Charles and Diana

[Denville]

I tuldn't have known how far from the norm (for her strata of society) her life was, Charles likely had no idea at all of how she'd lived...

And it seems they all just sort of assumed that because they socialized in a similar way at certain functions then their home lives and general expectations would be compatible enough.

I dont know if her life was that differnet as a young girl to other upper class children, esp if there had been a divorce in the family, which was common enough by then. TIna Brown states that she felt the RF didn't understand that so many upper class families didn't live in the same formal way that had been common for them earlier, big fancy house parties, servants rigidly behind the Green baize door, dressing up and eating formally etc. Di's immediate family hadn't been "couriters" for a while, because her father's divorce had made him more reclusive and he was content to stay at home and not to force a formal lifestyle on the children... and they had all been to boarding school... and then lived in flats and looked after themselves..
So I think she was out of touch with the almost Edwardian way the RF lived, and some upper class families who were closest to them.
I think that many other upper class girls who might have married Charles mgiht have been a bit taken aback by how rigid and old fashioned was the RF lifestyle, but I htink that Diana was not very adaptable. She was already bulimic and stressed out and unsure if her marriage was the right thing, and the formal lifestyle really took her by surprise and she coudln't/didn't want to adapt to it. (So a lot of stories have emerged about her unhappiness with "family social life" in the first years of her marriage. among them one that the queen said soemthing on the lines of "I dont care if its hard for her, she has to just buck up and learn to fit in...") Perhaps another similarly aged upper class bride mihgt have also found the formality a surprise and hard to cope with but might not have shown their unhappiness so openly and would have tried harder to adapt.

Nowadays, Kate and WIlliam are allowed to be more flexible about joining the RF for Christmas etc, they have lived together in Wales in a more simple way than was possible at the time for Charles and Diana, and Camilla keeps a separate house so that she can be more informal and relaxed iwth her children and grandchildren...

 

[Dee Anna]

Possibly, but Diana was also living, from even before the outset, with the uncomfortable fact that was Camilla.

Nowadays, different situation, William steers his own course, so Kate while enjoying all the trappings of royalty has Christmas with her own family.

Nothing wrong in that either; but they do need to understand what being Royal is.

 

[Osipi]

Its kind of a waste of energy to compare one royal marriage, the way they lived and the way the marriage was and how they conducted their lives both public and private to anyone else regardless of who they are be it Elizabeth and Philip or Zara and Mike or William and Kate.

Different couples have different dynamics that make them who they are and that's how they should be seen. How Charles and Diana conducted their Christmas holidays actually does not have any bearing on how William and Kate conduct theirs today. Times change, people change, family dynamics change and (gasp) even the monarchy changes.

Charles and Diana were. William and Kate are. Simple.

 

[Pranter]

Not to mention Diana's family structure was very different from what Kate's is. Not sure Diana was chomping at the bit to go off and spend Christmas with her dad and Raine ..or her mother (who left her) and her husband.


LaRae

 

[Dee Anna]

Even if she had been it wouldn't have happened. Christmas was all part of being a working Royal, the Spencers weren't part of it.

William stated from the outset that the Middletons would play a major role in his family's life and we have seen plenty to support that.

I wouldn't be surprised if a new "tradition" has just started, where Christmas Day is celebrated with both sets of family on alternate years.

 

[Denville]

Even if she had been it wouldn't have happened. Christmas was all part of being a working Royal, the Spencers weren't part of it.

William stated from the outset that the Middletons would play a major role in his family's life and we have seen plenty to support that.

I wouldn't be surprised if a new "tradition" has just started, where Christmas Day is celebrated with both sets of family on alternate years.

Yes I think that it is a change which flowed from the disaster of Diana's marraige.. well several changes. one was the social change that most couples now live together or have a sexual rerlationship prior to marriage, and that includes royals.. so at least they have a chance to get to know each other better nad to see if they are sexually compatible (not that that stops divorces)...
But I think the RF has consciously changed how tehy do things a lot, becuase of Diana and Sarah. That now new brides are given a few years to play themselves in to royal duties, rather than a sudden plunge in, as happened with her and was traumatic for her.
Also, while Di wasn't perhaps all that close to her own family, she found the being expected to spend a lot of time now in private with the RF, going to shootng parties, Balmoral every year, Christmas with the RF etc daunting and the formality of their lifestyle was very difficult for her IMO and again Kate and other younger royals now are able to spend more time wit their own families, they dont have to embrace the RF as their "ONly" relatives and they are not expected to lead such a formal Edwardian style private life, just because the queen and Philip live like that.
It isn't just Kate who benefits. Camilla has her own house to invite her children to, and other royals dont always have to go to the Christmas with the Royals every year...

 

[eya]

"People have been talking about a picture of Prince Charles and Princess Diana.
Years later, and a man called Philip Cohen has pointed out an interesting observation: Prince Charles is a head taller than his wife. In the image, anyway. In reality, the two were the same height – 1.78m

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theres-something-very-wrong-stamp-10047179

 

[Daenerys Targaryen]

In the engagement and early marriage photos of the couple, the RF/Charles seemed to be quite concerned that he be shot on a step or box so as to appear to be taller than his bride. I remember after the separation, Diana said "Well now I can wear heels" because she always had to wear flats when appearing with Charles (for the same reason).

 

[royal rob]

In that photo she is sitting down and he is standing

 

[Curryong]

I believe she and Charles were about the same height in their stockinged feet weren't they, but Diana was always conscious of the height difference if she wore heels. At least Kate doesn't have that problem!

 

[Rudolph]

Written on Royal Yacht Britannia crested paper and dated August 15, 1981, she wrote: "The honeymoon was a perfect opportunity to catch up on sleep...."

Read more: Princess Diana used honeymoon to 'catch up on sleep' rare letters reveal*

 

[Curryong]

After the pressure of the preparations, of that wedding with the eyes of the world on them it probably was a chance to relax, to laze and graze and sleep.

Nevertheless, by all accounts, I don't think the honeymoon was a glittering success. For the first time this couple, who didn't know each other very well, were alone together and the differences between them, intellectually, emotionally, in personality and practically everything else, started to become glaringly obvious.

It is also lovely to see some more evidence of Diana writing lots of bright and chatty thank you letters to people on the Wales staff who had assisted the couple at various points. She was always meticulous about these as well as her 'bread and butter' letters, and nothing appears forced or false.

 

[Osipi]

I had to kind of snicker reading that. Usually a honeymoon is not synonymous with sleep but more like "coming up for fresh air" now and then. If Charles had written that note, it most likely would have stated that it was a good time to catch up on his reading.

If I remember though, their honeymoon was a rather extended one starting off at Broadlands, then a cruise on Brittania and ended up with a few weeks at Balmoral.

 

[Denville]

She was very tall and being too thin, she looked taller. So I suppose there was a tactful feeling that they should minimise her heigt...

 

[Denville]

They were on honeymoon for about 7 weeks in all. I dont think that they could be making love all the time and both of them were problaby exhausted, Di especially from the pre marital strain and preparations for the wedding.
I don't think it was a massive success though as a honeymoon, because Diana was realising that this was real life and not a movie.. and while she and Charles might have been okish during the yachting bit, reality kicked in at Balmoral and I think she began to get ill and depressed.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Prince Charles 5'10' (1.78 m)
Princess Diana 5'10" (1.78 m)

Exact same height and both 'very tall' if one thinks under 6 feet is 'very tall'. Agree that being thin would have accentuated the 'tallness' so Diana wearing 3" heels would create a 'towering' impression at 6'1" (1.85 m).

Diana being sensitive to the height difference created if she were in heels is a charming sensitivity, indicative of the time, i assume.

 

[Osipi]

Possibly, but Diana was also living, from even before the outset, with the uncomfortable fact that was Camilla.

Personally, I think in the early years, Diana built Camilla up to be much more of a threat than she really was. I believe that Diana very seriously wanted the same closeness and friendship that Charles and Camilla had and tried to attain that by closing out those that were closer to Charles than she perceived herself to be.

Things may have gone a lot more smoothly if only she had really taken an interest in getting to know who her husband was, made an effort to enjoy the things he did and interact and make friends with his friends. In other words, try to fit her world to mesh with his. That would have also been the ticket for Charles to do too.

She really went about things the wrong way.

 

[Denville]

I think she only tried to do that when she was married and began to feel panicked. I think that piror to the marriage she didn't realise perhaps that she would feel inferior to Camilla and threatened by the feeling that Charles had bene and still was very close to her. And that began to extend ot other friends and staff of C's as well.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Possibly, but Diana was also living, from even before the outset, with the uncomfortable fact that was Camilla.

Diana would have been living with the 'uncomfortable fact' of several women, not just Camilla. Diana married an older man who had a romantic history (which Diana was fully aware of when she married). I continue to be surprised how much regarding Diana gets 'explained' via Charles and his prior affections, yet the converse never seems to hold.

Diana knew who she was marrying, the heir to the throne. Previous affections did not bother her when she was presented with his proposal. A lot was on her shoulders as a Spencer to do her familial duty winning this prize, that was Charles. (Consider what it must have been like for Charles to have always been an object of desire, not for himself, but for the social status he would bestow when married. Why no commiseration for his predicament, which was a considerable one imo)?

 

[Daenerys Targaryen]

It is VERY hard for me to 'commiserate with his predicament' of being the most eligible bachelor in the world and heir to the British throne. Especially when he was having illicit relationships, of one sort or another, with CPB, Kanga Tyron (both married), and Janet Jenkins at the very least and possibly others which have not become public, while putatively 'searching for a bride'. If one is searching for a bride, they are generally not found in the marital bed of another couple. Perhaps that is just my silly viewpoint, but there it is.

 

[Lady Nimue]

It is VERY hard for me to 'commiserate with his predicament' of being the most eligible bachelor in the world and heir to the British throne.

I find it the easiest thing in the world to so commiserate, because as a woman I have experienced being desired for attributes rather than for who I am. Especially, too, when one considers that Charles was already a sensitive sort, an introvert. Not an easy position for such a one to be in. Why not see it from his position? Maybe it would be easier for you to see the predicament when it is a young woman? Like it will be for several Crown Princesses in 10-15 years?

Especially when he was having illicit relationships, of one sort or another, with CPB, Kanga Tyron (both married), and Janet Jenkins at the very least and possibly others which have not become public, while putatively 'searching for a bride'. If one is searching for a bride, they are generally not found in the marital bed of another couple. Perhaps that is just my silly viewpoint, but there it is.

So you disagree with his cultural sensibilities. That's okay but being angry with (or disapproving of) his actions makes no sense. It is different behavior from what you require in a man (and a woman, I assume, so you would/should be as equally disparaging of Diana and her wanderings post-wedding ceremony, pre-divorce) but that is not the case for all. He was doing nothing wrong by the norms of his aristocratic/royal class, just as Diana would feel free to explore beyond the marital bed very soon after the heir was born, and happily did so for a decade without remorse or regret. Diana married him knowing full well about his dalliances, so if it didn't matter enough to her, why should it matter to anyone else? A question.

 

[Daenerys Targaryen]

I am not PERSONALLY angry with him. You have zero basis to speculate whether I am angry with either Charles or Diana. I am just joining the conversation.

 

[Katrianna]

I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and corresponding with his mentors. For a young woman out in the middle of the ocean, that was not what she envisioned for a honeymoon, certainly not the picture of fun she had looked forward to. I think she was rebuked by either Charles or his staff for spending too much time with the help. Remember, Diana caused dismay to the Royal staff at Buck House when spending time chatting with the kitchen staff there. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading these anecdotes in either a magazine or one of the many books about Diana.

 

[Dman]

I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and corresponding with his mentors. For a young woman out in the middle of the ocean, that was not what she envisioned for a honeymoon, certainly not the picture of fun she had looked forward to. I think she was rebuked by either Charles or his staff for spending too much time with the help. Remember, Diana caused dismay to the Royal staff at Buck House when spending time chatting with the kitchen staff there. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading these anecdotes in either a magazine or one of the many books about Diana.

I think Diana simply found royal staff fun and easy to talk to. I think those stiff years within the royal family melted away with time. I think the family's interaction with staff is good thing, but it was just frowned upon in those days.

Charles and Diana's honeymoon may have started off a little stiff and weird, but if anyone comes across some of the very intimate photos of the two of them on their honeymoon, you will see things changed up pretty quick. They had some fun though.

 

[MARG]

Was he indeed having affairs with all those women at the same time? Doubt it. Was he actively looking for a bride, yes. Did Diana know about his friends, his personal life, absolutely, if for no other reason that he had dated her older sister and she was the next door neighbor. As for being the most eligible bachelor? I think both Charles sons,William and Harry. could vouch for the coldness of being pursued for what they are, what they have and not who they are.

It is my belief the Diana was the type of woman who never understood that love expands exponentially, that just because she was his wife, he didn't still hold her own sister, let alone Camilla, et al in close and warm friendship. Diana's first moves were to try to separate him from his closest friends, male and female both. She was angered when he took advice from close advisors. It seems as if she saw any outside friendships, male or female, as taking attention, affection and even love from her.

You see it with his sons as well. They hold dearly to those who have proved their true friendship throughout the years. They too rely on those true and close friendships based in their earliest years at school. It also explains their readiness to overlook their glaring faults as long as betrayal isn't one of them.

If you marry prince charming with the intention of turning him into something else, you are doomed to fail.

 

[Denville]

It is VERY hard for me to 'commiserate with his predicament' of being the most eligible bachelor in the world and heir to the British throne. Especially when he was having illicit relationships, of one sort or another, with CPB, Kanga Tyron (both married), and Janet Jenkins at the very least and possibly others which have not become public, while putatively 'searching for a bride'. If one is searching for a bride, they are generally not found in the marital bed of another couple. Perhaps that is just my silly viewpoint, but there it is.

he was dating, like most men do. he had a few affairs with married women like a lot of men do. Every woman that he took out was nto a serious candidate for marriage, and didn't have to be.

 

[Denville]

I seem to remember Diana spent quite a lot of time while on Britannia with the crew members, just chatting with them and hanging out. The reason being Charles spent much time reading his serious books and many books about Diana.

I tink that Charles had hoped they'd read together, or that she would read something and he would read HIS books. But Diana wasn't much of a reader and preferred to chat to people. She was rebuked by the staff at the Palaces for spending time in the kitchen because some of them felt that she should be on HER side of the Palace learning her trade as Princess and not chatting with the staff

 

[Skippyboo]

If you are working in the kitchen of the palace trying to prepare food, you really don't need a Royal trying to chit chat with you. It's your butt that's going to be fired if you can't finish your work.

Just use Downton Abbey as an example, the Earl and Countess never went into the kitchen and Mrs Pattimore was perfectly fine with it.

 

[Curryong]

It's all very well to say that Charles expected/wanted his young wife to read and discuss his books with him. Did he ever bother to find out if she was interested in the works of psychology etc that he loved during the time the couple dated? Most couples discuss likes and dislikes in films, music, books etc quite early in the relationship.

There aren't too many twenty year olds, especially those not interested in philosophy, who would read van der Post and Jung with great eagerness at any time, especially on their honeymoon. And if he did expect Diana to plunge into reading them then that just proves how little he knew her.

Or did Charles expect that Diana, by osmosis, simply because she had married him, to turn into a sort of miniature of himself? If he did, then he was foolish.

He wrote to a friend from Britannia something about Diana going here and there on the ship while he was on the deck, wrapped in pure joy in the works of van der Post. There, written large, is the chasm between their personas and the reason why they should never have married.

 

[Curryong]

Several posters seem to think that Diana knew all about Charles's dalliances and his affair with Camilla Parker Bowles during the dating period before the engagement. In fact, from all that I've read, it only dawned on her just how close he and Camilla were when they were engaged and she became extremely upset about it.

Also, just because they were neighbours at Sandringham when Diana was a child doesn't mean she knew all about the ins and outs of the Royal Family. A few play dates with Andrew in early childhood at Sandringham does not make for comprehensive knowledge about Charles, who was over a decade older and away at university. The Spencers moved to Althorp in Northamptonshire when Diana was about 14 anyway, as her father inherited the earldom at that time.

Also, Charles did not have the sort of 'friendship' with her sister Sarah that he had with Camilla, nor did they have a close friendship after their romance ended and certainly not after Sarah married.