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  #61  
Old 09-15-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shartjen4830 View Post
I actually think it would be interesting to see Nicholas's daughter, Olga as Empress Autocrat of all Russia
Interesting, probably not feasible. Alexandra, if you remember, was always reminding Nicky to be "strong for Baby (Alexis)" so he could inherit. She was fixated on Baby inheriting and Olga ascending would have upset that apple cart. Alix was very strong willed (read: STUBBORN as an ox), don't think Olga could have come up against that and won.
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  #62  
Old 09-15-2010, 03:06 PM
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Besides the inequity the girls faced, they had the weakest link in the chain as the heir. What could be done about, I don't know. Russo is right, Alexandra would have protected Alexis' right, even against her own daughters.
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  #63  
Old 09-15-2010, 05:21 PM
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But to consider Olga as future Empress, don't we have to accept that Alexei would have died first?
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  #64  
Old 09-15-2010, 05:37 PM
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After Michael's return from exile, and, this was long before Nicholas II had abdicated, the two had signed papers which made Michael in line of the throne after Alexei. But first, Michael had to agreed Michael's children, by his wife, would never be heirs to the throne...

This means, Nicholas II had made the decision that his daughters would not be in line of the Russian throne.

Once the papers were signed, I assume, unless something happen to Michael, that this decision of Nicholas II's was final.

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  #65  
Old 09-15-2010, 10:29 PM
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So, then, it would Alexei or nobody! But I'm thinking, if Nicholas had the power to alter the order of succession, couldn't he also alter the law that only males inherited the throne? I mean, wasn't this within his powers as Sovereign? He could point to Catherine the Great as an example of a great ruler (even though she was not a Romanov by birth)
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  #66  
Old 09-16-2010, 09:23 AM
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It would be worth mentioning that Catherine II was the reason Paul I introduced a very strict male primogeniture. Technically speaking, Catherine II usurped the throne that rightfully belonged to her son.
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  #67  
Old 09-16-2010, 03:31 PM
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Bear, when did they sign these papers?? I do remember something like this though my brain is a bit fuzzy.
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  #68  
Old 09-16-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Bear, when did they sign these papers?? I do remember something like this though my brain is a bit fuzzy.
Why would Nicholas and Michael need to sign any papers? Since the daughters could not inherit the throne, if Alexei died without issue, then Michael would be the next in line, right? Or are you and AGR Bear saying that any sons of the daughters could be next in line to inherit after Alexei?
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  #69  
Old 09-16-2010, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
Why would Nicholas and Michael need to sign any papers? Since the daughters could not inherit the throne, if Alexei died without issue, then Michael would be the next in line, right? Or are you and AGR Bear saying that any sons of the daughters could be next in line to inherit after Alexei?
I suppose to make it legal--legal for heirs. I remember something in the Crawford book where Michael was saying to Natasha that he wasn't the heir any more and was free to marry. I can't remember the paper signing very well, though I know it's there. I remember it.


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  #70  
Old 09-16-2010, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
I suppose to make it legal--legal for heirs. I remember something in the Crawford book where Michael was saying to Natasha that he wasn't the heir any more and was free to marry. I can't remember the paper signing very well, though I know it's there. I remember it.


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Russo dear,

You are not getting old, just better like wine.

I remember reading that quote by Michael -- didn't he say it after the birth of Alexei? I think Michael was very relieved there was finally a male heir and he was free of worry about being the next in line and having to conform to proper behavior.
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  #71  
Old 09-17-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
Russo dear,

You are not getting old, just better like wine.

I remember reading that quote by Michael -- didn't he say it after the birth of Alexei? I think Michael was very relieved there was finally a male heir and he was free of worry about being the next in line and having to conform to proper behavior.
See, I remember that as well. And papers he signed it's just the papers I can't remember where I was reading that.

Thanks dear!
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  #72  
Old 09-17-2010, 03:54 PM
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When Nicholas received word that his brother Michael had secretly married without his permission, he was extremely upset.

Rosemary and Donald Crawford wrote in their book MICHAEL AND NATASHA p. 135-136 that Nicholas II "...deeming it expedient to estblish a guardianship over the person, estate and affairs of the Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich, we have considered it advisable to take upon ourselves the chief control of the guardianship and to entrust to the Central Administration of the Imperial Domains the direct contol of estate, personal and real and also funds possessed by Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich" 15 Dec 1913.

Two weeks later on the 30th of Dec , a Nicholas II's manifesto removed Michael from the Regency.

Michael was in exile in Europe and could not return to Russia until Nicholas II summoned him back.

At the start of the war, 1 Aug 1914, Michael cabled Nicholas and asked permission for he and Natasha to return home. Permission was granted.

>>Michael went to the front in command of a Cossack brigade. But neither Nicholas nor Alexander ever received or uttered a word to the bold and beautiful Nathalie Cheremetevskaya.<< p. 247 Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra.

I am still looking for the source about Michael regaining the position of Regent....

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  #73  
Old 09-17-2010, 04:07 PM
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Nicholas Ii wrote to Michael by telegram at 2.56 after he had abdicated:

"Imperial Majesty, Petrograd", and, it read:

>>To His Majesty the Emperor Michael: Recent events have forced me to decide irrevocably to take extreme step. Forgive me if it grieves you and also for no warning-- there was no time. Shall always remain a faithful and devoted brother. Now returning to HQ where hope to come back shortly to Tsarskoe Selo. Fervently pray God to help you and our country. Your Nicky."<<

p. 308 MICHAEL AND NATASHA by Rosemary and Conald Crawford.

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  #74  
Old 09-17-2010, 06:49 PM
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I just finished Nabokov's "Speak memory" his father drafted the papers for Michael's abdication.
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  #75  
Old 09-17-2010, 11:10 PM
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I don't think there were any papers drafted by Nicholas and Michael explicitly removing the daughters from succession; instead, Nicholas abdicated and removed Alexei from the line of succession, then Michael abdicated and ended the Romanov dynasty. OTMA could not inherit the throne, so there was no need to draft any documents removing them from the line of succession.
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  #76  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:36 PM
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I just finished Nabokov's "Speak memory" his father drafted the papers for Michael's abdication.
Are you talking about his letter to the Duma or something other than the letter. A real abdication separate from the letter?

Did Michael sign the abdication?

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  #77  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
I don't think there were any papers drafted by Nicholas and Michael explicitly removing the daughters from succession; instead, Nicholas abdicated and removed Alexei from the line of succession, then Michael abdicated and ended the Romanov dynasty. OTMA could not inherit the throne, so there was no need to draft any documents removing them from the line of succession.
I've been lead to understand this is correct. However, because Michael had been in exile, I believe Michael was asked to sign papers agreeing that he'd be Regent for Alexei. Added to this, he signed papers which agreed that his, Michael's children by his wife, would not inherit the throne.

Does anyone know of the actual document in any source so this can be proven?

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  #78  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:58 PM
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Here is the link related to Grand Duke Mikhail Alexadrovich's abdication
. . - .ru
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  #79  
Old 09-20-2010, 01:34 PM
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Al bina,

Do you know where one can find a translation of the document found in the link you posted?

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  #80  
Old 09-20-2010, 01:46 PM
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I believe that GoogleTranslate and BabelFish can be of help. The site has not got any full documents posted. There are excerpts from personal diaries/official documents and recollections of the people, who participated in the event (e.g., Alexander Kerensky, Pavel Milyukov, V.D. Nabokov) and reactions of various people to the news.
As far as understood, Grand Duke Mikhail was coerced by Prince Lvov among other people to abdicate because of the threat to massacre all the Romanovs and people loyal to them.
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