lost their dyastic rights because of unequal marriages.

 

[NGalitzine]

The Bagrations never actually succeeded their claim on Georgia to the Romanovs. Therefore, they are officially a House in Exile. As a result this is an equal marriage on a technicality. With other houses not sticking to the rules of succession, and no legitimate male heir remaining, Maria is the only one left. Being from the House of Kyrill she would have made sure she complied.
I have heard that to change this, the monarchy would have to have been restored and a royal decree issued. I highly doubt this, personally.

Guess it is open to interpretation. When Princess Tatiana of Russia married a Prince Bagration she officially lost he admittedly distant right of succession to the throne because it was not an equal marriage. The Emperor said some very kind things about his regard and estimation of the Bagrations but Tatiana still lost he rights to the throne. Vladimir and Cryil gave a different interpretation on the status of the Bagration family when it came to Leonida.