Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[CSENYC]

MarleneKoenig, if you're willing to share, what happened to Irina to cause her to live her life as she did, and why are she and her children not close to the King and Queen?

I just don't get why someone who could have had an amazing and influential life seems to have decided to live a downscale life far away from family. As royalty, she could have been a prominent public figure, and she certainly could have married someone in high society and lived a comfortable life. King Michael just seems like such an honorable and decent man that I don't understand why the family isn't closer.

 

[Cory]

There is no document of HM the King regarding his third daughter and possible Succession published.

 

[Ish]

There is no document of HM the King regarding his third daughter and possible Succession published.

http://www.familiaregala.ro/ro/familia-regala-astazi/linia-de-succesiune/

Translation: http://translate.googleusercontent....siune/&usg=ALkJrhiriMbwKiQ9wGlLhGoeUoAH1SloEQ

 

[Cory]

That's not a document signed by the Sovereign but only a page from the official site of the Royal Family. Any change of the Document signed in 2007 could be done with a specific other document.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]I just don't get why someone who could have had an amazing and influential life seems to have decided to live a downscale life far away from family.[...]

The dethroned royal family of Romania, then cut off from their country and without any funds, most likely did not enjoy "an amazing and influential life"

[...]As royalty, she could have been a prominent public figure, and she certainly could have married someone in high society and lived a comfortable life. King Michael just seems like such an honorable and decent man that I don't understand why the family isn't closer.[...]

She is not "royalty" like the children of Queen Elizabeth II. She is a born royal but daughter of a dethroned King whom lived in exile during Communist rule. That is really a total different starting point.

There are also ladies who had the whole world at their feet: Lady Diana Spencer, Ms Sarah Ferguson, thanks to their marriage having access to the who-is-who in high society, with the rich and famous, without any financial worries and still did not manage to create a happy life....

 

[Ish]

That's not a document signed by the Sovereign but only a page from the official site of the Royal Family. Any change of the Document signed in 2007 could be done with a specific other document.

It may not be a document signed by the sovereign, but as it is his official site it reasons that this is his official decision and Irina has been removed from the succession.

There is no point in the site (in so far as I can see) that Irina is referred to as anything other than Irina Walker, so it also reasons that since this is the official site it means she's been stripped of her titles.

 

[Jacknch]

It may not be a document signed by the sovereign, but as it is his official site it reasons that this is his official decision and Irina has been removed from the succession.

There is no point in the site (in so far as I can see) that Irina is referred to as anything other than Irina Walker, so it also reasons that since this is the official site it means she's been stripped of her titles.

I think the situation is similar to the fact that Crown Princess Margarita is successor to the throne even though the current constitution does not allow it as previously discussed. As far as the King is concerned, he has removed Irina from the succession as per the website, but there is no legality in it as such. I THINK I've got this right but someone more clever than me may be able to confirm!

 

[Ish]

I think the situation is similar to the fact that Crown Princess Margarita is successor to the throne even though the current constitution does not allow it as previously discussed. As far as the King is concerned, he has removed Irina from the succession as per the website, but there is no legality in it as such. I THINK I've got this right but someone more clever than me may be able to confirm!

The situation is more complicated than that.

The current constitution of Romania establishes Romania as a republic. Therefore the government of Romania technically has no power to change the succession or to approve the changes to the succession, because they can't do so within their constitution.

However, the Romanian Royal Family's succession was governed by the constitution prior to the fall of the monarchy. Which means that in order for Michael's changes to be valid the government has to approve them - but would be operating with a no longer valid constitution.

It reasons that if the RRF were restored during Michael's lifetime then the succession that he's operating under - with Margarita being the heir presumptive, and Irina and her descendants being excluded - will be put into place, with Salic law and equal marriage requirements being abolished, and either male preference or equal primogeniture being established, as well as rules regarding the stripping of an individual's titles and succession rights.

If Michael dies without a restoration then it remains to be seen what kind of support his heirs will receive from the monarchists of Romania - if Nicholas and the monarchists support Margarita then I think Michael's wishes will continue to be reflected in the future, but if there's division within the family or the monarchists then what's being done now could fall apart.

Personally, I hope they remain a united front, because I think that's the best chance of a restoration (if the Romanians want it). If you look at Russia, the thing that really kills the chances of a restoration there is the fact that the people don't know who should be the Tsar in the event of a restoration. Without that clarity the monarchy is screwed.

 

[Cory]

When Monarchy is restored the Parliament will decide if HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern will be King or if the Line proposed by the King will be accepted.

" The Head of the Royal House of Romania may amend the
order of succession at any time, as evidenced by their hand
and seal. "(Fundamental Rules Of The Royal Family Of Romania , Chapter 3, 3). So the change regarding the third daughter of the King and her descendants?

 

[JR76]

When Monarchy is restored the Parliament will decide if HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern will be King or if the Line proposed by the King will be accepted.

I'm sure that if Romania does decide to reinstate the monarchy they'll choose to maintain the bloodline of King Michael instead of import a foreign prince without any real connection to the country. These kind of House pacts that for instance helped Luxemburg gain independence in the 1890's doesn't have any real meaning to the general public these days. Had the King not been forced to abdicate in 1947 I'm absolutely certain that once he didn't have any sons the rules of succession would've been changed like they have been changed all over Europe since the fifties.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[wartenberg7]

The support of monarchy derives from the popularity of King Michael´s dynasty, not from the Hohenzollerns who are hardly known (to the common people) in Romania.
IF there will ever be a restoration it is almost certain King Michael or his successor will be set back in office and nobody else.
The days of a small elite deciding which foreign Prince could be chosen for its own throne are well and truly over.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

No matter how we look at it, there is and remains a remarkable gap in the information concerning HRH Princess Irina of Romania, Princess of Hohenzollern, which are her titles by birth.

I am fine that apparently the Romanian Court likes to refer to her as Mrs Irina Walker and apparently we have to understand that the good lady is no longer in the line of succession, and most likely this extends to her children as well. At minimum the Romanian Court could have issued a communiqué about the style, title and form of address of Princess Irina, her children and their place in the succession. The sneaky way it all has been done, "read it between the lines" (work for kremlin-ologists and Vatican-watchers), does not speak in favour of the Romanian monarchy. It does not give the image of a modern, transparent Royal House. That is a shame.

 

[MAfan]

I'm sure that if Romania does decide to reinstate the monarchy they'll choose to maintain the bloodline of King Michael instead of import a foreign prince without any real connection to the country.

I'd also add (as I have already pointed out several time in the past, so forgive me for being repetitive) that the foreign prince in question in the past has already cleary stated that he isn't interested at all in Romania and in the Romanian succession. That would not be a good premise for calling it to reign as King of Romania.

 

[Cory]

The new president of Romania, Klaus Johannis, is a German but a Romanian citizen. we could have a German King in the future too.

 

[USCtrojan]

The new president of Romania, Klaus Johannis, is a German but a Romanian citizen. we could have a German King in the future too.

Just because the president is German, doesn't mean the future king will be a German. Romania is unlikely to choose someone so far from the family if and when the monarchy is restored.

The Crown Princess, and Prince Nikolai are far too popular to go unnoticed.

 

[Cory]

What do you mean with "far too popular"?
The Romanians really trust the Germans and even today a lot of them spoke about the good example of the first two Kings who were Germans and Catholic.

 

[JR76]

Klaus Johannis belongs to the Transylvanian Saxons, a minority that's been living in Romania since the thirteenth century so equaling him with a German prince without any connection to Romania is in my opinion a bit off the mark.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Cory]

HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern has the same percentage of Romanian blood as Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills.

 

[Ish]

HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern has the same percentage of Romanian blood as Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills.

Yes, a man who was not born in Romania, has no immediate ancestors from Romania, and has never lived in Romania is comparable to a man whose grandfather and great-grandfather were both born in Romania and whose great-great grandfather spent much of his life in Romania and died in Romania.

 

[Cory]

The King who unified the country had not been born in Romania either.

 

[Admiral Horthy]

Yes, a man who was not born in Romania, has no immediate ancestors from Romania, and has never lived in Romania is comparable to a man whose grandfather and great-grandfather were both born in Romania and whose great-great grandfather spent much of his life in Romania and died in Romania.

Not to mention he was no doubt born outside of Romania because his grandfather, THE KING, was in exile.

 

[Cory]

Both HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern and Nicholas de Roumanie-Medforth Mills were born in other countries than Romania and were not educated in Romanian. Both have the same percentage of Romanian blood. Both were completely unknown to the Romanians until recently. HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern is the Successor according to the Constitution of 1923 while Nicholas de Roumanie-Medforth Mills is on the List of Succession wanted by HM the King. The Parliament will decide in the future if the Monarchy is restored who will be the next King.

 

[Marengo]

IIRC you were championing prince Nicholas for years, but recently you seem to have changed your opinion.
I am rather curious to know what happened that changed your view.

 

[Cory]

I suppose Nicholas de Roumanie-Medforth Mills has all the chances to be chosen by a future Parliament as Successor to HM the King. Until then I can't deny the rights of Succession of HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern and I do not know how HH Prince Karl will react in the future regarding the Succession.

 

[Cory]

For a long period of time I said HM the King would announce and propose a new Line of Succession where his grandson will be seen as a symbol of continuity and I was right. This has nothing to do with the right of the Parliament to decide the Restoration of Monarchy and the Line of Succession. If the arliament won't agree with the Line proposed by HM the King then HH Prince Karl (or a Prince of Hohenzollern) will be proclaimed King.

 

[Andy T]

For a long period of time I said HM the King would announce and propose a new Line of Succession where his grandson will be seen as a symbol of continuity and I was right. This has nothing to do with the right of the Parliament to decide the Restoration of Monarchy and the Line of Succession. If the arliament won't agree with the Line proposed by HM the King then HH Prince Karl (or a Prince of Hohenzollern) will be proclaimed King.

Not necessarily. If the Parliament decides/proposes that the form of government should be a constitutional monarchy, it can also decide to name/propose whomever it wants to be King or Queen and that could be Margarita, Nicolae, Karl, Paul (heavens forbid) or someone completely different. And quite rightly so. Personally, I am 100% behind HM King Michael's proposal for the succession but the essence of most constitutional monarchies is that sovereignty lies with the Monarch in Parliament.

 

[Cory]

I suppose it is clear the Parliament will decide and until then we do not know who will be King in the future.

 

[Cory]

If we look at the Introduction of the Fundamental Rules of the Royal Family of Romania we read in the Introduction:"Our family traditions do and shall always include the Christian Orthodox faith, which shall also serve as a guiding principle in all future decisions. Whilst respecting the freedom of belief and conscience of the individual, all members of the Dynasty shall be members of the Christian Orthodox faith." Can we speak about freedom of conscience in this context? It is considered not acceptable the Romanian Princess should be excluded from the Succession (as stated in 1923) but it is acceptable somebody must belong only to a certain Church?

 

[Mbruno]

If we look at the Introduction of the Fundamental Rules of the Royal Family of Romania we read in the Introduction:"Our family traditions do and shall always include the Christian Orthodox faith, which shall also serve as a guiding principle in all future decisions. Whilst respecting the freedom of belief and conscience of the individual, all members of the Dynasty shall be members of the Christian Orthodox faith." Can we speak about freedom of conscience in this context? It is considered not acceptable the Romanian Princess should be excluded from the Succession (as stated in 1923) but it is acceptable somebody must belong only to a certain Church?

As of today, the monarchs of Denmark, Norway and Sweden must belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Furthermore, in Sweden in particular, princes of the royal house who are not raised in the Lutheran faith are removed from the line of succession.

In the UK, on the other hand, the monarch of course must be in communion with the Protestant Episcopal Church of England and the line of succession is restricted to the legitimate "protestant descendants" of Sophia of Hanover.

Other monarchies seem to have modernized though. The Belgian and Spanish monarchies are traditionally Catholic, but there is no legal impediment to the king following another religion or being an atheist for example. In the Netherlands, rhe reigning House of Orange is historically reformed (Calvinist) protestant, but there is no official requirement that the monarch himself be protestant. In practice, however, Willem-Alexander insisted that his daughters were baptized in the PKN (the Protestant Church in the Netherlands), even though their mother is Catholic.

 

[Cory]

The Kings of Romania must be Kings of all Romanians so they must be free to choose their own faith if they want to do so.