Was 'The Oval' in Althorp the right place to bury Diana?

[Panicgrl]

We simply can't be sure. We can't be sure of anything. She could have been buried in the Hard Rock Cafe Orlando for all we know. People want a shrine, the Spencers give them a shrine. Far worse things have been covered up that an empty tomb.

I live in Orlando, I can assure you she's not here, but you gave me a giggle!

 

[Elspeth]

Hence why I think my great-grandmother had the right idea. She was buried in her wedding dress and my great-grandfather said it was so they ended their marriage as they'd begun it - with her looking radiant. Quite romantic. Then again I'm not an Earl (I may be an old Queen but I'm not an Earl) and I would have better taste.

Not everybody can fit into their wedding dress at the time they die, you know! The Queen Mum would have had a bit of trouble, for one thing.

Anyway, it was really nice to see the display of wedding dresses from Queen Victoria's to Queen Elizabeth's at Kensington Palace a few years ago, which wouldn't have been possible if they'd been buried in them; it's just a shame that Diana's wasn't there as well.

 

[scooter]

That is unlikely. There are formal requirements regarding funerals, at least there are at the Continent and I can not imagine it is different on the British Isles across the Channel. For an example an official record must be made by the authorities, etc.

You are implying that various civil servants involved with the burial of the late Diana, including the staff of the funerary enterprise, the Vicar of the local parish, etc. say A but in reality know that it B. And that they have succesfully kept it secret for 10 years. And it would also imply The Earl Spencer is selling tickets for visitors to see an empty grave and that the two sons are okay with it.

No, we simply can be sure that the remains of the late Diana are buried on ancestral ground, on that little island indeed.

No Henri, I am not 'implying it' I am suggesting that it might well be the case. I think that Charles Spencer could have asked the vicar etc to 'help his martyred sister have eternal rest with her ancestors' without danger of the loons, whether those that loved her or hated her, from desecrating her grave. I think, given the mood at the time, that there is very little that would have been refused the family. And there were,of course, no witnesses to the 'private' interrment.

 

[ysbel]

I think William was asked to put on the mantle of adulthood enough when his mother was alive and she depended upon his emotional support and advice for situations far beyond his young years.

I don't think it would have been appropriate to burden William and Harry so soon after their mother's death with decisions on how to conduct their mother's burial and dispose of her property seeing that they were the tender ages of 16 and 14.

 

[scooter]

Wasn't Harry barely 13?

 

[ysbel]

Wasn't Harry barely 13?

You're right. Harry was not yet 13 and William had just turned 15. Too young to make decisions about their mother's burial.

 

[GillW]

No Henri, I am not 'implying it' I am suggesting that it might well be the case. I think that Charles Spencer could have asked the vicar etc to 'help his martyred sister have eternal rest with her ancestors' without danger of the loons, whether those that loved her or hated her, from desecrating her grave. I think, given the mood at the time, that there is very little that would have been refused the family. And there were,of course, no witnesses to the 'private' internment.

Of course there were witnesses - there were pallbearers who transported & lowered the coffin into the army-prepared grave. There were the family who accompanied it to the island and all the estate staff who saw that happen.

Since media interest was present at the exits of the estate for a good period following hte funeral any possible movement of a coffin could not have gone unnoticed. The church at Gt Brington is very close to the estate, very small, and the whole village would easily have known that the sealed underground Spencer family vault had been disturbed.


If we back track further - there are those who say she was "secretly cremated" (in the family oven, or on a bonfire, maybe... ) and her ashes added to the vault - same thing, it would need opening & resealing...

We have witnesses who visited her lying at rest in London up to the evening prior to the funeral, in buildings surrounded permanently by thousands of mourning public, so she was still there until the funeral left. The coffin was carried by soldiers, one of whom was the nephew of a friend of mine, who assures me they were not carrying an empty coffin. From the Abbey, the world watched every inch of the way of the drive to Althorp.

If anyone suggests Diana was not present in the coffin at her own funeral you're also asking us to believe that her young sons were either deceived that she was there or complicit in a cover up - neither of which I find credible.

I believe she IS buried on the island and I believe too that she will remain there AND that it is the best place for her possibly to be.

 

[Henri M.]

No Henri, I am not 'implying it' I am suggesting that it might well be the case. I think that Charles Spencer could have asked the vicar etc to 'help his martyred sister have eternal rest with her ancestors' without danger of the loons, whether those that loved her or hated her, from desecrating her grave. I think, given the mood at the time, that there is very little that would have been refused the family. And there were,of course, no witnesses to the 'private' interrment.

The Vicar and the church's verger should then be aware of this burial in the Saint Mary The Virgin Church in Great Brington. A local contractor would have been hired to remove the marble plates of the Spencer mausoleum and create a space for the coffin to be interred (and then to close the grave again).

The people from the funerary enterprise who were the pallbearers and place the coffin into its resting place would have witnessed it as well.

And the locals of Great Brington (a few hundred) who live in a very small community must have known about activities going on in their church. With vans outside, a dig machine. Police. A hearse and royals. It is impossible that this could have gone unnoticed and remained secret for 10 years. And that in a country where The Mirror, The Sun and their equivalents can not wait to bribe the people involved and to scream the truth from the headlines....

 

[Christo's Girl]

Diana said specifically that she wanted to be buried. Even though this was her wish I sometimes think it would have been nice if she had chosen cremation. That way William and Harry could have kept her ashes where ever they wanted.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Or she could have gone down the Queen Marie of Romania road who had her heart buried in one palace and had her body buried in another.

 

[selrahc4]

Or she could have gone down the Queen Marie of Romania road who had her heart buried in one palace and had her heart buried in another.

Wow, an extra one. Truly a "Queen of Hearts".

 

[BeatrixFan]

Body in one, heart in another. Unless she was Vulcan. Which I don't think she was.

 

[love_cc]

If Prince William and Prince Harry want to move Diana's tomb, it is their decision. I think Althorp is a good choice because it has enough room for people to gather and meomorize Diana apart from royal family members.Earl Spencer does have a musuem for Diana, doesn't he ? I don't think Althorp is a very lonely or isolated place,it was what Sarah Bradford and Tina Brown wanted to color the isolation and loneliness of Diana's life. I would use quietness to descirbe Althorp. It is a private place which is good.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I doubt they'd move her. Though it depends on the form in which was buried. Was she buried buried or cremated and then buried? The latter becomes difficult if the remains have been taken out of the urn but some people bury the urn which is easy to move. If she was buried then it'd mean exhumation, putting her in a new coffin and then a mini-funeral to transport and relocate. It's possible but the logistics maybe would distress too many people.

 

[TheTruth]

I doubt they'd move her. Though it depends on the form in which was buried. Was she buried buried or cremated and then buried? The latter becomes difficult if the remains have been taken out of the urn but some people bury the urn which is easy to move. If she was buried then it'd mean exhumation, putting her in a new coffin and then a mini-funeral to transport and relocate. It's possible but the logistics maybe would distress too many people.

I think she was only buried BeatrixFan. Exhumation is a weird process. I don't think William and Harry would take this decision. Even if the relationship with the Spencer is not very good, they are always welcomed at Althorp IMO.
Does anyone know for sure if they returned there after the funeral (I'm sure they did but can't remember reading it anywhere) ?

 

[Roslyn]

Oh, goodness! I find the idea of digging bodies up and shifting them about quite distasteful! Mind you, I find the idea of burying them in the first place distasteful; I think cremation and scattering the ashes is a much better idea. But I know lots of people prefer burial and abhor cremation.

The way I see it, the poor woman is dead and has been for a long time. She only lives on in people's hearts and memories and books, and that occurs where the people are who are doing the remembering or reading, not where she was buried. But then I come from a family that doesn't visit graves.

I think they should be allowed to stay where she was first interred. A lot of thought went into where she would be laid to rest at the time when it mattered.

 

[BeatrixFan]

It isn't new where Royals are concerned though. Even now, there are plans by Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia to exhume and rebury his father. It happens quite alot as sometimes country situations change or people feel decisions were too hasty when the person died. For example, if the UK became a Republic, the bodies of members of the Royal Family might be moved from Frogmore to one of the family owned estates.

 

[sirhon11234]

The government could actually do that. Why?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, I was just using it as an example but when a Royal Family is deposed, it's sometimes their decision to relocate and to relocate recently deceased members of the family or vice versa. For example, Crown Prince Alexander has been allowed to return and to take residence in a Royal Palace so he's now moving his father from America to Serbia. But it can work the other way. If King William and Queen Whoever moved to France in exile, he might choose to relocate his mother to their estate there. In the event that he stayed in the UK, he'd be entitled to Sandringham and Balmoral when Windsor etc was made state property (real state property that is). If it happened tomorrow, the Queen may choose to have her father, mother and sister exhumed and reburied in a family mausoleum in the grounds of Balmoral. So it's entirely possible for Royal bodies to be moved around and happened alot in the last century as a result of so many Royal Families being deposed. Of course, it all depends on how amicable the parting is.

 

[TheTruth]

Oh, goodness! I find the idea of digging bodies up and shifting them about quite distasteful! Mind you, I find the idea of burying them in the first place distasteful;

Yes, I agree. By the way, according to the several assassination theories surrounding her death, I'm surprised that not one crazy police inspector came up with the idea of exhumation. That process is often done when the death of someone, especially in criminal cases, is doubtful or another autopsy has to be made.

 

[GillW]

I doubt they'd move her. Though it depends on the form in which was buried. Was she buried buried or cremated and then buried? The latter becomes difficult if the remains have been taken out of the urn but some people bury the urn which is easy to move. If she was buried then it'd mean exhumation, putting her in a new coffin and then a mini-funeral to transport and relocate. It's possible but the logistics maybe would distress too many people.

Her body was buried on the island in a lead lined coffin - NO cremation as per her specific request.

It's not that easy under English law to get and exhumation order...I suppose if you happen to be the King (William) it might be a bit easier, but I still can't feel that he would ever disturb her remains.

 

[GillW]

I think she was only buried BeatrixFan. Exhumation is a weird process. I don't think William and Harry would take this decision. Even if the relationship with the Spencer is not very good, they are always welcomed at Althorp IMO.
Does anyone know for sure if they returned there after the funeral (I'm sure they did but can't remember reading it anywhere) ?

I assume you mean in the years since the funeral rather than immediately following the funeral (when they certainlly were there) It has been reported that Harry has been several times to visit, William less frequently. The visits are kept private and "out of season" to avoid the public visitors.

 

[TheTruth]

I assume you mean in the years since the funeral rather than immediately following the funeral (when they certainlly were there) It has been reported that Harry has been several times to visit, William less frequently. The visits are kept private and "out of season" to avoid the public visitors.

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for the info . At least when they go over there, they can't be disturbed by people. That's quite an advantage.

 

[TheTruth]

It's not that easy under English law to get and exhumation order...I suppose if you happen to be the King (William) it might be a bit easier, but I still can't feel that he would ever disturb her remains.

Yes, I believe that also. Here's a PDF document on laws in the UK, concerning burial with a part on 'Exhumation and disturbance after burial'
http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/burial-law-policy.pdf

It seems quite complicated to get the authorisation to do such process.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Body in one, heart in another. Unless she was Vulcan. Which I don't think she was.

The Habsburgs used to be buried in three parts: the heart in the Church of the Court St. Augustin, the rest of the intestines in the Cathedral of St. Stephan and the body in the crypt of the Capucine Church.

 

[scooter]

I actually just read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth's father was not interred until 17 years after his death. Does anyone know if that's true? Aparantly the Duke of Windsor was not allowed to come because of the whole Wallis issue.

 

[GillW]

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for the info . At least when they go over there, they can't be disturbed by people. That's quite an advantage.

Plus they can use the boat and really go and sit where they know the exact spot where she actually lies (very few people know that) in absolute privacy.

 

[sesa]

I truely hope that William or anyone else for that matter, never disturbe her remains. Hopefully she is at piece with her privacy and solitude.
I'm glad that they buried her out of the "spot light" so to speak.
Only family and hopefully close friends will be able to vist her, which is what she really wanted to begin with.
I think that if they had buried her where the public could visit, there would be people who would try to do something stupid to her grave. Either out of love for her (to have a part of her to remember her or to sell) or if someone disliked her, they would probably try to desecrate her grave or headstone or whatever.
So for reasons like this, I'm glad she is where she is.

 

[selrahc4]

I actually just read somewhere that Queen Elizabeth's father was not interred until 17 years after his death. Does anyone know if that's true? Aparantly the Duke of Windsor was not allowed to come because of the whole Wallis issue.

From the Hugo Vickers biography of the Queen Mother:

Consideration was now [1968] given to the final resting place of King George VI, and, when the time came, of Queen Elizabeth [Queen Mother] herself. Since his funeral in 1952, the King's coffin had lain in the Royal Vault underneath St George's Chapel. Now it was decided that the King needed a special burial place. ...
In 1968 work began on the King George VI Memorial Chapel. ...
In March 1969, the Royal Vault was opened and the King's coffin brought up and placed in the new tomb. On 31 March the Royal Family and the Knights of the Garter gathered for the dedication service. The Duke of Windsor did not come from Paris, though he was invited...

 

[Roslyn]

When coffins lie in a vault, I think they are just set on a slab or in an outer sarcophagus. If this is the case, they are not really buried, so I don't have a problem with moving them later. I think the practice is fairly gross, mind you, but it's not the same as digging the coffin up and then burying it somewhere else.........and certainly nowhere near as bad as what those Habsburgs did.