Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Warren]

Originally Posted by kbk

Well, if it's true, then how it is possible that the Greek princes and princesses use Danish diplomatic passports in which they are officially styled as Princes and Princess of Greece and Denmark?

Yes, the Danish authorities allow members of the Royal House of Greece to use their royal titles in official documents. Why would they not?
They have Danish diplomatic passports because Queen Margrethe wished it so and the government did not disagree.

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA

The passport of the wife of Prince Michael is Monaco, I read an interview of her in a Spanish magazine, for an exhibition she was presenting in Spain and she said be the sculptor of Monaco .

I think you are mixing Marina Karella the wife of Prince Michel de Grece, who is a peintre and, and Mrs Sofia Vari the wife of Fernando Botero, who is sculptor, and lives in Monaco.

I'm quite persuated that Marina Karella has still the greek nationally, because in Greece you are not allowed to deny your nationality.
Of course she might use another passeport that Greek, but she remains a Greek citizen.

[roimat]

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

Tatiana is Princess Nikolaos of Greece and Denmark, just like all her in-laws and her husband is.

My dear, you say they are! I explained that the succession Law of Denmark has changed.

[Lumutqueen]

Succesion to the Danish Throne has nothing to do with how they are styled.

[roimat]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

I think you are mixing Marina Karella the wife of Prince Michel de Grece, who is a peintre and, and Mrs Sofia Vari the wife of Fernando Botero, who is sculptor, and lives in Monaco.

I'm quite persuated that Marina Karella has still the greek nationally, because in Greece you are not allowed to deny your nationality.
Of course she might use another passeport that Greek, but she remains a Greek citizen.

Just in time. Yesterday i checked it, and of course Marina Karella has the Greek nationality, why she shouldn't? Even her husband and daughter Olga are Greek citizens, under the surname De Grece, in Greek letters ;-)

Originally Posted by Lumutqueen

Succesion to the Danish Throne has nothing to do with how they are styled.

Ok, i'm a royal journalist but probably you know more than i know...Of course the Succession low has to do with it! Can i be styled Prince of Denmark?Not even in the Greek Royal Family's webpage are they styled that way....but ok...you know better....

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by roimat

Just in time. Yesterday i checked it, and of course Marina Karella has the Greek nationality, why she shouldn't? Even her husband and daughter Olga are Greek citizens, under the surname De Grece, in Greek letters ;-)

Why do they are allowed to use "de Grece" as a surname while King Konstantinos and his family aren't?

[roimat]

They use it in Greek Letters. "Ντε Γκρες". It's not translated in Greece, it is pronounced as you read it. And only Prince Michel and his daughter Olga. And of course, without the title infront of the names. Marina Karella is as Marina Karella.
I can only suppose that King Constantine has done something similar, but they haven't make it clear yet.

And also i believe that Michel De Grece is a hole different situation form the members of the rest Royal Family. He was the only member to renounce his rights to the Throne, and lived as a private citizen. He didn't even left Greece with the RF in 1967, but stayed there, and only after the 1974 referendum made Paris his permanent home. And he was the only who could enter and exit Greece when ever he wanted all these 35 years.

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by roimat

And also i believe that Michel De Grece is a hole different situation form the members of the rest Royal Family. He was the only member to renounce his rights to the Throne, and lived as a private citizen. He didn't even left Greece with the RF in 1967, but stayed there, and only after the 1974 referendum made Paris his permanent home. And he was the only who could enter and exit Greece when ever he wanted all these 35 years.

But in this case, he should be using his name as before??? What was written in his passeport in 1960? and 1965? Nobody obliged him to leave, so he should have kept his passeport as before.

[roimat]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

But in this case, he should be using his name as before??? What was written in his passeport in 1960? and 1965? Nobody obliged him to leave, so he should have kept his passeport as before.

I suppose that he already had a French passport, as he had lived for many years in France. I also suppose that if he had a Greek passport that times, his passport would write "Prince Michael of Greece", in Greek of course. But the passports of the members of the Greek Royal Family have been sized by the Sosialist Government of 1994. I found that he is listed at the voters catalogues as the way i told you before...

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by roimat

They use it in Greek Letters. "Ντε Γκρες". It's not translated in Greece, it is pronounced as you read it. And only Prince Michel and his daughter Olga. And of course, without the title infront of the names. Marina Karella is as Marina Karella.
I can only suppose that King Constantine has done something similar, but they haven't make it clear yet.

So, as far as I understand, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless in Greek language, it isn't a Greek word and neither the name of a place, so they can use it as a surname; while the King wants to use as a surname the Greek words meaning "of Greece" (that actually is the English version of the French "de Grece").

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by roimat

I suppose that he already had a French passport, as he had lived for many years in France. I also suppose that if he had a Greek passport that times, his passport would write "Prince Michael of Greece", in Greek of course. But the passports of the members of the Greek Royal Family have been sized by the Sosialist Government of 1994. I found that he is listed at the voters catalogues as the way i told you before...

Oh very interesting! Thanks

As regards the French nationality. He is the son of the Princesse d' Orleans, sister of the late Comte de Paris. As far as I know titles are abolished in Fremch law. I'm wondering what is his full name in the French Passeport.

[kbk]

Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).
Although the Greek, Norwegian, and British Royal Families are genealogically part of the Danish Royal family, they are not descended from King Christian X and do not have any rights to the Danish throne. Norwegian Royals dropped all references to Denmark in their titles but Greek Royals continue to use the title "Prince(ss) of Greece and Denmark."
from wiki
And..Det græske kongehus nedstammer fra den danske Prins Georg, der blev græsk konge. På grund af de urolige politiske forhold i landet fik familien lov til fremover at beholde deres danske kongelige titler "til at falde tilbage på". Familien indgår således principielt i den danske kongefamilie, men ikke i den danske tronfølge efter den nugældende tronfølgelov. Dronning Anne-Marie har således frasagt sig sin danske arveret og prinsessetitel (til Danmark), om end hendes børn gennem faderen er prinser/prinsesser af Danmark, hvilket i princippet også gælder parret selv.
Can anyone translate this to us? :>

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Originally Posted by Warren

Yes, the Danish authorities allow members of the Royal House of Greece to use their royal titles in official documents. Why would they not?
They have Danish diplomatic passports because Queen Margrethe wished it so and the government did not disagree.

What is a fact is that King Constantine, Queen Sofia, Princess Yriny and Prince Michael were all born before the Succession Act, thus they were born princes of Denmark and with succession rights. From 1953 onward, they have no more succession rights but they retain the af Danmark style.
However, having been born after 1953, they children of all the above are not princes either af or til Danmark. I would welcome feedback on the matter.

[roimat]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Oh very interesting! Thanks

As regards the French nationality. He is the son of the Princesse d' Orleans, sister of the late Comte de Paris. As far as I know titles are abolished in Fremch law. I'm wondering what is his full name in the French Passeport.

I suppose the same as in the Greek one: Michel De Greece. Just that, without the "Prince" in front.

Originally Posted by MAfan

So, as far as I understand, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless in Greek language, it isn't a Greek word and neither the name of a place, so they can use it as a surname; while the King wants to use as a surname the Greek words meaning "of Greece" (that actually is the English version of the French "de Grece").

You're right, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless, but there are many Greek surnames who become from such non greek names. For example, a member of the Parliament is called Eliza Vozenberg. But she is Greek 100%. Also the former New Democracy party leader Miltiadis Evert or even better the well known politician Evangellos Averof.
You can use any name as a surname, but it wouldn't hear so goof the name "Οφ Γκρις" (of Greece)...that's probably why they are using the Degrecia more often...

Originally Posted by kbk

Well, if it's true, then how it is possible that the Greek princes and princesses use Danish diplomatic passports in which they are officially styled as Princes and Princess of Greece and Denmark? So?
I think that Danish princely titles are not limited to children and grandchildren of a sovereign, like it is in the UK for example, but it is legally inherited in male-line (if the marriage is dynastic, approved by the Sovereign), and dynastic members of the Royal House are Princes and Princesses of Denmark (the Greek Royal House is a branch of the Danish Royal House, so...). For example, Prince Georg Valdemar Carl Axel of Denmark and Iceland, who died in 1986, was a great-grandson of Christian IX.

They are not styled as princes of Denmark, get over it!

What is a fact is that King Constantine, Queen Sofia, Princess Yriny and Prince Michael were all born before the Succession Act, thus they were born princes of Denmark and with succession rights. From 1953 onward, they have no more succession rights but they retain the af Danmark style.
However, having been born after 1953, they children of all the above are not princes either af or til Denmark.

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by roimat

You're right, "Ντε Γκρες" is meaningless, but there are many Greek surnames who become from such non greek names. For example, a member of the Parliament is called Eliza Vozenberg. But she is Greek 100%. Also the former New Democracy party leader Miltiadis Evert or even better the well known politician Evangellos Averof.
You can use any name as a surname, but it wouldn't hear so goof the name "Οφ Γκρις" (of Greece)...that's probably why they are using the Degrecia more often...

This is not the correct thread, but just to clarify Averoff is a greek name. The correct name was Averos, 100% Greek, but since at this period (250 years before) the greek people while emigrating in Russian territory, they changed their name Averos to Averoff with a russian sounding name. It was the use at this time.
Now to be back to our subject, of course you have foreign names to people 100% Greek, but "De Grece" is a special case, becausse even meaningless in greek, everybody knows the translation! So it is not common to use it, and this was the "wonderfull" trik chosen by the King!

[BELTRANEJA]

I have a magazine in which there was a party given in Monaco by Prince Rainier to the Monaco's citizens and it was Prince Michael and Maria were guests.

My opinion, King Constantine has a Danish passport. in Denmark sites can act as surname, the surname of Constantine can be:
.af Grækenland, in danish
. Ellada (ελλάδα)
These surnames are valid in both Denmark and Greece because Greece must respect the legislation of Denmark and Denmark has to respect the legislation of Greece. The Danish law allows its nationals stating these surnames. Greek law does not allow places to be surname. The family have Danish passport, is in accordance with Danish law and Greece must respect it.


The surname should be respected, the surname of King Constantine appears in your Danish passport and should be respected, in conclusion if you do not know the surname of a person, you can not call Glubsburg him, because:
.Glubsburg is not surname , this is not valid according to Greek law.It is a place and a title of nobility and can not act as surname in Greece.
.he has a surname in his passport that is valid in the Danish legislation, and therefore it should be respected.
If into their passport it is "af Grækenland" or "ellada", it is in Greece ,must respect law of Denmark.

[Nikolopoulus]

I like Ellada, but Why Do you first say that it is valid in Greece and after you say that it would not be valid in Greece becuase the places are not surname in Greece?

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA

I have a magazine in which there was a party given in Monaco by Prince Rainier to the Monaco's citizens and it was Prince Michael and Maria were guests...

Your rationale is somewhat flawed. By international convention, surnames get transliterated, not translated.
Following your rationale, the surname, say, Papandreou should be Priestandreou in English [since papas in Greek means priest] and there is no precedent to this.
Thus, af Graekendland in Greek could, would and should be Αφ Γκρέκενλαντ and not της Ελλάδος. And I am certain that the Greek authorities would have no problem with Αφ Γκρέκενλαντ should he apply for naturalization.

[BELTRANEJA]

Each country has its laws, the law emanates from the people represented in Parliament. . Danish law has requirements must have a valid surname for their nationals. First I doubt that the Danish legislation as in other countries accept different alphabets to own, for example ελλάδα.. But this allowed the phonetic translation as in Spain or France..a Example the naturalized Russians assume the surname traslated to the alphabet Spanish.
A person with danish passport in a foreign states his surname is the surname of his Danish passport, who denies the surname that appears in the passport Danish, denies the danish law and sovereignty. The greek royal family has a passport danish, they have a surname under the legislation of Denmark, In Greece, Spain, in France, Norway , German .... their surname is what appears in their passport.
(I say thet in Greece is valid this surname because his passport is danish) .
Conversely, a Greek with Greek surname in Spain, in Denmark , Norway, France ....... his surname is that of his Greek passport and this should be respected.

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA

Each country has its laws, the law emanates from the people represented in Parliament. . Danish law has requirements must have a valid surname for their nationals. First I doubt that the Danish legislation as in other countries accept different alphabets to own, for example ελλάδα.. But this allowed the phonetic translation as in Spain or France..a Example the naturalized Russians assume the surname traslated to the alphabet Spanish.
A person with danish passport in a foreign states his surname is the surname of his Danish passport, who denies the surname that appears in the passport Danish, denies the danish law and sovereignty. The greek royal family has a passport danish, they have a surname under the legislation of Denmark, In Greece, Spain, in France, Norway , German .... their surname is what appears in their passport.
(I say thet in Greece is valid this surname because his passport is danish) .
Conversely, a Greek with Greek surname in Spain, in Denmark , Norway, France ....... his surname is that of his Greek passport and this should be respected.

That is correct. His official surname is Af Graekenland. And I am sure that when addressed by some official, say, in an airport or elsewhere, this is how he is [should be] referred to, but this doesn't stop any Greek [and in Greece, many people have nicknames], be it a physical person, a newspaper, a legal body, in other words, anyone other than the State itself, to refer to him or address him as they please.