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  #261  
Old 07-26-2016, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Denville may I ask why you think Diana panicked when the letter saying they must divorce was sent? I haven't read Diana books in years and I don't know of any indication that she was in panic mode when she realized it was over.

On another note, do you guys think the Queen would have gone the divorce route if Diana had questioned Charles ability to be king?
I haven't got exact quotes but(AFAICR) she wrote back to say that she didn't understand the letter from the queen, and I think she was partly trying to stall to get a better financial deal, but i think that it was also that seh realised now she was getting out of the RF, but it problaby didn't feel like "freedom".
She must have realised by then that the queen was thoroughly fed up with her, so were most of the RF and a lot of her own class of people would disapprove. She told Pat J that he would be proud of her when he saw the TV programme but of course he was horrified because he had been trying to keep Diana as "in a friendly relationship" with the RF, still working with the queen's backing and the interview completely ruined hopes of that policy working... so I think she was beginning to realise that she was getting what she thought she wanted, a divorce, but Charles was not likely really to lose HIS place in the succession, and that her in laws esp the queen were now really going to be hostile to her..
I think that even without questioning C's being King, the queen knew that they had to divorce. The very fact that Di had managed to do the interview, behind her back, showed that in Royal terms they simply coudl not trust her, that she was a loose cannon and I think taht as Curry says, while the queen is very reluctant to intervene, she had reached the realisation that now she HAD to do something because the situation was out of control..
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  #262  
Old 07-26-2016, 07:28 PM
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The Panorama interview was puzzling and full of mixed messages. Diana talked about how she was bulimic because of her environment and she talked about her unfaithful marriage (on both sides). She talked about how she was misunderstood and how members of the Royal Family were envious of her and how she was stronger than the other royal women, etc. etc.; and then she said that she didn't want a divorce. In other words, she was saying that her life was miserable but she didn't want to leave it. It was all very confusing.
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  #263  
Old 07-26-2016, 07:45 PM
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I think she didn't want a divorce because she wanted to keep her position (and I don't think she really cared about being the Queen, it was more about the 'job' she was doing) and sense of security.

That said, she wanted the freedom to move on in her personal life and I don't think that was possible as long as she was married. I think it likely she was pretty torn about what she wanted.


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  #264  
Old 07-26-2016, 08:27 PM
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I think you are right, Pranter. I think Diana was extremely torn about what she wanted. Her mood probably changed from day to day, even hour to hour. She wanted her freedom and yet she still wanted the structure of the life that she had known since she was twenty, the life as Princess of Wales.

She was probably full of all sorts of emotions following the interview, a mixture of pride, excitement and anxiety about what she had done, a realisation that things would never be the same again and that perhaps a move might be made to separate her from her boys, a 'damn them all' attitude followed by lots of 'Oh God, what have I done!'

I think that interview was the gravest mistake of Diana's life and I still don't know why she did it, but at least it was the means of finally ending a terrible marriage.
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  #265  
Old 07-26-2016, 08:41 PM
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Yes, the interview was a very big mistake. She put herself in the firing line. She3 didn't get good advice on this.
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  #266  
Old 07-26-2016, 09:41 PM
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I think when Charles gave an interview and made the statements he did she couldn't bear to not respond. It wasn't well done of either of them...neither one should of happened.

They weren't thinking of how this would effect the BRF or their children (forever) when they did it. I think they were so caught up in the 'battle' they couldn't see the forrest for the trees.



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  #267  
Old 07-27-2016, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
The Panorama interview was puzzling and full of mixed messages. other royal women, etc. etc.; and then she said that she didn't want a divorce. In other words, she was saying that her life was miserable but she didn't want to leave it. It was all very confusing.
well yes and No. I think like anyone with a bad marriage, she had mixed feelings. yes she wanted to end it, in some ways, but in other ways, she didn't want to. I think given her background, having believed that this marriage was for life, believed very deeply that she wanted a loving marriage with kids and that that was her way of fulfilling herself, its hardly surprising that she didn't want to end it. She didn't want to be the one who said "I want a divorce" when she knew that her sons would be unhappy with the formal ending of the marriage.
And I can understand that she did not want to give up her position. She had worked to do a good job as Princess, (in spite of what some people seem to think) and she did not want to give up that work.. or that position. She probably felt that her marriage would have worked had she not had the misfortune to meet a man who was in love with another woman.. (not entirely fair to Charles but from her POV, I can see why she felt like that). She knew she would not be queen, but she was trying to sort out some position where she kept SOME bits of her job and the status that went with it...
And I think that she was scared fo the unknown. SHe hoped if she got a divorce, she would be happier but I think by the time of Panorama, she was half afraid that things would not work out so well.. she would perhaps be alienated from her sons' family, and from many of her class of people.. She might not meet a nice man, or have another marriage...and she had lived all her adult life, nearly in the RF, it ws goig to be hard to leave all that...

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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Yes, the interview was a very big mistake. She put herself in the firing line. She3 didn't get good advice on this.
I believe she did get advice. But didn't listen. Friends told her not to do anythting so explosive because they knew it would be "endgame", that she'd cheese of the RF so badly that there would be "nothing left". But I think she was determined to make a response to Chas...I think esp perhaps she wanted to hit out about his admitting to his affair with Camilla.. perhaps she felt that she wanted to make it clear to him and the public that she had not gone unloved and unconsoled, while he was with Cam...
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  #268  
Old 07-27-2016, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I believe she did get advice. But didn't listen. Friends told her not to do anythting so explosive because they knew it would be "endgame", that she'd cheese of the RF so badly that there would be "nothing left". But I think she was determined to make a response to Chas...I think esp perhaps she wanted to hit out about his admitting to his affair with Camilla.. perhaps she felt that she wanted to make it clear to him and the public that she had not gone unloved and unconsoled, while he was with Cam...
Sarah Bradford, in "Diana", at page 292 of the paperback version, records that Diana consulted David Puttnam, Clive James and David Attenborough about doing the Panorama interview. Each of them told her not to do it, and she gave each of them the impression that she would take their advice on the matter. Clive James told her that she'd be mad to do it. "I counselled her against it. I said that if that happened the two camps thing would go nuclear, and continue until there was nothing left. She would be on the run forever and there would be nowhere to go ... She seemed convinced, but of course she was pretending. She had already decided."

Bradford said (page 293), "Several things moved Diana to take the fatal step of the Panorama interview: her longing to put her case to the people over the heads of her 'enemies' in the Establishment; her love of publicity on her own terms; her intrinsic belief in the rightness of her own instinct even over all the wise opinions she had been given by people who had only her interests at heart; her determination to counter allegations of Borderline Personality Disorder; and lastly, and, least attractively if understandably, the desire for vengeance. This was evident in her instructions to the BBC over when to release the news of the broadcast. On Diana's specific instruction the BBC released their press announcement on 14 November, an unwelcome forty-seventh birthday surprise for Charles, on an official visit to Tokyo."

The night before the interview aired, Diana phoned "one of her mother figures" (whose name Bradford does not disclose) and said to her, "I've done the most wonderful interview, I've put everything right". She asked her to watch it and tell her what she thought in the morning. She watched it, and 'it was so frightful I - literally - was thinking I"m never going to be able to stand up for her again because it's so frightful, the Panorama thing." She told Diana that she wasn't mad about it "and Diana was furious ... I said it was a frightful mistake, and she didn't like that at all, she hated being criticized. But it was appalling, it was like a total error of judgement."
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  #269  
Old 07-27-2016, 06:03 PM
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Exactly. All the advice she had was against doing it. And while it wasn't a good idea I thought at the time that she did it very well and that if she had a game plan for getting out of the RF, she did at least achieve that, and she still had a lot of support from people, esp women.
But I think in the long term, it didn't do her any good. It made the RF, and the upper classes mostly, think she was a crazy person.. and it did drive her out of the RF. It didn't affect Charles' position, I think that maybe she hoped it would... that people would press for him to give up his place marry Cam and leave the job.. But that didn't happen.. Diana was the one who ended up leaving and I'm not suer that she was able to cope with life outside the protected cage fo the RF..
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  #270  
Old 07-30-2016, 05:13 AM
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Yes,
I certainly don't think she realised the consequences of her Panorama interview. At that time though, I think Diana was just burning up with misery and resentment and dislike of BP and all it stood for and that overrode everything. It was only later she awoke to the cold light of reality, that she really had burned her bridges.
I AGree. I dont think she did anything very consciously in the War.. She was eitherr hurt or angry and hit out. I used to beleive that she had a game plan for the whole thing, that she had Oked the Morton book and then the Interview, as a way of pushing for a divorce..That perhaps the Morton book had not worked.. it had gotten her a separation but not full freedom.. so she went further. But now I think it was all done on instinct and that the instinctive hitting out was foolish and did her no favours.
I think that seh DID want to say she'd had an affair, because she was hurt at Charles' admittng that HE had had an affair...She felt angry that she,as a beautiful woman, had her husband saying in effect that he had never really been in love with her and that he had been seeing another woman for years, whom he preferred. IMO that was one reason for her wanting to go further than the book and do a TV interview and actually say "I had an affair too, Even if C doesn't care for me -there are men who did...."
and I think on an unconscious level she just felt that she had to do something more dramatic, to get the RF to let her go... but she didn't want to say formally that she wanted a divorce..She wanted THEM to ask her for a divorce and I think that's what happened.. She had cheesed them off so much that they were positively eager to get rid of her, and so she could ask for more money etc.
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  #271  
Old 07-30-2016, 05:35 AM
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I think this sums things up very well. I think Diana's instinct ruled here, Charles had done his interview and she wanted to do hers. The fact that she sought advice on it with several people is interesting - everyone told her not to do it, but all along she felt she wanted or had to do it.

Many people seek advice hoping that the advice given to them is in line with their own initial thoughts - when the advice is the opposite to what they would like it to be, well you go back to basics and forge ahead regardless.
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  #272  
Old 07-30-2016, 06:30 AM
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I think that Diana was at her lowest point in 1995 and she was not thinking straight. By then her marriage had been over in all but name for several years, and she had had that four or five year affair with Hewitt, and she and Charles were separated, but she still hadn't come to terms with that fact and moved on and carved out a life for herself within the constraints of the job she had married into and the limitations it imposed.

I suppose that having to go about her duties in those five or so years after the rot had set in but when they still had to pretend in public would take a toll on any but the strongest individual. I think that by the time they separated in 1992 things should have been settling down somewhat, but they seemed to get worse for Diana. I think at the time of the separation they should both have had some intensive and serious counselling to help them be kind to each other, or at least civil, for both their sakes and especially for the sake of the children. Perhaps they did, but from what we read about Diana after that time, any counselling they had doesn't seem to have done her much good.

Diana seemed to have her own reality and it didn't match anyone else's. 1995 was the time she wrote that memo about thinking Charles wanted to get her out of the way so he could marry Tiggy. Tiggy, not Camilla. This was the year she confronted Tiggy at a Christmas party and told her she was sorry about the baby. This was the sort of thing that was in her mind when she did that Panorama interview. She wasn't thinking or acting rationally. I think she was in a very bad way and needed professional help but she didn't get it. Based on what I have read about her I believe she was dead set against taking advice if she didn't like it. So what could anyone do? You can't force someone to consult a psychologist if they are not willing to participate. Unless she was demonstrating behaviour that indicated she was a danger to herself or others there was nothing anyone could do to force her to seek help.
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  #273  
Old 07-30-2016, 07:53 AM
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I think that Diana was at her lowest point in 1995 and she was not thinking straight. had doesn't seem to have done her much good.

her to seek help.
I think most of us are the same about advice,. We ask for it but we don't take it unless it is what we already want to do. Chas seems to have been the same bout his friends and Di. if they did speak up to him (I am not sure they really did), , he clearly ignored it because he was keen to marry and I think he was attracted to Di enough to make himself believe she was the ideal wife...
I agree though that by the early 90s Diana was in a worse state... that she was a bit out of it, psychologically. She did need serious counselling but she was in such a state of depression and perhaps paranoia that she was not I'd say able to profit from therapy... I think those years of isolation, of feeling miserable with C, having the affair with Hewitt which had ended badly and fearing that she could not trust him to keep quiet. And she must have feared that if stories of any other affairs got out, it might really damage her standing with the public... all of that, got to her and she was a bit crazy. I use the word loosely. I don’t think she was off her head but she was not rational a lot of the time. She said those stupid things to Tiggy, feared that C was going to get rid of her to marry Tiggy...
Yet -in a way WAS she so crazy? So many people she confided in DID let her down...
And it wasn’t going to be easy to start a new life... Who was going to marry the former Princess Of wales? How was she to go back to being Lady Di Spencer? The nicest man she met, Khan, loved her but not enough to marry her... She had I think fought to get out of the RF, but then found that it was a pretty scary cold place. She was now a problem to the RF, and they would not really rush to defend her if people treated her with less than respect...
That’s why I feel she would have been better to live with the situation, put up with Charles seeing Cam and just get on with her own life. She was a beautiful woman, she might have preferred a husband but I think she would have found admirers, and had she stuck to her own class, I’m sure she would have found men who would know how to be discreet, and not rat her out to the papers.
I think the fighting to get out of the RF did send her a bit crazy and the finding herself outside, was just as scary and I’m not sure she really knew how she was going to live her life, as a divorced princess…
In a way, outing Charles did HIM a favour, in the long run. He had his ladyfriend. He was happy with Cam and once the public got used to the idea (it did take time), he was still POW and was likely to be free in due course to marry the woman he loved… but Di had gone into an alien environment at 20, was tied to them forever in a way because of her boys, but had to learn to grow up, in public, but OUTSIDE that cage she had beene in all her adult life.

I am not sure when Di was seeing Susie Orbach but it was early 90s I think. but that was possibly for help with her eating issues... I think she needed a combination fo marriage guidance (to help with the split form Charles) and one ot one therapy for herself.. but I dont think she was getting it. According ot some staff she was seeing different people, crystal jugglers, astrologists etc etc, and that she was in effect seeing too many people who weren't qualified and who weren't really doing her any good..and that she would say to each one "Oh you made me feel so much better" but it woud not really be true and she's be seeing someone else or moving on to another "guru" before long. And in the 90s she had less to occupy herself..the boys were at school, her marriage was officially over, and she wasn't doing a full programme of work...so she had too much time ot be alone and get herself into a state...
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  #274  
Old 07-30-2016, 09:10 AM
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A marriage break up is terribly difficult for anyone not wanting it and especially with young children involved.

Add to the mix you're the most famous woman in the world, the one every photographer wants to snap off guard (worth a fortune) and your soon to be ex husband is going to be (unless fate steps in) the next King of England, complete with mistress! (didn't they almost all?)

And everytime you step outside the door a smile expected to be planted on your face; because you had the fairytale.
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  #275  
Old 07-30-2016, 04:11 PM
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True Dee Anna. She had things that the average divorced single mum hasn't got but she also had pressures that they haven't got. And she was a fragile person, mentally. I think when things were OK with her, and she had support she got on OK and wasn't too wobbly, but as the stress in her life mounted and she had lost a lot of her support, she did crack a bit. And the RF and their minions were not really on her side once she wanted out of the family.. she cut back her work, and her staff, trying to be more independent, and to give herself more time to do soemthing she enjoyed, but in practice that made things wrorse.
She found it hard to go on with work, I think that as she lost her more professional helpers like Jephson etc, and relied more on the "friends and staff who were sychophanitc" like Burrell, she found it harder to find work she enjoyed and could cope with. and her sons were at school or visitng their father's family, so she was lonelier...
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