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  #21  
Old 03-26-2009, 06:07 PM
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And what was the deal with the Comte's father? Disinheirting everyone?
The late Comte de Paris ruled that the marriages of two of his sons, Michel and Thibaut, were unequal so he handed them 'lesser' titles. Thus, the children of the Comte d'Erveux and Comte de la Marche were initially without dynastic rights & titles.

The Comte de Paris was understandably unhappy when the (then) Comte de Clermont left his wife, which was in the mid to late 70s. The Comte de Paris made sure that the Comtesse de Clermont and her children were taken care of. After the Comte de Clermont divorced Marie-Therese in 1984, the Comte de Paris disinherited his eldest son and stated that his grandson Prince Jean would be the heir. The Comte de Paris demoted his son to the title of Comte de Mortain. It was also at this time that Marie-Therese was named Duchesse de Montpensier.

However, father and son reconciled in 1990 or 1991 (Point de Vue covered it) and Michaela received the title Princesse de Joinville from her father-in-law and the younger Henri was restored to his place in the succession.
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2009, 06:44 PM
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I can understand why some people are upset.
It does not matter IMHO who forced who to marry. He did and fathered 5 children, one being his heir who is getting married himself in about 6 weeks. BTW Is he going to that wedding? It would be tense to say the least.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pamk View Post
I wish that I could get my hands on the autobiography of Diane of Wurttembourg...
Amazon sells it. You need to order it from France. She tells a lot about a lot of things. I bought it but did not read it yet.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2009, 08:52 PM
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I think that for years his children would have nothing to do with him.... the situation has changed obviously but the relationships are tense. Of course it is only things I read...I only repeat what I read
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:57 PM
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Just as a general remark, many here and on French message boards express sympathy for the duchess of Montpensier but we do not know what her position in this is. It is very well possible that she agreed with the anulment (it is more diffucult to obtain if she did not) and she and her former husband seemed friendly enough at the wedding of their son, they were even seated next to each other!
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  #26  
Old 03-27-2009, 06:52 AM
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The Duchess is a very sincere and devoted catholic.... knowing that her marriage was annulled so didn't exist in the eyes of the Church must be devastating for her !
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2009, 07:09 AM
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Well, isn't an anulment usually preferable for a devout catholic than just a divorce, since in the case of a divorce the church still considers you married anyway? The count and duchess have been divorced for about 25 years now, which is a long time and I suppose the biggest shock about it was in the 1984, when they actually divorced.
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  #28  
Old 03-27-2009, 10:23 AM
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The Duchess is a very sincere and devoted catholic.... knowing that her marriage was annulled so didn't exist in the eyes of the Church must be devastating for her !
I can't speak for the Duchess directly, but can only convey my own experience.

Because annullment says that at the time of the marriage, there were flaws that rendered the marriage invalid, anullment actually came as a tremendous relief to me. What it meant was that, no matter what I did, no matter what course of action I took or did not take, the marriage was never there. There was nothing to try to "save," no course of action that would have rendered it valid. That although I entered into the marriage in good faith, the marriage simply did not exist because of a serious flaw at its very outset. And so, it was a complete relief to know that no matter what I did, I could not "save" a marriage that did not exist.

We don't know the grounds for the annullment for the Duchess. I can tell you that the Church recognizes a number of grounds that render a person unable to give free consent, because of the lack of understanding of the nature of marriage. For instance - and may I say in advance that I am not saying this in the case of the Duchess - suppose a young woman had been severely sexually abused by her male parent? Would she truly be able to understand the nature of the marriage bond? Or would it take a long time and some very serious introspection to understand that? Could she give free consent to marriage when she had been taught an unnatural and unholy way of relationships between men and women?

Suppose a young man came from a home where philadering was rampant. Would that young man understand the nature of the marriage bond? Could he give consent to a marriage when he lacked the understanding that marriage means fidelity?

Suppose that either of the parties were alcoholic or had drug dependency issues. Under the law, they aren't even capable or legally allowed to drive an auto under the influence. Can they "defog" enough to understand the marriage bond? Or has their view of the world become so skewed that they cannot comprehend marriage? Are they looking for a savior to rescue them from the dependency?

We don't know.

What I can say is that, instead of devastation at the receiving of the annullment, I felt a sense of peace and freedom that I can't begin to express. It was as though a loving hand had placed itself on my head and said to me "My daughter, I know you tried. It was not in your power, to save something that never was. You are released."

Again, I wish this for the Duchess, and it is my sincere hope that the Count of Paris has sought this out for his spiritual peace as well.

In a graceless world, it can be an act of grace.
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  #29  
Old 03-27-2009, 10:33 AM
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Thank you very much for the explanation. It is very much appreciated.
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  #30  
Old 03-27-2009, 02:58 PM
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Still ... it was not easy for Duchess of Montpensier to realise and accept that (1) she received a flawed sacrament; and (2)25 years of her life was just a mistake. This particular case vividly exemplifies how much humans can at times be very selfish, putting their needs before others’ and their own comfort first.
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  #31  
Old 03-27-2009, 07:31 PM
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It is an awful procedure and should be abolished, along with a number of other awful procedures of the church. Divorce is divorce and what makes this other procedure "holy"?
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  #32  
Old 03-27-2009, 08:50 PM
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Either you believe in God or you don't believe. If you believe you believe these procedures are holy. Everybody make their own choice, thank God we are free to believe or not !
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  #33  
Old 03-27-2009, 08:57 PM
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The annulment of a marriage is a religious matter indeed, but I would appreciate it if we will be able to stop this thread from turning into a religious debate. This is not the right forum for such a debate, vbullitin does have forums dedicated to the catholic church, one of them can be found here. General questions about the annulment can be posted here of course.
Thank you all.
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  #34  
Old 03-27-2009, 09:07 PM
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Childern?

Annulment when children are present, proof of a loving consensual relationship seems wrong.

Kind of getting tired of the lack of focus for our long held establishment of civilized living a slap in the face of families who have done so much for our happiness, freedom, rights and joy.

Peace,

E-T
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  #35  
Old 03-28-2009, 06:17 AM
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As NotAPretender has pointed out above, it is highly likely that both parties supported the annulment process, otherwise the annulment would not have been granted.
Whatever the case, none of us are in a position to read the mind of the duchesse de Montpensier nor that of the comte de Paris.
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  #36  
Old 03-28-2009, 10:19 AM
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Here is an article from the newspaper Le Figaro of yesterday about the future religious wedding of the count of Paris and the princess of Joinville : http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...mteDeParis.jpg

It will be in the end of september at the castle of Arcangues, in the Basque Country.
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  #37  
Old 03-28-2009, 01:56 PM
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So sweet of him to wait till September to get married......so he does not overshadow his son's wedding.
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  #38  
Old 03-28-2009, 03:53 PM
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Isn't the princess of Jonville already 'upgraded' to duchess of France and even to countess of Paris?
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  #39  
Old 03-28-2009, 05:44 PM
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Isn't the princess of Jonville already 'upgraded' to duchess of France and even to countess of Paris?
Yes the Count of Paris introduced the title Duke of France when he succeeded his father in 1999 so that there was a title he could share with his wife. And since the death of his mother she also uses Countess of Paris.
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  #40  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:32 PM
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From what I have read - and I will have to go dig it up if anyone would like - the civil part of the marriage has already taken place in the presence of immediate family; the groom's parents were both in attendence and were seated next to each other. I would think that the religious ceremony would also be equally - no pun intended - civil.

Clearly, everyone has put a lot of thought and effort into this. It's gratifying to see, from my perspective.
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