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  #641  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Frankly, I doubt that you would know how these actions or non actions have affected their lives unless you have spoken to them personally. And I have serious doubts that you have. The only person who can ever say that something has affected their lives, especially significantly, is the person in question. I would not presume to say that your writing this book has significantly affected your life, because I am not you, so I don't pretend to speak for you. It goes the same with all people.
Empress, have you read my book?
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  #642  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:13 AM
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Whether I have or have not is really not the question. And I think that you should stop challenging people on this matter. The question inherent in this thread is whether or not your assertions in the book are believable, and in my educated opinion they are not.
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  #643  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Whether I have or have not is really not the question. And I think that you should stop challenging people on this matter. The question inherent in this thread is whether or not your assertions in the book are believable, and in my educated opinion they are not.
As Warren just stated in a post, it DOES matter whether you have read it or not. This thread is for people, who have read 1015 (preferably all of it)
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  #644  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:21 AM
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You would like to debate people on whether or not they have read the book, but what do you say to people who do not want to throw good money after bad and buy a book before they've gotten an impression of how others receive that book?

Many people will buy a book only after reading the reviews of said book by their contemporaries and reliable sources who have read and reviewed the book. The majority of the reviews in this thread have very little good to say about this book, and the published reports that I can find are also not stellar in their reviews. That's not to say that some on this forum have not found the book a good read, but they are in the minority.

Thus, if you really only want to debate the merits of your book with people who have read your book, then you might find a small audience. What might be better would be if you attempted to talk to people about why they should read your book and give better explanations as to sources, reasons for your conclusions, and why people might have not liked your book, and then you might find more people who were willing to buy the book and read it for themselves. However, the defensive, I won't answer any questions put to me unless you've read the book is putting off a lot of potential readers.
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  #645  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
As Warren just stated in a post, it DOES matter whether you have read it or not. This thread is for people, who have read 1015 (preferably all of it)
Well then, in this case I suppose it is bad luck for you that I have read it, and my personal opinion is that it's just so much ridiculous tabloid nonsense, speculation and personal conclusions, which you would like to pass off as established fact.

The lack of sources is completely detrimental to anything that the book might have had to say that was worth listening to, and the authors intrusiveness and at times complete lack of dignity and grace make this a book that I think is fit only for the tabloids and those that are willing and gullible enough to believe everything that is written.
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  #646  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:29 AM
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Well then, in this case I suppose it is bad luck for you that I have read it, and my personal opinion is that it's just so much tabloid nonsense.
No I am delighted you have read it! Now I know exactly where you stand on this whole issue of my book. It is not knowledge discussing here. It is prejudice! You have chosen not to believe a word of what I have written. That's your prerogative, but it hardly makes for a constructive discussion, does it?
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  #647  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:34 AM
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You would like to debate people on whether or not they have read the book, but what do you say to people who do not want to throw good money after bad and buy a book before they've gotten an impression of how others receive that book?

Many people will buy a book only after reading the reviews of said book by their contemporaries and reliable sources who have read and reviewed the book. The majority of the reviews in this thread have very little good to say about this book, and the published reports that I can find are also not stellar in their reviews. That's not to say that some on this forum have not found the book a good read, but they are in the minority.

Thus, if you really only want to debate the merits of your book with people who have read your book, then you might find a small audience. What might be better would be if you attempted to talk to people about why they should read your book and give better explanations as to sources, reasons for your conclusions, and why people might have not liked your book, and then you might find more people who were willing to buy the book and read it for themselves. However, the defensive, I won't answer any questions put to me unless you've read the book is putting off a lot of potential readers.
Oh, but I am not here to catch potential readers. You have all made of your minds a long time ago. Nothing I say or do can change your opinions.
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  #648  
Old 09-07-2008, 11:38 AM
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No, I believe that I am talking from the standpoint of having read your book, and thoroughly compared your assertions to those of published reliable sources and reports, and found your book completely lacking. That's not prejudice, but educated opinion. Call it what you like, but if you only want to hear positive comments about your book, then you'll have to form your own fan club.

Prejudice would be if I had not read your book, nor any of the comments here, and just decided based on your actions here that your book were not worth the paper it was printed on. I came to that conclusion after reading the book. Nope, that is not considered prejudice. In my definition of prejudice, a person can not be educated on the topic and still be prejudiced.

So if you are not here to catch potential readers, and you are not interested in the educated opinions of those that have read the book, and you are not interested in the opinions of those who have not read the book, and will not do so based on the feedback in this thread, then why exactly are you here? You only really became active once the book was published in english. And really only in this thread.

And on that note, I am done discussing your book. I've given you my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but this discussion is over for me.
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  #649  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:12 PM
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Trine,

I'd like to ask a question about the book. Do you go into the family dynamics of Christian X-Frederik IX in your book?

From what I've read, Frederik IX sought to distance himself from his father and set the family up as an 'ideal family' with no interest in politics which was definitely not in keeping with the principles of Christian X.

I imagine this attitude influenced his leadership of the family and how his daughters were raised.

Can you provide any enlightment?

Thanks.
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  #650  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
No, I believe that I am talking from the standpoint of having read your book, and thoroughly compared your assertions to those of published reliable sources and reports, and found your book completely lacking. That's not prejudice, but educated opinion. Call it what you like, but if you only want to hear positive comments about your book, then you'll have to form your own fan club.

Prejudice would be if I had not read your book, nor any of the comments here, and just decided based on your actions here that your book were not worth the paper it was printed on. I came to that conclusion after reading the book. Nope, that is not considered prejudice. In my definition of prejudice, a person can not be educated on the topic and still be prejudiced.

So if you are not here to catch potential readers, and you are not interested in the educated opinions of those that have read the book, and you are not interested in the opinions of those who have not read the book, and will not do so based on the feedback in this thread, then why exactly are you here? You only really became active once the book was published in english. And really only in this thread.

And on that note, I am done discussing your book. I've given you my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but this discussion is over for me.
And for that I am glad. You seem so very ignorant about the general royal family environment and culture that surrounds at least the scandinavian royals. I don't know what personal experience you have of living in a country with royal families or if you did, how close to the royal circle you were. Many of the sentiments in the book are not someones opinion but have been openly spoken about for generations. Monarchy and the traditions and culture that surrounds it are very unique. Logic is occassionally completely lost on it.
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  #651  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Viv View Post

The paradigm shifted after WW2, when the protestant monarchies
were running short of eligible princes. It would have been interesting if
we could have been flies on the walls of the Northern European
royal palaces in the late 1950s and 60s! The RFs had to reconsider the
"market" and their marriage prospects with four princesses in the Netherlands,
three in Denmark, four in Sweden, and if we include the UK at least
one (Alexandra of Kent), who were all in or approaching the marriageable
age.

Each of these RFs has handled the "eligibles" problem differently,
and I will abstain from judging which has done the best job in this
respect. The Brits seem to shun anything even remotely German-blooded;
but then again they have a population of 60 mill. as a recruitment
base.
In our case it pre-dated WW2, probably because most brides of British royals had been German and WW1 pretty much put the lid on that one. Apparently the Prime Minister told George V that Parliament wouldn't object to their children finding spouses from among the prominent British families, and that marriage with other royal houses wasn't a necessity. Not that it ever really had been - there had been marriages with British noble families before, but not in the Hanover-Windsor era. So three of the six children of George V ended up doing exactly that and only one married into a European royal house.
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  #652  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Well, that's excellent! Your local library must have bought a lot of copies, then
.

Libraries usually only buy one kopi of a book somtimes two. If the demand is high people are noted on a waitinglist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
I would still suggest, you take my book out again, so you can re-read the passages, where I describe the impact it has had on Frederik and Joachim, that they were not allowed to marry Danish girls.
I don't need to - there is a reason why I only read a part of the book and endet up only skimming through the rest. The reason is, I concur with the reviews made when the book was published.
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  #653  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
Well, if you have not read my book, maybe you should read it and then post your comments? There are, by the way, photos in the Danish edition of the book. The lack of an index, I have explained in an earlier post.
I'm probably being clueless, but I can't find that earlier post. Could you point me to it?
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  #654  
Old 09-07-2008, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Villemann View Post
No I am delighted you have read it! Now I know exactly where you stand on this whole issue of my book. It is not knowledge discussing here. It is prejudice! You have chosen not to believe a word of what I have written. That's your prerogative, but it hardly makes for a constructive discussion, does it?
Now hang on a minute. If you're going to dismiss negative reactions to the book as prejudice, then why is it important to you if the person has read it or not? If reading the book (rather than reacting to other people's reviews) is important to you, then you should take negative reactions as seriously as positive ones. You said yourself that the book was controversial, which means that some people are going to read it and disagree with the controversial parts. It isn't fair to just shrug that off as prejudice.

In my review of the book, I said that the lack of named sources was a problem (as have a lot of other people), and I think you're seeing this problem manifesting itself here. Those of us who've read several Diana biographies have seen a few where the author's own opinion is hiding behind "a source told me," as becomes pretty obvious when you see what else that author has written in the past and also what other authors are saying. Not that I'm saying that that's what you're doing, but most of us don't know one way or the other how much of the anonymously sourced material to take as being authoritative.

The other thing is that you appear to be contradicting yourself (and please put me right here if I'm missing something, which is always possible) by saying on the one hand that Katja was the great love of Frederik's life, he'd never have married Mary if he'd been able to have his own way, etc etc, and then saying on the other hand that it's up to Mary to rescue him from his unhappy upbringing and his terrible lack of confidence and his fear of inheriting the throne. If Mary was the great shining love of his life this would be a near-impossible task, but if she isn't, then there really isn't any hope.
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  #655  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
And for that I am glad. You seem so very ignorant about the general royal family environment and culture that surrounds at least the scandinavian royals. I don't know what personal experience you have of living in a country with royal families or if you did, how close to the royal circle you were.
This thread IMO is not about discussing what knowledge Empress has or has not. It is about discussing Villemanns book.

I concur with the comments made by Empress in her post 645 and 648. If negativ feedback on this book isn't welcommed I don't find any reason for having this thread at all as no discussion will be generated and so will no learning either. It will only be a fan-club.
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  #656  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
In our case it pre-dated WW2, probably because most brides of British royals had been German and WW1 pretty much put the lid on that one. Apparently the Prime Minister told George V that Parliament wouldn't object to their children finding spouses from among the prominent British families, and that marriage with other royal houses wasn't a necessity. Not that it ever really had been - there had been marriages with British noble families before, but not in the Hanover-Windsor era. So three of the six children of George V ended up doing exactly that and only one married into a European royal house.
Well there was Lady Anne Hyde, wife of James II, but he was Stuart and not Hanoverian. Although between Elizabeth Woodville and four of the wives of Henry VIII, the English seemed more tolerant of English-English marriages than their continental counterparts. In Henry VIII's time, it was cynically mentioned that his preference for English brides was that he could do with them as he wished. The only two who escaped with divorce were Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves. However, later Bertie's and Victoria's treatment of Alexandra and the King of Denmark's disinclination to do anything about it made the threat of a foreign king's displeasure at the treatment of his daughter rather a null and void argument.

The Danes took the accepted viewpoint of marrying royals from other countries and when the strictures on marring royals were done away with, the unspoken rule about marrying foreigners remained.

It is a curious anomoly.
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  #657  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
And for that I am glad. You seem so very ignorant about the general royal family environment and culture that surrounds at least the scandinavian royals. I don't know what personal experience you have of living in a country with royal families or if you did, how close to the royal circle you were. Many of the sentiments in the book are not someones opinion but have been openly spoken about for generations. Monarchy and the traditions and culture that surrounds it are very unique. Logic is occassionally completely lost on it.
Interestingly, Empress has been a Danish forum moderator for a while now, and I don't recall complaints about her ignorance of the royal family environment and culture during her tenure as a moderator and participant in the Danish forum. Most of what she's taking issue with is in fact the opinion rather than the historical fact; as you can see from the posts of other members, including Danes living in Denmark, the issue about Danish royals marrying foreigners rather than other Danes is not exactly clear. It seems to be custom or tradition rather than legal requirement, but from the preceding discussion in this thread it isn't clear how binding that tradition is.
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  #658  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:42 PM
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Now hang on a minute. If you're going to dismiss negative reactions to the book as prejudice, then why is it important to you if the person has read it or not? If reading the book (rather than reacting to other people's reviews) is important to you, then you should take negative reactions as seriously as positive ones. You said yourself that the book was controversial, which means that some people are going to read it and disagree with the controversial parts. It isn't fair to just shrug that off as prejudice.

In my review of the book, I said that the lack of named sources was a problem (as have a lot of other people), and I think you're seeing this problem manifesting itself here. Those of us who've read several Diana biographies have seen a few where the author's own opinion is hiding behind "a source told me," as becomes pretty obvious when you see what else that author has written in the past and also what other authors are saying. Not that I'm saying that that's what you're doing, but most of us don't know one way or the other how much of the anonymously sourced material to take as being authoritative.

The other thing is that you appear to be contradicting yourself (and please put me right here if I'm missing something, which is always possible) by saying on the one hand that Katja was the great love of Frederik's life, he'd never have married Mary if he'd been able to have his own way, etc etc, and then saying on the other hand that it's up to Mary to rescue him from his unhappy upbringing and his terrible lack of confidence and his fear of inheriting the throne. If Mary was the great shining love of his life this would be a near-impossible task, but if she isn't, then there really isn't any hope.
I call it prejudice, because it is so obvious that Empress is not prepared to actually discuss my book. It is very clear, when you read my book, how Frederik and Joachim have both struggled with this silly royal family tradition of having to marry foreigners. Empress is outright dismissing these facts. My opinions in the book are confined to the last chapter and I have already taken on board what you said about that chapter "disrupting" the whole rhytm of the book. As for Katja? Yes, she was Frederik's first love. Unfortunately they were not allowed to marry. IMO that does not diminish Frederik's love for CP Mary one bit as some hardcore Mary-fans seem to believe! I bet most of us have had previous partners, we were in love with.But yes,IMO, it is in Mary's hands to try to make a king out of Frederik. It part of her job desciption, if you like, to make him the best sovereign, that she possibly can.
I welcome discussion. I do not shy away from controversy, as some of you might have noticed, but it is very hard to discuss my book, when your counter part is basically dismissing every word written as "tabloid nonsense." Then what is left to discuss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I'm probably being clueless, but I can't find that earlier post. Could you point me to it?
I don't mind repeating it, because I am too lazy to go back and find the post! The lack of an index was a deliberate decision on my part. I wanted there to be a "flow" to the book and,IMO, when you have an index, many readers tend to dip in and out of a book and only read fragments.
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  #659  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
No, I believe that I am talking from the standpoint of having read your book, and thoroughly compared your assertions to those of published reliable sources and reports, and found your book completely lacking. That's not prejudice, but educated opinion. Call it what you like, but if you only want to hear positive comments about your book, then you'll have to form your own fan club.

That's a good idea. Maybe we should start a thread for "Fans of Trine Villemann?"

Prejudice would be if I had not read your book, nor any of the comments here, and just decided based on your actions here that your book were not worth the paper it was printed on. I came to that conclusion after reading the book. Nope, that is not considered prejudice. In my definition of prejudice, a person can not be educated on the topic and still be prejudiced.

Prejudice exactly for the reasons, you are stating. You are simply dismissing every word I wrote as "tabloid nonsense." You are ignoring facts because they do not fit into your views of my book. That's not forming an educated opinion. It the opposite.

So if you are not here to catch potential readers, and you are not interested in the educated opinions of those that have read the book, and you are not interested in the opinions of those who have not read the book, and will not do so based on the feedback in this thread, then why exactly are you here? You only really became active once the book was published in english. And really only in this thread.

I have been very active on other threads too, but as I am trying to write a second book, I have limited time. However, I enjoy this thread, because I enjoy discussing my book and it is interesting for someone like me to see just how upset people get, when you dare ask critical questions of your royal house.It is good material.

And on that note, I am done discussing your book. I've given you my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but this discussion is over for me.
I thought, we were just getting started! A moderator, who refuses to engage, is definately a novelty in this forum!
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  #660  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:55 PM
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After completing the book, I will add my small voice to the discussion. This book is not the first and certainly not the last to not name names. Several anecdotes are lifted from press articles that can be found on the internet. While the book is not on the level of research as, say, Alison Weir or Julia P Gelardi, it should not be discounted completely. There are interesting parallels of the dynamics between the DRF and the BRF regarding how both the CP of Denmark and The Prince of Wales are sensitive souls who had domineering fathers, distant mothers and turned to their grandmothers for motherly love. This may be a pattern that is inherent to this Royal structure. This may be difficult to prove, since there have been so few Queens’ Regnant in History. The last chapter is more of an open letter to the Crown Princess rather than a part of the book and would be better as an epilogue. Nevertheless, thanks to this book I have added several books to my list to learn more about this monarchy. I have to agree that CP Mary is the one in a prime position to adapt the monarchy. I don’t think it is in trouble, but the republican wolves seem to be gathering. Queen Ingrid was born of a royal house who saw other royal houses swept from the map in WWI. She, like Queen Mary of Great Britain knew the monarchy must change with the times to survive. She may have been Fred’s beloved mormor, but as Ms. Villeman put it she was also “an iron fist in a velvet glove.” Mary Donaldson, being a middle-class commoner (no disrespect intended), from the other side of the world is unsuited to take on an age-old institution such as this to change it. There is too much intoxication from the pomp and ceremony and celebrity to get down to the business at hand. And that business is CP Fred. If he does not have that internal drive to keep growing as a Prince, he needs a gentle push from his wife. CP Mary’s job is twofold: to provide heirs to the throne, and to support her husband; to guide him when he needs it and to be his closest advisor. But she needs to throw herself into the inner workings of Denmark to do this. Something that an outsider might not be able to do.
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