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  #101  
Old 06-12-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
I thought they would still be a member (like Maurits is now) because it is third degree (Het Koninklijk Huis)
No, you confuse the membership and the succession. When Prince Willem-Alexander becomes King, the new Act will be in full force, with an exception for Princess Margriet and her spouse, out of courteoisie.

The membership of the Royal House will be limited to 2 degrees of consanguity to the King.
The succession remains limited to 3 degrees of consanguity to the King.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Prince Willem-Alexander is King tomorrow, members of the Royal House are:

0 : HM The King
HRH The Princess of the Netherlands (or HM The Queen)

1 : HRH The Princess of Orange
1 : HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands
1 : HRH Princess Ariane of the Netherlands
1 : HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands

2 : HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands
HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands

3 : HRH Princess Margriet of the Netherlands *
Prof. mr. Pieter van Vollenhoven *

(* out of courteoisie, Princess Margriet and Prof. Van Vollenhoven will remain member of the Royal House)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Prince Willem-Alexander becomes King tomorrow, in the line of succession are:

1 : HRH The Princess of Orange
1 : HRH Princess Alexia of the Netherlands
1 : HRH Princess Ariane of the Netherlands

2 : HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands
3 : Eloïse Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
3 : Claus-Casimir Count van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
3 : Leonore Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg

3 : HRH Princess Margriet of the Netherlands

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neither a member of the Royal House nor in the line of succession will be:

2 : HRH Prince Friso, Count van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
HRH Princess Mabel, Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
3 : Luana Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
3 : Zaria Countess van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg

3 : HRH Princess Irene of the Netherlands
4 : HRH Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme, Prince de Piacenza
4 : HRH Princess Margarita de Bourbon de Parme, Countess de Colorno
4 : HRH Prince Jaime de Bourbon de Parme, Count de Bardi
4 : HRH Princess Maria Carolina de Bourbon de Parme, Marchioness de Sala

4 : HH Prince Maurits van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
HH Princess Marilène van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
5 : Anna van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven
5 : Lucas van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven
5 : Felicia van Lippe-Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven

4 : HH Prince Bernhard van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
HH Princess Annette van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
5 : Isabella van Vollenhoven
5 : Samuel van Vollenhoven

4 : HH Prince Pieter-Christiaan van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
HH Princess Anita van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
5 : Emma van Vollenhoven

4 : HH Prince Floris van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven
HH Princess Aimée van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven

3 : HRH Princess Christina of the Netherlands
4: Bernardo Guillermo
4 : Nicolas Guillermo
4 : Juliana Guillermo
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  #102  
Old 06-12-2007, 12:55 PM
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Thanks for explaining
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  #103  
Old 06-13-2007, 02:07 AM
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Thanks for the explinations! I'm not very familiar with this royal house and how things work. It's very educational! But out of curiosity.... Why was 1 : HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands list under members of the royal house but not in the line of succession? So when Willem-Alexander's kids marry and have their own children, it'll kick 2 : HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands & HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands and their kids out of both the royal house & line of succession?
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  #104  
Old 06-13-2007, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168
Thanks for the explinations! I'm not very familiar with this royal house and how things work. It's very educational! But out of curiosity.... Why was 1 : HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands list under members of the royal house but not in the line of succession? So when Willem-Alexander's kids marry and have their own children, it'll kick 2 : HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands & HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands and their kids out of both the royal house & line of succession?
1. When Queen Beatrix abdicates, she will retain to the title she had before the kingship. On base of article 1 of the Royal House Act the King, the future King and the King who has abdicated always remain a member of the Royal House. After abdicating, she also loses her place in the line of succession: after all, her son is the Sovereign now.

2. On base of article 1a of the Royal House Act, Prince Constantijn (and his spouse) will be kicked out of the Royal House when Amalia becomes Queen: they are furtherer related more than two degrees of consanguity. Between uncle Constantijn and niece Amalia are three degrees of consanguity. He will however remain in the line of succession because the successors are those no furtherer related to The King than three degrees of consanguity.
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  #105  
Old 06-13-2007, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
2. He will however remain in the line of succession because the successors are those no furtherer related to The King than three degrees of consanguity.
What would happen if Queen Beatrix stays queen till Amalia is married, with children? Is great-grandmother and great-grandchild not three degrees as well? Would Amalia's child then not become a prince/princess automatically?
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  #106  
Old 06-13-2007, 04:17 AM
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The lawmaker has foreseen this scenario:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
What would happen if Queen Beatrix stays queen till Amalia is married, with children? Is great-grandmother and great-grandchild not three degrees as well? Would Amalia's child then not become a prince/princess automatically?
In the case that Princess Catharina-Amalia will have children, they do not belong to the Royal House because they are furtherer related to the Sovereign than 2 degrees of consanguity.

0 HM The Queen
1 HRH The Prince of Orange
2 HRH Princess Catharina-Amalia
------------------------------------
3 the children of Princess Catharina-Amalia

As a result of this, the children of Princess Catharina-Amalia can, on base of consanguity, not become a member of the Royal House.

But the lawmaker has foreseen this scenario. In article 4 of the Royal House Act is stated that, after consultation of the Council of State, the membership can be granted to persons who can succeed the Sovereign.

Because the children of Princess Catharina-Amalia can succeed the Sovereign, they will most likely be made a member of the Royal House, by Royal Decree, and also be created a Prince(ss) of the Netherlands, Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau, with the predicate HRH.
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  #107  
Old 06-13-2007, 12:18 PM
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Thanks again, Henri M. for making this complex matter a little bit clearer for all of us. And feel proud, I've quoted you in my class of Dutch when explaining this to my classmates

Now coming back to the subject, as you say Máxima can be called Queen, even if, according to The Act, she remains as Princess of The Netherlands (not even 'Van Orange') when Willem Alexander becomes King.

I strongly believe that she will be called Queen by Dutch people, as they actually wish and feel her to be, for everything she's accomplished and the very strong role she's had in the reinforcement of WA as future King. As for Beatrix, when she comes back to being "Princess" (assuming an abdication), I doubt whether people will call her Princess again. Juliana was generally addressed as 'Juliana' or 'Koningin Juliana' even after she abdicated....wasn't she?
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  #108  
Old 06-13-2007, 12:34 PM
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i must say i'm quite sad to hear beatrix will become just princess when she abdicates. of course i knew queen juliana was princess juliana after beatrix became queen, but even so i felt stranged that she will just be a princess again, just as laurentien or other princesses. isn't the title "queen mother" used at all, at least informally, in the netherlands?

in case maxima and the other crown princesses (letizia, mary, mathilde, mette-marit) become queens in a relatively close time, would that mean the now queen beatrix will have to curtsy or bow to them, as they would be queens? intuition tells me that's impossible, but after all... princesses curtsy to queens. this would be an extremely awkward situation for me to see, i must admit.

i hope they finally decide to give maxima the title of queen... :)

another quick question: wasn't princess emma referred to as queen emma during the kingship of her husband the king?
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  #109  
Old 06-13-2007, 12:51 PM
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Queen Emma was Queen from her marriage untill the day she died.
I don't know if it is obligatory now for HM to become a Princess or that she can stay Queen. Queen Wilhelmina (Emma's daughter) however started a precedent when she wanted to go back to her old title. She liked the idea because she said it was born with that title and she would now die with it too. And of course Wilhemina didn't want her Queenly status to overshadow her daughters reign.
Of course one can see in Luxembourg that it can work very well, the retired Grand Duke isn't overshadowing his son at all. But for Beatrix to change this would be rather odd and public opinion would probably call her a snob.

As a former head of state I don't think Queen Beatrix would be required to curtsy. Queen Juliana certainly did not curtsey to her daughter or even foreign Kings. Of course Dutch court abolished the curtsy decades ago.
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  #110  
Old 06-13-2007, 01:01 PM
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In any case, if Queen Beatrix decides to go back to being Princess, she will naturally outrank every other Princess in the country by virtue of several reasons. One, she is a princess of the blood royal, so she would naturally outrank her daughters in law. Two she is older than her daughters in law and would take precedence even if they were of equal rank, and by the same token she would outrank her sisters. And thirdly, she would outrank all other princesses by virtue of being a former monarch. I do not think that there will be an issue with precedence.


** Note she likely will not outrank the incumbant Queen, who would be Maxima, but might be given precedence within the family by virtue of her status, but not on formal occasions.***
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  #111  
Old 06-13-2007, 01:06 PM
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Well, the Dutch court isn't that strickt about ranks when they are among themselves anyway. princess Irene usually still goes ahead Princess Margriet and Princess Mabel goes ahead Princess Laurentien, which isn't in line with their 'ranking'.

As wife of the monarch, Maxima will escort her husband and will lead any royal procession. So no Russian stuff at Noordeinde (in Russia the mother of the emperor outranked his wife).
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  #112  
Old 06-13-2007, 01:49 PM
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A habit has been formalized

Queen Wilhelmina became HRH Princess Wilhelmina of the Netherlands after her abdication. On her own request.

Queen Juliana became HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands after her abdication. On her own request.

Under Queen Beatrix this habit is formalized in the Royal House Act 2002: she will become HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands after her abdication.

And the King will become HRH Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands after his abdication.

Thought behind this is, that there is only one Sovereign, who is called King (male) or Queen (female). Exclusively linked to their position and their person only.

The same applies for the Heir(ess) apparent: there is only one person who has this position and he (she) exclusively bears the title Prince (Princess) of Orange.

With other words: the Royal House Act 2002 has excluded the titles 'King of the Netherlands' and 'Prince of Orange' to be shared by the female spouse. Because these are the only noble title on which is not exclusively be inherited by issue from a male descendant only, as is the case with all other noble titles in the Netherlands.
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  #113  
Old 07-12-2007, 04:50 PM
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I may have read, that Princess Maxima should get Queen Maxima of the Netherlands. But we will see.
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  #114  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
I may have read, that Princess Maxima should get Queen Maxima of the Netherlands. But we will see.
We need to await how the intended situation as written down in the Royal House Act 2002 will work out in the reality after the accession to the throne by King Willem IV Alexander.

But as Parliament (in an overwhelming, almost unanimous majority) has approved the Royal House Act 2002 and as the Sovereign has solemnly pledged to maintain the law, it is hard to see how they can ignore what has been regulated in the Constitution and the Royal House Act.

The only freedom the King (Government) has is to announce that the spouse to the King "will be known as" or "is by tradition styled as" Queen Máxima. The same happened with the present situation: she is the first spouse to The Prince of Orange who does not use the title 'The Princess of Orange'. We are allowed to do so. "By tradition". Or "because of custom in society". But I have never, neither officially nor inofficially heard or seen that Máxima was called 'The Princess of Orange'.

We will see how things will develop.



Only three things are 100% for sure when Willem IV succeeds his mother:

- the abdicated Queen will retain to her old style Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands

- Princess Catharina-Amalia will become The Princess of Orange

- his cousins will cease to be a member of the House and loose ther rights of succession (Prince Maurits, Prince Bernhard)
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  #115  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:17 PM
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None the less, she will most likely be styled Queen Maxima. And frankly, since I am a traditionalist, I think that this is just right. A woman takes her rank from her husband in royal circles, unless of course that woman is sovereign in her own right.

Civilians do this as well in that the majority of women are known by their married names. I am happy and proud to bear my husbands name. But as this is not about me.... If William becomes king, then his wife should have the female equivalent of his title, since she takes her rank from being married to him, for the most part, even if she is princess in her own right.

But that's me... the traditionalist. Besides I think it would be silly to have a king who is married and the wife not be Queen.
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  #116  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
None the less, she will most likely be styled Queen Maxima. And frankly, since I am a traditionalist, I think that this is just right. A woman takes her rank from her husband in royal circles, unless of course that woman is sovereign in her own right.

Civilians do this as well in that the majority of women are known by their married names. I am happy and proud to bear my husbands name. But as this is not about me.... If William becomes king, then his wife should have the female equivalent of his title, since she takes her rank from being married to him, for the most part, even if she is princess in her own right.

But that's me... the traditionalist. Besides I think it would be silly to have a king who is married and the wife not be Queen.
And why not have the Prince Consorts as Kings.
Actually I think The Netherlands has done a good job in dealing with the titles so far and I hope that Maxima remains the Prince(ss) Consort as her husband's ancestors have been and as should all the other spouses with the new inheritance laws in many countries. Does Maxima deserve to have the same title as her mother-in-law who actually does all the serious work of a monarch?
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  #117  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:39 PM
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No, her husbands ancestors, when they were married to the king, were always styled Queen of the Netherlands

Queen Sophie was the Consort of Willem III
Queen Emma of Waldeck-Pyrmont was also the Consort of Willem III
Queen Anna Paulowna was Consort of Willem II
Queen Wilhelmina as consort of Willem I

These are just a few examples. If you would like me to provide more I would be happy to do so. There is no precedence in the Netherlands for a Princess Consort.

It is simply tradition that a woman will take the style of her husband. That is how it has ALWAYS been in royal circles.
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  #118  
Old 07-12-2007, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
No, her husbands ancestors, when they were married to the king, were always styled Queen of the Netherlands

Queen Sophie was the Consort of Willem III
Queen Emma of Waldeck-Pyrmont was also the Consort of Willem III
Queen Anna Paulowna was Consort of Willem II
Queen Wilhelmina as consort of Willem I

These are just a few examples. If you would like me to provide more I would be happy to do so. There is no precedence in the Netherlands for a Princess Consort.

It is simply tradition that a woman will take the style of her husband. That is how it has ALWAYS been in royal circles.
You can really not use the situation of 1813 on the situation since the Constitution changed in 1983 and the Royal House Act 2002.

The logic of the lawmaker is that man can not make the succession gender free, in break with tradition, but keep the old titulature which was discriminatory in gender!


The intention is clear, namely equal rights and equal titles regardless of gender:

The male Sovereign: HM The King
The female Sovereign: HM The Queen

The spouse to the male Sovereign: HRH The Princess of the Netherlands
The spouse to the female Sovereign: HRH The Prince of the Netherlands

The male Heir: HRH The Prince of Orange
The female Heir: HRH The Princess of Orange

The spouse to the male Heir: HRH Princess [name] of the Netherlands
The spouse to the female Heir: HRH Prince [name] of the Netherlands
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  #119  
Old 07-12-2007, 06:06 PM
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Well, since that is the only precedence since there has been a very long string of Queens (in their own right), that is the only thing that we can go on. Furthermore, it is also the tradition in most of the royal houses elsewhere.

None the less, I was replying to the statement that said Willem Alexanders ancestors had been known as Princess Consort, when there is ABSOLUTELY no precedence in the Dutch Royal family for such a title. Whatever the case may be in the future, there is no precedence as yet.
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  #120  
Old 07-12-2007, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
Well, since that is the only precedence since there has been a very long string of Queens (in their own right), that is the only thing that we can go on. Furthermore, it is also the tradition in most of the royal houses elsewhere.

None the less, I was replying to the statement that said Willem Alexanders ancestors had been known as Princess Consort, when there is ABSOLUTELY no precedence in the Dutch Royal family for such a title. Whatever the case may be in the future, there is no precedence as yet.
Princess Catharina-Amalia will become The Princess of Orange. A title which was never ever used by her grandmother Queen Beatrix, her great-grandmother Queen Juliana and her great great-grandmother Queen Wilhelmina.

Like the title The Prince of Wales, this title was exclusively meant for the male heir. The modernization of the Royal House Act has also made an end to this discrimination in gender, weird enough I have not heard anyone protesting about this, on this forum!

Since no longer is discriminated in gender for the succession, the same modernized Royal House Act also made an end to the discrimination in gender to their spouses (females became Queen where males 'only' became Prince).

It lies at hand that all female spouses become a Queen and all male spouses become a King, but for understandable reasons the Government thought this situation was "not desirable". They thought that any chance on confusion about the head of state or about the heir, no matter their gender, should be excluded. So no Queen Catharina-Amalia and King xxx. But Queen Catharina-Amalia and Prince xxx. But to remain consequent: also no King Willem and Queen xxx. But King Willem and Princess xxx.
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