Romanov Rescue 1917-1919: Action and Inaction

[Avicenna]

Hans Bodo Graf von Alvensleben-Neugattersleben 1882 - 1961

yes - this one exists. Sorry for being blind before and thanks for the answer.

Never mind, my father and my grandmother always used to talk polish when we were young (coming from Silesia, they left Poland in 1958) and I wouln't learn their language either. Today I deeply regret my early laziness.

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PS Both - Wilhelm II and Alvensleben-Neugattersleben were members of the Corps Borussia Bonn, another member was Eulenburg (prussian "Ministerpräsident" from 1892 - 1994 BTW.

 

[AGRBear]

My not learning German, now, is laziness. Then, it was shedding the German to be an American.

Here is his info in German on wikipedia, which may have something you can use:

Hans Bodo Graf von Alvensleben-Neugattersleben – Wikipedia

AGRBear

 

[espejor]

The only that was very interested in to save Nicholas II and his family was King Alfonso XIII of Spain (he saved thousand of prisoners during WWI).

George V didn't do anything (he was afraid of the reactions of laborist party, and Alexandra was a German princess). Kaiser William II didn't do anything either (he could save Russian Imperial Family when he signed the peace with Russia, and he didn't do that, but he liberated a very important communist prisoner for example). USA didn't save Nicholas II because in USA the people thought that Nicholas II was an anti-jews.

Regards!!

 

[RoyalistRiley]

I guess George V not taking in his cousins is a case of being able to choose your friends and not your family. Nicholas would have recieved a hostile reception and almost certainly caused a severe anti-monarchy protests and the government of the day would have expressed alarm/disapproval and put George in an awkward position, but I don't think it would have led to a republic.

 

[MAfan]

The only that was very interested in to save Nicholas II and his family was King Alfonso XIII of Spain (he saved thousand of prisoners during WWI).

George V didn't do anything (he was afraid of the reactions of laborist party, and Alexandra was a German princess). Kaiser William II didn't do anything either (he could save Russian Imperial Family when he signed the peace with Russia, and he didn't do that, but he liberated a very important communist prisoner for example). USA didn't save Nicholas II because in USA the people thought that Nicholas II was an anti-jews.

Regards!!

Moreover, Wilhelm II had bad personal relationship with Nicholas and, mostly, Alexandra; and we know that he was not so lucid and rational to think something going over his personal troubles with someone...

 

[Russophile]

Moreover, Wilhelm II had bad personal relationship with Nicholas and, mostly, Alexandra; and we know that he was not so lucid and rational to think something going over his personal troubles with someone...

Willy didn't get on well with anybody. I think even Granny had issues with him. . .

 

[susan alicia]

Theater play The House of Special Purpose

The House of Special Purpose

I wish I could go see this play:

Ekaterinberg, 1918. A wooden stockade surrounds a requisitioned house. Inside, the deposed Tsar of Russia is imprisoned with his wife, four daughters and invalid teenage son. Stripped of Imperial privilege, they are held captive by a ragtag detachment of Communist soldiers – raw young men recruited from the lowest ranks. The girls are on the brink of womanhood, their parents bowed beneath the weight of an all-consuming marriage. For one brief and airless summer, the House of Special Purpose holds them all within its walls.

Packed into the suffocating rooms, the family and their guards are forced into a frail and dangerous intimacy, tensions rising as boundaries strain and break.

Heidi Thomas’ recent work includes the original BBC television series Lilies, and screen adaptations of Madame Bovary, Ballet Shoes and I Capture the Castle. Her screenplays for the multi award-winning Cranford earned her BAFTA and Emmy nominations for Outstanding Writing, along with Best Writer Awards from the Royal Television Society, the Broadcasting Press Guild and the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain.

 

[Attaining Grace]

Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece

The execution of the Russian Imperial family prompted a quick response from George to V to rescue his Greek cousins, Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece and their family in 1922.

I didn't know that, Empress Rouge. Thank you.

 

[RoyalistRiley]

The execution of the Russian Imperial family prompted a quick response from George to V to rescue his Greek cousins, Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece and their family in 1922.

Imagine how different today's British Royal Family would be if George V didn't take any action.........

 

[iona]

hello

i have a intresting question if any one can help me the king had a great passion for his yacht .i have seen many photos of it in ekaterinburg, does any one knows what happen to it after the revelution
peter

 

[espejor]

i have a intresting question if any one can help me the king had a great passion for his yacht .i have seen many photos of it in ekaterinburg, does any one knows what happen to it after the revelution
peter

Nicholas II's yacht was scrapped in the 60's

Regards!

 

[Warren]

From Wiki:
The Russian Imperial Yacht Standart, serving Emperor Nicholas II and his family, was at her time (late 19th/early 20th century) the largest Imperial Yacht afloat. After the Russian Revolution the ship was drydocked until 1936, when she was converted to a minelayer. During WWII she played a significant role in the defence of Leningrad.

After the war, the yacht was converted into a training ship. She continued serving in that role until she was scrapped at Tallin, Estonia, in 1963.
.

 

[linmarylou]

Hi, I'm new to this forum (the russian royal family) but I've always been interested in them. Have any of you read the book "The Last Days of the Romanovs, Tragedy at Ekaterinberg" by Helen Rappaport. It documents the last two weeks of their lives and discusses a lot of things you all have been discussing in this thread. It has some pictures but is mostly really good reading. She discusses President Wilson sending 5000 U.S. troops to Archangel in the north of Russia and 8000 U.S. troops to Vladivostok in the Far East in 1918. She also mentions the letters smuggled to the family possibly by a Major Migich, a Serbian officer and member of the Tsar's General Staff, who had come to Ekaterinberg with Princess Helena of Serbia in June to inquire about the fate of her husband, who was at Alapaevgsk, as well as the Romanovs. The other three letters were clearly a deliberate fabrication thought up by the Cheka. They were dictated by a man named Petr Voikov with input from Aleksandr Beloborodov. Their writing was not good so they used Isay Rodzinsky to write the letters, who was a loyal Chekist and Ipatiev House guard. They used the Romanov's response as evidence of an escape plan and therefore they "had to" kill them. Also the White & Czech army was fastly approaching. She also notes that Thomas Preston, British Consul on July 11, managed to send out a cipher to a colleague at the diplomatic enclave at Vologda.

Also by the time the Romanovs were massacred, there had been so many reports that the czar was already dead, and with so much violence going on in and around Russia, the people really didn't care at that point.

On June 29th the decision was already made for the execution of the Romanov's but they were awaiting "official" permission from Lenin, who of course, did not want his name on anything connected with the execution of the czar and his family. As late as July 9th there was still talk of a "trial" for the czar, but it was all a smoke and mirrors to keep confusion and disinformation within the party itself. Sverdlov, Lenin's right hand man, was the one pulling the strings over the fate of the Romanovs, being in continuous direct communication with the Urals Bolsheviks.

That was when Yakov Yurovsky was appointed commandant of the Ipatiev House replacing Avdeev, who was beginning to be a little too sympathetic to the imperial family. Yurovsky's deputy was Grigory Nikulin who pulled the trigger on Prince Dolgorukov.

Despite King George's apparent withdrawal of support, attempts by foreign royals tried to obtain assylum abroad for the Romanovs dating back to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk of March 3, 1918 when King Christian of Denmark contacted the Kaiser urging his intercession. On March 17, 1918 the Kaiser responded to King Christian's request stating he could understand his worries and had sympathy for the Romanovs. Wilhelm's opinion was the best diplomatic action lay with neutral Nordic states such as Sweden. Thomas Preston, the British Consul continued to urge the Foreign Office to get the Romanovs out. The new British consul-general in Petrograd Arthur Woodhouse, argued the same. Wilhelm confided to his friend General Wallscourt Waters his readiness to help the czar, having ordered the German Chancellor von Bethmann and his ambassador to Russia, Count Mirbach to press the Bolsheviks hard on this issue. The Kaiser gave his blessing to the British offer of safe passage by sea to England and ordered his navy and army not to hinder such an evacuation. By the summer of 1918 with the British king out of the picture, Germany was the only one it appeared in a position to save the family. However the czar and czarina did not trust the Kaiser and wouldn't have gone along with that scheme anyway.

 

[linmarylou]

Whoa, a little long winded there. It's just such an interesting book, it is apparent this Helen Rappaport has really done her homework. As you are reading it, it is like you are there with them. I got the book in the mail in late afternoon and finished it the next morning. It was published in 2008 so it is already a year old but it really goes into detail about the whole situation. There is a lot of stuff in there I've not come across before, not that I claim to be an expert but......Anyway, you really need to look into this.

 

[dharshana]

If OTMA and Alexis had been sent to Crimea

1)I have a hypothetical question and that is if the children had been sent to Crimea to their grandmothers place until the czar and czarina was able to join them, who would legally bring them up?

2)Knowing Rasputins prophecy, let say the czarina (if she was left with the children) left for Crimea with the children and wait for the czar there.

 

[Velkoknezna Maria]

1) Their grandmother. She was also a godmother to them all. Godparents were supposed to look after the children in the case of their parents´ death. But Except for Alexei and maybe Anastasi they were all adults.

2) Not sure I understand the point.

 

[Marengo]

Wasn't his prophesy that the Tsarina's family would be killed by their own people if Rasputin would be murdered by a relative of the Tsar.

I believe they tried to get to the Crimea but they weren't allowed to.

 

[Russophile]

Wasn't his prophesy that the Tsarina's family would be killed by their own people if Rasputin would be murdered by a relative of the Tsar.

I believe they tried to get to the Crimea but they weren't allowed to.

Here's a link to the letter.
His Last Letter
Basically he's saying if the nobility kills him, N & A are finished.
Don't forget, dharshana, Minnie was pretty much forced, kicking and screaming--so to speak, to go to the Crimea. She wanted to stay in St. Petersburg. Lucky for her she did not.
Nobody wanted to leave Russia. It was their home, which is why so many were caught and executed. I think it was those actions of the Bolshies to galvanize the rest of the Imperial family to take flight.

 

[Velkoknezna Maria]

Minnie was in Kiev, not in Petersburg, and from there she went to Crimea. But it´s true she was not happy about it.

 

[Russophile]

Minnie was in Kiev, not in Petersburg, and from there she went to Crimea. But it´s true she was not happy about it.

Per Coryne Hall's book, Minnie wanted to return to Petersburg and gave N & A an ultimatum: Either Rasputin goes or she does. We all know how that turned out.

 

[Velkoknezna Maria]

Yes, but according to her daughter Olga she did not went back to Peresburg and Alexander Mikhailovich had a hard time getting them from Kiev to Crimea. I was merely correcting an inaccuracy there.

 

[Russophile]

Yes, but according to her daughter Olga she did not went back to Peresburg and Alexander Mikhailovich had a hard time getting them from Kiev to Crimea. I was merely correcting an inaccuracy there.

We're mincing words here because I never said she was IN St. Petersburg, she WANTED TO GO. Yes, she was in Kiev so yes you are CLARIFYING.

 

[Velkoknezna Maria]

http://homepage.eircom.net/~pbarry/rasputin/lastletter.htmShe wanted to stay in St. Petersburg.

I´m sorry. From this I assumed you meant she was in Petersburg. That´s why I wrote she wasn´t.

 

[Russophile]

I´m sorry. From this I assumed you meant she was in Petersburg. That´s why I wrote she wasn´t.

We're cool.
I finished the Crawford's book on Misha and the German's were looking to rescue Misha, Natalia and George to put him on the throne. They encouraged the Revolution but thought that if it happened there, it might happen in Germany as well.

 

[dharshana]

Plot to Rescue the Tsar and Family

Knowing Rasputins prosphecy what I meant was the day he was murdered and when the Tsarina read his letter she should have found a way to get to Crimea or simply pretended to leave the country, with the kids while the Tsar had gone back to Mogheliv. I am not sure if they had been there and the kids the kids still came down with measle whether Kerensky would have still gone to Crimea and told the Imperial Family to still go to Tobolsk for their safety.

 

[Russophile]

They were under house arrest with few guards loyal to them so escape, not sure how that would have played out.

 

[dharshana]

Plot to Rescue the Tsar and Family

They were under house arrest only when Nicholas abdicated. All in all neither one fore saw the situation. Its also sad that no one in the Royal family warned them to get out once St Petersburgh started to riot.

 

[Russophile]

But would you leave your country? Really leave? That's where Nicholas was born, where the Grand Duchesses were born. Nobody (of the nobility)wanted to leave. They didn't think that the Soviets would seriously exterminate them. Even when Michael was in Perm and under house arrest, he had freedom to walk the streets. He never thought they would execute him. He hoped to be exiled to Brasov Estate.
Nicholas and Alexandra contemplated being exiled to Livadia.
Naieve, yes, though consider the sources, Nicholas and Michael were both very good men incapable of seeing evil in others, so it was no wonder they were hood-winked.

 

[NotAPretender]

I have always thought that the only rescue that could have been accomplished would have been of Olga, Tatiana, Anastasia and Alexei, when the family was separated. The Tsar, Tsarina, and Maria were transferred from Tobolsk to Ekaterinberg ahead of them. Tobolsk was nearer to the more porous western borders between Russia and its neighbors.

But then what? Alexei would legally have been able to overturn his father's abdication on his behalf, since the Fundamental Laws hold that no dynast can be disabused of their succession rights without their consent. Could he have survived long enough to marry and father an heir? Possible - Victoria's son Leopold, did - but not probable; imprisonment, poor nutrition, lack of medical care and rigors of travel would have weakened him considerably.

Could Alexei have named one of his sisters as heir? Well, if he was Tsar, he most certainly could have.

But after all was said and done, there really was no other outcome. The Bolsheviks could not leave a single member of that family alive and expect to survive politically.

 

[snowflower]

Greek cousins Vs Russian cousins

The execution of the Russian Imperial family prompted a quick response from George to V to rescue his Greek cousins, Prince and Princess Andrew of Greece and their family in 1922.

Since I am studying Greek modern History as a hobby I must point out a few things here. First of all, Alexandra , the Grand Duchesses and the Tsarevitch were held along with the Tsar, while Princess Andrew and her children were safe, it was only Prince Andrew who was facing charges . They were not arested, they were not charged of anything, they were not under house arrest they were not even forbidden to leave the country ,they were not moved, they stayed in their palace in Corfu . So I could say that it was pretty easy for Alice to leave Greece along with her children if she felt she was threatened . I don't see them need any kind of "rescue" not at least in the sense Empress Alexandra and her children needed.

Secondly king George V was able to help Andrew because it was a different situation than that of the Tsar. the Tsar was considered de facto guilty for every act he commited on his whole reign, a potential threat ot the new regime and was relocated so he could not escape . Prince Andrew on the other hand was put under house arrest in Athens ,the country's capital and was facing specific charges. He was charged of high treason on the grounds that when he was a major general of the Greek Army in Asia Minor, he purposely disobeyed his commander in chief and his disodedience contributed in the greek Army's defeat so he was to bet put in trial. Nicholas was said something like " you are responsible for numberless crimes against the soviet people and we are executing you and your family without a trial because we want no one to survive" ,Andrew was said something like " you are charged with high treason and you will face a court".

It is important to know that Andrew was OFFICIALLY charged while Nicholas wasn't, because we can see that in Andrew 's case George V knew that his cousin was facing the highest possible penalty (execution) while he had at least the alibi of uncertainty in Nicholas case. And Andrew wasn't the only one charged with high treason , other six ex - commanders and politicians also faced the same charges in a higly published trial . (in Greece this trial is Known as the Trial of the Six and it is an important historical event) This means that Ceorge V had a lot of time to act until the trial was finished. Moreover, the British diplomacy was able to greatly pressure the greek government to spare Andrew 's life while they didn't have that ability in Nicholas' case. I mean, Greece was crying at the time for foreign financial support , over 1,5 million of refugees had just arrived from Asia they couldn't turn UK against them. Lenin on the other hand didn't need this knd of immediate support from UK.if the Bolsheviks wanted to kill the Imperial Family they could probably get away with it. If Greeks executed P Andrew they couldn't.

In the end it was decided that P ANdrew was to be put to trial alone and the other six together. The other six were all found guilty and were sentenced to death. Prince Andrew was found umanismously innocent due inexperiency in military matters and was banned for life from Greece. He then left he country with his family.

to conclude , George V was able to help his Greek cousins because he could intervene without risking ANYTHING.Unfortunately fo his Russian cousins , he didn't have the same luxury.