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  #21  
Old 07-11-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Koningin View Post
And if king Willem Alexander abdicate he and Máxima return to prince and princess of the Netherlands ?
It is even vested in Law:

Act of 30th May 2002 on the (membership of the) Royal House


Article 8, first part:

De vermoedelijke opvolger van de Koning en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden.

The presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

Article 9, first part:

De Koning, diens vermoedelijke opvolger en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan, dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau.

The King, his presumed successor, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau.

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  #22  
Old 07-11-2016, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Royal House Act 2002 was perfectly gender neutral:

The monarch = De Koning / De Koningin
The consort = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

The Heir = De Prins (Prinses) van Oranje
The consort = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

The children of the monarch or the Heir = prins (prinses) der Nederlanden

Unlike all consorts to a Prince of Orange before her, Máxima never became Prinses van Oranje because that title was made gender neutral and attached to the person of the Heir exclusively.

The same happened to the title of the consort to the monarch. That became gender neutral too: no matter a male or a female, he/she will be prins (prinses) der Nederlanden.

What happened in 2013? The Government and the Parliament, faced with their very own Act, started to walk on two wobbly ropes. At the one side they wanted to respect the law which says that Máxima is prinses der Nederlanden, like Claus, like Bernhard, like Hendrik. At the other side they found it "undesirable" that Máxima was treated differently from other female spouses to Kings. So a typical -ugly- Dutch solution was found, a mix of the formal title (prinses der Nederlanden) with the informal form of address for a female spouse of a King (koningin Máxima):

It is not:
H.M. koningin Máxima der Nederlanden
But it is:
H.M. koningin Máxima, prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau, mevrouw Van Amsberg


what an interesting fact and explanation, i didn't know about that. it is a clever move, as the press can still refer to her as 'queen maxima', and no one can really tell about this subtle difference. in fact, many newspapers and magazines in the spanish speaking world refer to her as 'queen maxima of the netherlands' in complete oblivion of these subtleties.

in any case, i am glad they reconsidered the 'koningin' title for maxima, it would have looked from the outside (ie. those who do not follow royalty, at least) as if she is 'lesser', when she meets her equivalents, of her same generation, in the future - when she would be just as 'consort' as queen letizia or queen mathilde.
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  #23  
Old 07-11-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
a out of wedlock son can inherit the nobility title from his father in netherland but the grandkids of the monarch will be commoners just because the title will be from their mothers not their fathers ?! i don't think so .
The children of Princess Christina (sister of Beatrix) didn't receive a title although they were grandchildren of the monarch (Queen Juliana).
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
No need to continue the archaic tradition of booting women out when they marry, and not treating their husband and kids as family.
I do not think the children of Princess Christina (who don't have a title), feel they are not part of the Orange Family or not treated as family.
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  #25  
Old 07-11-2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Hendrik-Jan77 View Post
I do not think the children of Princess Christina (who don't have a title), feel they are not part of the Orange Family or not treated as family.
I am not sure. They clearly log behind their royal cousins, the Orange-Nassaus and the De Bourbon de Parmes as well the Van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhovens. But the simple fact that they all live outside of the Netherlands can be a factor.
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  #26  
Old 07-11-2016, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I am not sure. They clearly log behind their royal cousins, the Orange-Nassaus and the De Bourbon de Parmes as well the Van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhovens. But the simple fact that they all live outside of the Netherlands can be a factor.
Do you really think that?
Family ties are shaped by blood ties and not by titles.
I do them not know personally but I always see great affection between the Orange, Van Vollenhoven, Bourbon Parme and Guillermo cousins at family gatherings.
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  #27  
Old 07-11-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I am not sure. They clearly log behind their royal cousins, the Orange-Nassaus and the De Bourbon de Parmes as well the Van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhovens. But the simple fact that they all live outside of the Netherlands can be a factor.
Do you really think that?
Family ties are shaped by blood ties and not by titles.
I do not know them personally but I always see great affection between the Orange, Van Vollenhoven, Bourbon Parme and Guillermo cousins at family gatherings.
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  #28  
Old 07-11-2016, 04:29 PM
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I can not look into the family relationships of the Guillermos but indeed, in comparison to the children of Princess Beatrix, Princess Irene and Princess Margriet, the children of Princess Christina and she herself seem less close knit but that can be a result of living overseas and the age difference.
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  #29  
Old 07-11-2016, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hendrik-Jan77 View Post
The children of Princess Christina (sister of Beatrix) didn't receive a title although they were grandchildren of the monarch (Queen Juliana).
princess christina renounced her and her descendants' rights to the throne before marrying Jorge Guillermo her children were born between 1977 - 1981
in 1977 crown princess victoria of sweden couldn't even hold the title Crown Princess and heir apparent in 1977 the netherland didn't had Absolute primogeniture till 1983
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  #30  
Old 07-12-2016, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
princess christina renounced her and her descendants' rights to the throne before marrying Jorge Guillermo her children were born between 1977 - 1981
in 1977 crown princess victoria of sweden couldn't even hold the title Crown Princess and heir apparent in 1977 the netherland didn't had Absolute primogeniture till 1983
Princess Christina did not renounce on itself. She simply engaged into marriage with Mr Jorge Guillermo and did so without requesting an Act of Consent. That was enough to loose her place in the succession. The same happened in the other marriages without an Act of Consent. In no any of these case there was a formal renounciation ("I, Johan Friso Christiaan Bernhard David, hereby declare out of free will, to renounce for myself and all my descendants....").
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  #31  
Old 07-12-2016, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Princess Christina did not renounce on itself. She simply engaged into marriage with Mr Jorge Guillermo and did so without requesting an Act of Consent. That was enough to loose her place in the succession. The same happened in the other marriages without an Act of Consent. In no any of these case there was a formal renounciation ("I, Johan Friso Christiaan Bernhard David, hereby declare out of free will, to renounce for myself and all my descendants....").
it's like someone saying i didn't cut myself i just pressed the knife willingly across my fingers !
u making it seams like she didn't knew that by marrying a Roman Catholic without requesting an Act of Consent she will have to renounce her and her descendants rights to the throne . and she did renounced her and her descendants rights to the throne before converting to Catholicism and officially announcing her engagement . her sister Princess Irene married the Catholic Carlos Hugo, Duke of Parma before her so she knew what she was getting herself into .
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  #32  
Old 07-12-2016, 04:28 AM
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I do not believe that the religion was in any way involved in either matter, though perhaps in public perception it was.

Princess Irene married a pretender to a foreign throne. That is why the government did not want to support it.

In the case of Princess Christina: it was her own wish not to ask for permission.
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  #33  
Old 07-19-2016, 11:29 AM
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The second and fourth daughter of Queen Juliana married without an Act of Consent. The third and fourth son of Princess Margriet as well the second son of Queen Beatrix went the same way. Technically the Constitution has no possibility for a successor to renounce his or her rights.
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2016, 11:41 AM
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I do not believe that the religion was in any way involved in either matter, though perhaps in public perception it was.

Princess Irene married a pretender to a foreign throne. That is why the government did not want to support it.

In the case of Princess Christina: it was her own wish not to ask for permission.
True...allthough,in the 60's there still was a HUGE outcry by the then protestant churchgoers especially,a Princess of the protestant Dutch RF marrying a Roman Catholic?Really...it was a shocker of sorts to many of them.

And the Dutch saying: "Twee geloven op een kussen daar slaapt de duivel tussen " was heard more then once (sorry,I fail to translate at this point)..

Little did people know at the time that our RF,from Wilhelmina down,were not exactly so frugally tied up to a Faith,they had a broader,much broader mind then was known,or to be accepted,even at that time.
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Koningin View Post
I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel :) And who know, maybe Alexia will marry prince Christian ?

No-one really cares,and more...it's on nobodies mind,too far in the future.
All the Dutch care for is happiness for all so including any member of the RF!
And f they would come home with anyone they love then that is what counts,may that be a cute kid or a cute gall.This is NL so nothing is out of the ordinary nor a real shocker.Let all follow their heart.
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2016, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Koningin View Post
And if king Willem Alexander abdicate he and Máxima return to prince and princess of the Netherlands ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is even vested in Law:

Act of 30th May 2002 on the (membership of the) Royal House


Article 8, first part:

De vermoedelijke opvolger van de Koning en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden.

The presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

Article 9, first part:

De Koning, diens vermoedelijke opvolger en de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan, dragen de titel Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau.

The King, his presumed successor, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau.

As far as I can tell, the Act on the Membership of the Royal House does not preclude the former monarch from continuing the title of King (Queen) on top of the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The heir also bears the last two titles in conjunction with the title Prince(ss) of Orange.

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I hope Amalia will marry Prince Gabriel :)
It would be illegal in Belgium.
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  #37  
Old 07-20-2016, 01:34 AM
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But it probably wouldn't be illegal in the Netherlands.

The point of that article is to list silly laws that are still on the books. I doubt that in this day and age Belgium hates the Netherlands the way it did in the early 19th century when the law was written and they could get rid of this law if need be.
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  #38  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:07 AM
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Not that I think we will ever see such a royal marriage, it is a Belgian law. Since Amalia is heir, they would marry in the Netherlands where that isn't the law. If the law was an issue, Gabe would simply have to renounce his place in thee Belgium royal family. As he would be joining thee DRF anyways, that would be little issue.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:42 PM
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As far as I can tell, the Act on the Membership of the Royal House does not preclude the former monarch from continuing the title of King (Queen) on top of the titles Prince(ss) of the Netherlands and Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The heir also bears the last two titles in conjunction with the title Prince(ss) of Orange.



It would be illegal in Belgium.
The Explanatory Memorandum and the Advice of the Council of State are always attached to a Bill. In the Memorandum can be read that the practice as developed since 1900 needed codification in the legislation.

In the Memorandum is explained that the King can not be Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands. The two titles bite each other. When in the Act is stated that the presumed successor of the King, as well the King who has abdicated the kingship bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, then this is clear.

Add to this the examples set by three consecutive predecessors of the current King, then King Willem-Alexander will revert to the style he had before being the King or the Heir. Like his mother Beatrix, his grandmother Juliana and his great-grandmother Wilhelmina: they form "the existing practice which needs codification in the legislation".
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  #40  
Old 07-20-2016, 02:20 PM
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The Explanatory Memorandum attached to the Royal House Act made clear that the lawmaker sees the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands as "a functional title". The title can only be used by members of the Royal House (that is why Prince Friso lost it in 2004) together with the membership.

The Explanatory memorandum also made a difference in members which regularly exercise the royal function and members which never or only incidentally will do so. The Explanatory Memorandum explained that the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands is for life and should ideally only be used for members who indeed are so their life long. This group is largely covered by the Act Financial Statute Royal House: the present King, the former King, the future King and their spouses.

The Explanatory Memorandum sees the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau as a title of the royal dynasty. It is the recommendation of the lawmaker to keep the titles Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau more ore less on the same track. This title implies a close bond to the person of the Sovereign. That is why Prince Friso remained Prince of Orange-Nassau. He left the Royal House but of course remained a son of the Sovereign, a prince of the royal dynasty.

His daughters Luana and Zaria are no members of the Royal House and, like their cousins Eloïse, Claus-Casimir and Eleonore, and are -like them- not so close related to the Sovereign (Willem-Alexander is an uncle, Catharina-Amalia is a cousin). Therefore the wish to create another title for them: Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. That title is hereditary according the rules of the Netherlands nobility system.

Overseeing this: it is unlikely a spouse of Princess Alexia or Princess Ariane will become Prince of the Netherlands or Prince of Orange-Nassau. Pieter van Vollenhoven, Laurentien Brinkhorst, Marilène van den Broek and Annette Sekrève did not acquire any nobility or title due to their marriages to a member of the Royal House.
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