Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and other claimants to the Throne 2: Oct '06-Jun '08

[Katya]

I don't agree with Maria's claim one bit, but after arguing against her for many years and getting nowhere, I think we should just stop beating the dead dog.

 

[branchg]

I don't think that the actual Russian governoment which recognizes her as a pretendent for the Russian throne is NOT an indice to the person who's the most rightful,as everybody knows,the governoment encourages only those who would serve him,and not those who would change the face of power.

The Russian Government is sovereign and if they recognize her as heir, there is really no argument at this point on her position as successor to the imperial throne.

 

[Charlottesville]

The Russian Government is sovereign and if they recognize her as heir, there is really no argument at this point on her position as successor to the imperial throne.

In your opinion. Just because a claim is recognized as valid by the Russian government does not mean it is rightful.

 

[lord_rankin]

Charlottesville, If you so vehemently deny Maria's claim then whom in your opinon should accede to the throne or be the pretender?

 

[Charlottesville]

Charlottesville, If you so vehemently deny Maria's claim then whom in your opinon should accede to the throne or be the pretender?

I don't 'vehemently' deny her claim. I don't really care. I'm just stating the facts of the rules of succession. And a desendant of Cyril who betrayed Nicholas and supported the Revolution with a red badge should never be heir to the nonexistant throne.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Surely by that logic, there is a whole generation of Germans who shouldn't be allowed to go out at all because they fought in the German Army between 1939-1945?

 

[Warren]

... a desendant of Cyril who betrayed Nicholas and supported the Revolution with a red badge should never be heir to the nonexistant throne.

Once again emotion and prejudice are being substituted for any semblance of reality, and somehow a revolutionary "red badge of betrayal" has been pinned to the ample breast of Maria Vladimirovna (born 1953).

If one is in any doubt as to Maria's pre-eminence or status among the Romanov dynasts, as recognised by at least the Russsian and Danish governments (and therefore Queen Margrethe), there is no need to look further than the pics of the Reburial service from last month. Maria is in the front row alongside the Danish and British royal representatives. By any rational viewpoint, red badges notwithstanding, this is the position of honour.

 

[Charlottesville]

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

Surely by that logic, there is a whole generation of Germans who shouldn't be allowed to go out at all because they fought in the German Army between 1939-1945?

I'm not a fan of the Nazis, so I agree with that.

 

[Warren]

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

Based on the most recent 'joint' official public appearance, Nicholas Romanov was at the back, while Maria Vladimirovna was in the front row.
Simplistic maybe, but pecking order is the visible sign of hierarchy and status within Royal circles. I don't think "validity" can be made any clearer than that, whatever one's prejudices.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Great. But what makes her any more valid than say, Nicholas Romanov?

I'm not a fan of the Nazis, so I agree with that.

If you read the latest British research on the Germans under the reign of the Nazis you'll find that most of them stopped being "fans" around 1935. But during the two years from 1933 to 1935 the Nazis had in fact changed the whole structure of the army and police into a close circuit of control and suppression of the Germans, so there was no chance anymore to react on these changed feelings. Most people were afraid of what would happen to them if they acted against the Nazis and those few who did suffered for it.

Today, having grown up in a democracy, we would probably act on our opinions against the state, even if we were afraid (at least I hope so) but then people had grown up in authoritarian times and had no or not much access to independent media reports - it was difficult for them to figure out what really happened but they were of course informed of what happened to those who didn't obey.

One should always be aware that people are the same wherever they are and try to figure out what makes them react differently to others in different circumstances. IMHO.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Maybe I should explain my comment which seems to have been misunderstood. Charlottesville said that Maria should never be allowed to inherit because her ancestors were communist sympathisers. Well, by that logic, many young Germans would have to become hermits because of things their ancestors were associated with under the Nazi regime. We can't be held to account for the things our ancestors did. Maria's claim may have it's loopholes BUT she does actually work for Russia.

Nicholas Romanov spends his time dining out on the title he's given himself, writing books and pretending that he represents the Imperial Family. Maria on the other hand, visits Russia regularly, does alot for Russian charities, for the Russian Orthodox Church and tries to help whenever she can and because she does that, the Russian Government takes her more seriously than Nicholas Romanov.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Maybe I should explain my comment which seems to have been misunderstood. Charlottesville said that Maria should never be allowed to inherit because her ancestors were communist sympathisers. Well, by that logic, many young Germans would have to become hermits because of things their ancestors were associated with under the Nazi regime. We can't be held to account for the things our ancestors did. Maria's claim may have it's loopholes BUT she does actually work for Russia.

THat's how I understood your message, but as Charlottesville came up with the idea that she thought your satirical answer was serious and she supported the idea, I thought it was time for a little history lesson...

As for Maria's claim: AFAIK the only potential problem are the Pauline laws and the fact that Russia annexed Georgia and did not stay true to their former contract with Georgia on stripping the Georgian Royal family of their rank and force them into the ranks of Russian nobility.

Well, IMHO the Head of the family decides what is right and what is wrong and in this case the current Head of the Romanows decided that Maria's mother was Royal. It was (at least in my reading) some sort of amendment to the Pauline laws and this makes her perfectly legitimate with the direct claim. Which obviously has been openly acknowledged by the Danish Royal House and the Russian government. Is there more to say?

Nicholas Romanov spends his time dining out on the title he's given himself, writing books and pretending that he represents the Imperial Family. Maria on the other hand, visits Russia regularly, does alot for Russian charities, for the Russian Orthodox Church and tries to help whenever she can and because she does that, the Russian Government takes her more seriously than Nicholas Romanov.

Exactly. Action speaks louder than words...

 

[fanletizia]

Moscow court: refusal to rehabilitate Russian tsar illegal

http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=11621639

 

[Toledo]

This one has the same title but the text was worded differently and it also contains a nice picture of Nicholas II and family:
Court rules prosecutors' refusal to exonerate last czar illegal
...Grand Duchess Maria Romanov, who heads the Russian Imperial House in exile, claims the killing was a state-sponsored execution rather than murder, and wants a court of justice to clear the monarch of all political charges allegedly leveled against him by the Bolsheviks...

And from today's news:
Russian court ruling paves way for rehabilitation of murdered Tsar
By Andrew Osborn in Moscow Published: 16 November 2006

 

[branchg]

As for Maria's claim: AFAIK the only potential problem are the Pauline laws and the fact that Russia annexed Georgia and did not stay true to their former contract with Georgia on stripping the Georgian Royal family of their rank and force them into the ranks of Russian nobility.

Well, IMHO the Head of the family decides what is right and what is wrong and in this case the current Head of the Romanows decided that Maria's mother was Royal. It was (at least in my reading) some sort of amendment to the Pauline laws and this makes her perfectly legitimate with the direct claim. Which obviously has been openly acknowledged by the Danish Royal House and the Russian government. Is there more to say?

And the fact remains that her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, who everyone agrees was the rightful Head of the Imperial House and de-jure Tsar, ruled the Bagrations were entitled to be Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia prior to his marriage to Leonida.

Infante Ferdinand had asked for Vladimir's opinion as to the status of the family prior to a Bagration marrying into the Spanish Royal House. Vladimir consulted his uncle and legal experts and ruled the Georgian question was settled by treaty and ignored by his ancestors.

 

[Benjamin]

Here is a little update of what is happening with Maria's son (from an interview he gave last month):

Until recently Georgiy worked as an assistant to the Vice President of the European Commission, Sra. Loyola de Palacio, in Brussels and Luxembourg.
Now he is "going to study work of private enterprise."
He has visited Russia frequently in the past two years, namely St. Petersburg and Moscow. Some of these times were when he was working for the Commision. Two months ago, he visited to congratulate Patriarch Alexei II on his 45th anniversary in that position. He also met the first vice-presidents of the Duma while there.
Georgiy loves Mozart, and also listens to AC DC and Metallica.
He is still single, he says. He discusses the marriage requirements, but the translation I received doesn't make his answer very clear. However, he states that should the Pauline Laws that effect marriage equality be cancelled then the number of potential partners would extend. He says that his "future wife should love Russia, understand me and always be near to me in my service to the Native land."

Here is a link to the interview: http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dynastynews/news/2006/569.html
Attached is the rough English translation

 

[Jo of Palatine]

And the fact remains that her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, who everyone agrees was the rightful Head of the Imperial House and de-jure Tsar, ruled the Bagrations were entitled to be Royal Highnesses and Prince/Princess of Georgia prior to his marriage to Leonida.

Infante Ferdinand had asked for Vladimir's opinion as to the status of the family prior to a Bagration marrying into the Spanish Royal House. Vladimir consulted his uncle and legal experts and ruled the Georgian question was settled by treaty and ignored by his ancestors.

Now that should settle the question once and for all descendents of the Romanov-family. Didn't the French king Louis XV. marry the daughter of the exiled king of Poland Stanislaw Leszczynski, even though Poland was annexed partly by Russia and partly by Saxony at that time? Okay, some people considered the marriage a mesalliance (as some consider the Romanov-marriage to the Bagration-princess of Georgia to be) but still the firstborn son from that marriage became the Dauphin and queen Maria Leszczynska's grandson became king as Louis XVI. Thus I guess the marriage was valid in the dynastical sense.

 

[Benjamin]

Picture of GDss Leonida Georgievna, who is now 92 (10/6/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/uploads/Image/photo-gallery/20061006/obr_2.jpg
Picture Gallery of GDss Maria Vladimirovna's visit to Russia for the reburial of Maria Feodorovna (9/25-9/29/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dynastynews/photo-gallery/20060930.html
Picture Gallery of GD Georgiy Mikhailovich's visit to Russia (9/2-9/4/06): http://www.imperialhouse.ru/rus/dynastynews/photo-gallery/20060904.html

 

[Benjamin]

Link to a review of GD Leonida's memoirs: http://www.network54.com/Forum/125757/message/994008532/Memoirs+by+GD+Leonida

 

[Benjamin]

Last Russian tsar's descendant appeals in exoneration case
12/8/06
An appeal has been filed with the Moscow City Court against a district court's refusal to exonerate Russia's last emperor Nicholas II and his family, the plaintiff's lawyer said Tuesday...
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061205/56502555.html

 

[DrosteSchattenburg]

In reality, the rights passed after Vladimir's death under the strictest interpretation of the Pauline Laws through his sister, Grand Duchess Kira, who married Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia. Her grandson, HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg, is arguably the rightful heir.

If I got it right, the head of the imperial Russian family has to be an offspring of an equally and orthodox marriage, and the female Line is only considered if no male member of the family fulfils this qualities. Obviously no male living member of the Family satisfies the criteria of the strict Pauline laws.
Also a passing of the claim to the throne via Kira Grand Duchess of Russia to the Hohenzollern Family can be excluded, because this family is not orthodox.
To me it seems only one branch fulfils the Pauline Laws:
Helen of Russia (1882-1957), cousin of Nicolas II., was married to Nicholas of Greece and Denmark (equal in rank and orthodox).
They had three Daughters from whom one (I would think) married equal in rank and orthodox again: Olga of Greece and Denmark (1903-1997) married to Prince Paul of Yugoslavia (1893-1976). This couple had tree children: Alexander of Yugoslavia (1926- ), Nicholas of Yugoslavia (1928-54) and Elisabeth of Yugoslavia (1936- )
Quiet far fetched, but I wonder if not Alexander of Yugoslavia due to Pauline Law has got the best claim on the Russian throne.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

If I got it right, the head of the imperial Russian family has to be an offspring of an equally and orthodox marriage, and the female Line is only considered if no male member of the family fulfils this qualities. Obviously no male living member of the Family satisfies the criteria of the strict Pauline laws.
Also a passing of the claim to the throne via Kira Grand Duchess of Russia to the Hohenzollern Family can be excluded, because this family is not orthodox.

In some articles about the Pauline laws it says that the orthodox-rule is just for male dynasts marrying non-orthodox women.

The development of the Imperial House Statues from Paul I. to Nikolaus II. shows that each tsar changed some article or the other, adding annexes etc. So while one tsar may have decided against the equality of the Bagration of Georgia out of political reasons (Russia had annexed the kingdom of Georgia and negated the contract stating that the Bagration are Royality), the next one could well come to the reverse judgment on honouring that contract.

It's all up to the Head of the House IMHO - and the one to decide at the time of the marriage of Grand Duchess Maria's parents was her father, the bridegroom himself. Never forget that Tsar Peter the Great married a scullery maid (Catherine I.) and allowed her to become a empress regnant after his death. Empress Elisabeth adopted her nephew Peter of Holstein-Gottorp, even though his father had not been orthodox. And why are all the German dukes and princes of the minor branches of former Royal houses considered to be "equal" when the only difference between them and the Bagration is that the tsar could not annex their lands and not reduce them to just "nobility" -when Germany formed the empire of 1871 the German emperor (formerly king of Prussia) accepted the equality of the other rulers, though in fact he was the one to deal with external affairs from that moment onwards. Could have gone the other way round: with the tsar of Russia accepting the equality of the Bagration and the German emperor refusing it for his new subjects. The one is as absurd as the other! Because then Leonida would have been equal but the empress of Nicolaus II, Alexandra Fjodorowna of Hesse, wouldn't have been....

I wonder what the British Royal family thinks about all this? After all, Grand Duchess Maria is the great-great-granddaughter of queen Victoria, a granddaughter of a British princess, thus they should have an offcial opinion about it. Does the UK accept the claim of Grand Duchess Maria? She after all had married equally.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I don't think the British Royal Family have ever spoken about it. I think I saw a picture of Prince Michael with Grand Duchess Maria at the reburial and I did see a very small pic where she appeared to be kissing Princess Michael so I'd assume they don't ignore her.

 

[branchg]

If I got it right, the head of the imperial Russian family has to be an offspring of an equally and orthodox marriage, and the female Line is only considered if no male member of the family fulfils this qualities. Obviously no male living member of the Family satisfies the criteria of the strict Pauline laws.

The senior line is through Maria and she fulfills the criteria of the Pauline Law, with the only controversy being the status of the Bagrations. Since Grand Duke Vladimir ruled they were royalty as Head of House, it's a moot point.

 

[Marengo]

didn't emperor Nicholas II already aprove of the marriage of one of his cousins (of the Constantine branch) to a Bragation (and thus implicitely recognising them as equals)?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

didn't emperor Nicholas II already aprove of the marriage of one of his cousins (of the Constantine branch) to a Bragation (and thus implicitely recognising them as equals)?

No, he didn't. While he allowed the Grand Duchess to marry a Bagration, the marriage was considered morganatic with her kids having no claim to the succession. But it was still different from all other morganatic marriage, because this one was actually allowed by the emperor and he attended the wedding. Thus there are genealogists who explain Nicholas' reaction as due to the fact that Georgia was still upset about the annexation and Nicholas could not in this political situation accept a Bagration prince as equal. That would have been seen as encouragement for the opposition in Georgia. But he allowed the new princess Bagration and her husband to live at his court, which made it into the first morganatic marriage within the Romanow family where the punishment of exile for contracting a morganatic marriage (as stated by the Pauline laws) did not take effect. Thus it is thought that in fact Nicholas accepted the prince Bagration as Royality but couldn't do so openly. While his successor as Head of the house did it openly after the Revolution when it came to the Spanish marriage and the Bourbons wanted to have his opinion on it before agreeing to the marriage. That was before the Grand Duke himself married a princess Bagration but one can safely assume that he really meant it and could now, as an emperor in exile, act on it while his predecessor couldn't.

BTW - in 1946 a Wittelsbach-princess of Bavaria (daughter of a Spanish infanta) married as well a Bagration prince - thus one could safely assume that the Royal Wittelsbachs, the Royal Windsors, the Royal Bourbons and the Royal Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksborg have no problem with the Bagration being of Royal blood. IIRC there were other Bagration around at the court of Saxony and that of the Austrian emperor in Vienna who were treated as equals of the German Duodez-princes (which were considered to be equal in Russia by the Romanows). Goethe wrote about it in his diaries....

 

[branchg]

Princess Tatiana renounced her right to the imperial throne, but this was standard practice for Romanov females marrying a member of another royal house. The Tsar did not rule officially one way or another as to whether he considered the marriage morganatic, but he did assure Grand Duke Constantine privately that he did not.

There was no problem with relatively junior princes and princesses of the blood imperial marrying noblility and other princely families of good standing. The issue was Nicholas II refused to approve Grand Dukes marrying outside the Pauline Law. On that point, he was adamant.

 

[branchg]

didn't emperor Nicholas II already aprove of the marriage of one of his cousins (of the Constantine branch) to a Bragation (and thus implicitely recognising them as equals)?

It was not considered equal, but a marriage of good standing accepted by the Tsar for a princess of the blood imperial. If she had been male and a senior dynast, it would have been another story.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

The issue was Nicholas II refused to approve Grand Dukes marrying outside the Pauline Law. On that point, he was adamant.

But that surely was a very political issue - the Romanows are not that old a family and the scandals surrounding them were impressive - from Peter the Great marrying a kitchen maid to Catherine the Great killing off her husband and then there's the paternity question of tsar Paul... The Romanows reigned more through the sheer force of their power and their political cunning when it came to dealings with their bojars than through legitimist issues like eg the Hanovers reigned in the UK. During their reign of Russia the Romanows saw the ancient kingdom of France go down the drain and they saw the nationalist movement change the face of Germany but they saw as well how secure their direct neighbors, the Habsburgs, had formed their empire on marrying. So surely for the tsars after Paul Royal marriages were not something that had to do with prestige or keeping their blood clean, but of political alliances. Thus they married their Grand Duchesses in as many Royal houses as they could find but were careful not to "socialise" too much with their own nobility (which had weakened the power of the monarch eg in the UK).

The Imperial House Statue aka the Pauline laws were made as much as other constitutional ukases to secure the reign of the Romanows. There simply was no other way for the Romanows during the times when they actually ruled. They couldn't have discussions about the status of their male dynasts, they couldn't have relatives from a Russian mother's side taking part in their political game.

But after the revolution this changed. Then a marriage to a princess Bagration was no political problem anymore and the Head of the House could decide to declare her as equal. I mean, only some years ago Dr. Otto Habsburg, current Head of the family of Habsburg-Lothringen, declared a commoner as "ebenbürtig" (equal) on her marriage into the family. The same happened in the Wittelsbach-family, when princess Kathrin Beatrix (formerly Miss Wiegand) was declared equal after close to 20 years of marriage, because the Wittelsbach have needed her firstborn son with prince Luitpold as their future Head of the family and so the current Head granted the young prince the right to succession on declaring the marriage of his parents as in accord with the House law.

House laws need to be changed sometimes if they should still fulfill their raison d'etre, they were there to guarantee the survival and the power of a noble family and when times are changing, they have to be adjusted. See the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg-case, where the family goes against the stipulations of the will of a former Head of the House, who decreed that only noble and Aryan women are eligible for marriage. While queen Margarete of Denmark as aunt of prince Gustav could easily ennoble his intended, she can't make the girl into an "Aryan" - thus the house laws need to be changed in order to be according to current laws. The time of Racial laws in Germany is over for such a long time, thank God!

So what's good for the Habsburg or the Wittelsbach (or the Windsors with a future queen Camilla) should be good for the present day Romanows as well, IMHO.

 

[Black Cat]

That is possible to bring infinite amount of examples about enthronement. But practice shows, that in case of restoration monks in Russia, only the God indicate Tsar and only people will confirm that. Naive to believe, that the Russians will serve voluntary to overseas king or prince brought up far away from Russia, which one never understand expectations and hopes of people and hardly will be able to kept power (the last much more important). It will be very funny, if somebody will try to win the right to a throne through court.